Some suggestions For Curing The Nyquil Meta ( Leave your own Below )

[Witch of Steam.5138]

The " Nyquil Meta " As I've dubbed it 

Is the Dubious And Soul-grinding Tedium of fighting Nothing But Boon-ball Zergs with Spammed projectile Reflects. 

It's a Meta that renders Most ranged Builds completely Useless , and when it comes to Zergs, this means about 85% of your damage Output. It leaves you with a handfull of Staff Ele skills, a Revenant Hammer skill or two , A handfull of Necro skills ( And staff if you take unblockable Marks) , and Maybe Ranger Longbow 5 , which is somehow more potent than the Arrow carts. 

So Instead of Blindly complaining I've considered some things that MIGHT Help against the Slow Rot that's consuming what's left of WvW : 

- Buff Arrow Cart Damage.  While very simple on the surface, this would actually go a very long way in dealing with the Blob issue.. Arrow carts as they are may as well be a suggestion instead of a weapon .. Sensually whispering into your enemy's ear to " maybe back off please... if you feel like it " . Injecting some power into the Siege would maybe make them a little more useful than the Team Benchwarmer.. As well as Not affect the small-scale very much. Arrow carts really only come out when there's LOTS of people to hit. 

- Decrease Concentration Effectiveness in WvW. This would probably be the magic Bullet for both Boon Blobs And That pesky Celestial roamer problem. I can't really see too many downsides to this , So if you know any that aren't " But my Gank Buld won't be as strong 😞 " Let me know! Trying to do some brainstorming here. 

- Increase the strength of the Guild Auras a bit.. This would give a slightly stronger edge to defending groups and incentivize More WvW related upgrades for Guilds. It would also encourage claiming camps more , as suddenly there's an extra benefit beyond getting that +5 Supply . The issue would be that this Might make defending too strong in some cases, depending on how much of a buff it's given. 

Other ideas or suggestions would be nice. 

Because we certainly don't see Anet coming up with anything. 

[Xenesis.6389]

It stifles projectile and condition builds. The only effective skills to use are ground aoes and melee, but then then aegis gets spammed too to block everything especially if you're using burn and it gets converted to aegis...

 

As for the suggestions, good luck with that, anet is on the side of the fence with the boon ballers, that's who they run with in wvw, that's who they take suggestions from.

Fight people don't want siege on them, they're the reason why it's damage was nerfed in the first place. AC's should hit decently and make you think twice about standing in that area for too long, they're the actual anti personnel siege to use on people.

Support people in boon balls want concentration, and they make up the core of every single group.

Guild auras have been complained about for years, also anet and fight guilds don't want defense to be strong, they want fights to happen more often inside objectives(why even have fancy objectives with walls if you just want fights to happen 90% of the time inside them?), it's a miracle it hasn't been nerf yet tbh. This is why anet sees no problem with fight guilds choochoo train track over pugs in keeps for 20 mins.

Adding concentration and expertise to celestial was a big mistake to begin with, and not even adjusting the other attributes appropriately, but I guess anet wanted to bring up the "skill level" of players by making them more tanky to survive longer.

 

We've made numerous suggestions about the nyquil meta, that only ends up nerfing the other side of the coin, more boon strips gets nerfed next patch. 🙄

[Justine.6351]

Seems to me like they need to nerf damage more.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

3 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

Seems to me like they need to nerf damage more.

nah the only fix would be to buff damage by roughly 5000%. so stuff dies. u guy are incapable of understanding that u cannot kill a 50 ppl group, barely mattering how bad they are, with 10 ppl, as they can spam u down with cc, and just heal out your dmg, even pretty bad supports and dps are capable of doing this at fin

but if u could just get kills at successful bombing, then good dps players on your side would gets several full kills with every successful bomb. right now? one single set up bomb from 1-2 people normally is barely capable of generating a single down into even just 15 people groups. and there is the issue.
__
 

also whatever this nydlddulil meta in your opinion seems to be idk what u mean. the meta is dead boring, and just getting worse soon

i see it rather as problematic that we have 99% only random clouds to fight everywhere. even if they're blobsized, a cloud is a cloud and its horribly boring and annoying .. everyone plays self sustaining kite range builds, maximum no risk and no fun. wonderful. that way it isn't world vs world, rather rambocloud vs rambocloud

like all these suggestions in the first post are horribly bad. it would rather make everything worse.

[Justine.6351]

5 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

nah the only fix would be to buff damage by roughly 5000%. so stuff dies. u guy are incapable of understanding that u cannot kill a 50 ppl group, barely mattering how bad they are, with 10 ppl, as they can spam u down with cc, and just heal out your dmg, even pretty bad supports and dps are capable of doing this at fin

but if u could just get kills at successful bombing, then good dps players on your side would gets several full kills with every successful bomb. right now? one single set up bomb from 1-2 people normally is barely capable of generating a single down into even just 15 people groups. and there is the issue.
__
 

also whatever this nydlddulil meta in your opinion seems to be idk what u mean. the meta is dead boring, and just getting worse soon

i see it rather as problematic that we have 99% only random clouds to fight everywhere. even if they're blobsized, a cloud is a cloud and its horribly boring and annoying .. everyone plays self sustaining kite range builds, maximum no risk and no fun. wonderful. that way it isn't world vs world, rather rambocloud vs rambocloud

like all these suggestions in the first post are horribly bad. it would rather make everything worse.

It only game,

Why u has Toby mad?

[Dawdler.8521]

6 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

nah the only fix would be to buff damage by roughly 5000%. so stuff dies. u guy are incapable of understanding that u cannot kill a 50 ppl group, barely mattering how bad they are, with 10 ppl, as they can spam u down with cc, and just heal out your dmg, even pretty bad supports and dps are capable of doing this at fin

but if u could just get kills at successful bombing, then good dps players on your side would gets several full kills with every successful bomb. right now? one single set up bomb from 1-2 people normally is barely capable of generating a single down into even just 15 people groups. and there is the issue.
__
 

also whatever this nydlddulil meta in your opinion seems to be idk what u mean. the meta is dead boring, and just getting worse soon

i see it rather as problematic that we have 99% only random clouds to fight everywhere. even if they're blobsized, a cloud is a cloud and its horribly boring and annoying .. everyone plays self sustaining kite range builds, maximum no risk and no fun. wonderful. that way it isn't world vs world, rather rambocloud vs rambocloud

like all these suggestions in the first post are horribly bad. it would rather make everything worse.

The WvW world where a single autoattack from a longbow will instantly kill you - preferably without downstate, of course.

Now add friendly fire and player collision on top of that and it would be GLORIOUS.

[subversiontwo.7501]

Ok, so let's dissect some of the stuff you're saying here:

21 hours ago, Witch of Steam.5138 said:

Is the Dubious And Soul-grinding Tedium of fighting Nothing But Boon-ball Zergs with Spammed projectile Reflects. 

The "meta" that you hate (the GWEN, the GREN etc.) uses parties of 5 and tend to have 2 spots that primarily apply boons and 2 spots that primarily remove boons. It is what you would call balanced (to fight other such groups). If you don't understand that you have not understood the meta.

21 hours ago, Witch of Steam.5138 said:

It's a Meta that renders Most ranged Builds completely Useless , and when it comes to Zergs, this means about 85% of your damage Output.

The "meta" is created by other players. If you play a specific class you can learn to play it yourself or you can play whatever the other players will help you learn how to play. Those are your choices. Most ranged builds are not useless, players are just not good enough to play them (and that's fine). We don't need a game where every single one of the 9 classes or 36 specs can be dumbed down to 4-5 roles just because some snowflake want their one preferred spec to fit into a meta that some other players have suggested on a website to help you learn WvW.

Spoiler

There are no AoE skills that are as strong as eg., Rapid Fire (Ranger LB2) because things like reflects exist. The devs could easily remove reflects but then they would also nerf things like Rapid Fire down to match its new level of application. People here don't seem to understand that.

Most AoE skills come with other restrictions like highly-telegraphed graphics and few-second delays. It is, for example, much easier to dodge an Ice Spike (Ele Staff, Water 2) than it is to dodge a Rapid Fire while something like Well of Suffering (Necro) has multi-hit damage like Rapid Fire but its damage is lower, it applies slower (6s, no quickness) and so on. Again, that's balance and a balance that people here just don't seem to understand: Wanting advantages of other abilities without their drawbacks.

You can see this example when people complain about the meta being "melee" too, since there is not a single melee-damage role in the meta: The hated GREN includes the ranged Necro and the ranged Revenant. The meta clearly isn't melee because the "meta damage builds" are ranged.  So when people complain about the meta just stacking boons and rolling over them, they don't seem to understand what the meta actually is.

That has nothing to do with balance. It has to do with some players only playing eg., Ranger and being mad about some commander not prioritising their one weapon/spec for help, praise and spots. They get mad when asked to pick another class to learn the basics on in a pickup squad and they don't have the friends or know-how to carve out a spot for themselves (so they end up stacking solo on tag and being angry about projectiles not travelling unhindered from tag to tag). They may also opt to play alone in a cloud, being angry about getting chased by groups, but what are your opponents supposed to do, just stand there and let you shoot at them? It's not like some superspeeding Scrappers makes it easy for lumbering groups to catch speedy proper roaming builds.

 

21 hours ago, Witch of Steam.5138 said:

- Buff Arrow Cart Damage. 

All AC's ever did was to affect who could stand in them and make groups less accepting of lower-tanked builds. They never threatened builds on whatever Minstrel-equivalent and only ever pushed players away from daring to play whatever Berserker. Even if the devs were to find a way (like making AC's just hit through AR and bleed HP directly or w/e) what are you hoping to achieve? It would just make attackers use Rams less and Catapults more. Even today alot of attacking groups just use Catapults even when they don't need to just out of the ease. Do we want even less Rams and even more Catas? It becomes nonsense when Catas are already used more than Rams. Stronger AC would also encourage more use of tanky stats like Minstrel, Condi or Cele and discourage slower builds from using eg., Berserker.

21 hours ago, Witch of Steam.5138 said:

This would probably be the magic Bullet for both Boon Blobs And That pesky Celestial roamer problem. I can't really see too many downsides to this , So if you know any that aren't " But my Gank Buld won't be as strong 😞

A "gank" build is a build made to attack lone players with a couple of friends and disengage. So "gank builds" would be builds like LB Rangers, Rifle Engies/Thieves/Warriors or all other types of Berserker/Marauder/Dragon hit-and-run builds. The type of builds most teary-eyed players who huddle together on this forum seems to play and want to remove all counters to. This, again, seems to be more of just a shouting in the dark thing than understanding what's being said.

21 hours ago, Witch of Steam.5138 said:

Increase the strength of the Guild Auras a bit.. This would give a slightly stronger edge to defending groups and incentivize More WvW related upgrades for Guilds.

So, the type of guild most prone to play the "meta" and huddle up in a "ball" under stat bonuses around their own towers and keeps is the type of guild and behaviour that you want to increase the strength of, are you sure? It contradicts most other things you've said.

21 hours ago, Witch of Steam.5138 said:

Other ideas or suggestions would be nice. 

Because we certainly don't see Anet coming up with anything. 

Well, I'd say that Anet does good not listening to the drivel comming out of this forum where we have posts that completely contradict themselves and can't seem to figure out what's what while just spurting words that people assume means something "bad" that they can get pity points for here.

On a related note, I don't know if you guys see this as much as I do but the delay of Alliances seems to have put quite a hamper on guilds and public tags' will to tag up again. As a result more and more of the content that I see is devolving into clouds and PPT, with less variety. So, the overall amount of groups with boons, reflects and the like seem to be getting rarer, not more common. Not that balance has anything to do with it and it can rather just be chalked up to ArenaNet's lack of development. It just puts this thread in another funny light. Are we seeing more organised groups somewhere?

Edited October 2, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Strider Pj.2193]

13 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

nah the only fix would be to buff damage by roughly 5000%. so stuff dies. u guy are incapable of understanding that u cannot kill a 50 ppl group, barely mattering how bad they are, with 10 ppl, as they can spam u down with cc, and just heal out your dmg, even pretty bad supports and dps are capable of doing this at fin

but if u could just get kills at successful bombing, then good dps players on your side would gets several full kills with every successful bomb. right now? one single set up bomb from 1-2 people normally is barely capable of generating a single down into even just 15 people groups. and there is the issue.
__
 

also whatever this nydlddulil meta in your opinion seems to be idk what u mean. the meta is dead boring, and just getting worse soon

i see it rather as problematic that we have 99% only random clouds to fight everywhere. even if they're blobsized, a cloud is a cloud and its horribly boring and annoying .. everyone plays self sustaining kite range builds, maximum no risk and no fun. wonderful. that way it isn't world vs world, rather rambocloud vs rambocloud

like all these suggestions in the first post are horribly bad. it would rather make everything worse.

@Justine.6351

Whioooooosssshhhhhhhh….,,

 

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

heals are too strong.

[Junkpile.7439]

Every player should bring their own heals and boons. Some classes could have single target ally heals so you would actually need to think while playing support.

[Justine.6351]

4 hours ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

Every player should bring their own heals and boons. Some classes could have single target ally heals so you would actually need to think while playing support.

Nobody would play a single target heal build, they would just play any other that were pbaoe. Idk if anyone has played CA cosmic ray but that is about as close as you can get to single target.

[Kulvar.1239]

On 10/1/2022 at 4:43 PM, Witch of Steam.5138 said:

The " Nyquil Meta " As I've dubbed it 

Is the Dubious And Soul-grinding Tedium of fighting Nothing But Boon-ball Zergs with Spammed projectile Reflects. 

It's a Meta that renders Most ranged Builds completely Useless , and when it comes to Zergs, this means about 85% of your damage Output. It leaves you with a handfull of Staff Ele skills, a Revenant Hammer skill or two , A handfull of Necro skills ( And staff if you take unblockable Marks) , and Maybe Ranger Longbow 5 , which is somehow more potent than the Arrow carts.

ANet seem to have a weird reluctance to allow range weapons to be good in group content.

Hence why the PvE META since forever has been to have everyone on the same pixel.

[Aeolus.3615]

21 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

heals are too strong.

Remove minstrells from game, that's the reason why heals are "strong".

Edited October 3, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Kayowin.9217]

On 10/1/2022 at 11:08 AM, Xenesis.6389 said:

It stifles projectile and condition builds. The only effective skills to use are ground aoes and melee, but then then aegis gets spammed too to block everything especially if you're using burn and it gets converted to aegis...

 

As for the suggestions, good luck with that, anet is on the side of the fence with the boon ballers, that's who they run with in wvw, that's who they take suggestions from.

Fight people don't want siege on them, they're the reason why it's damage was nerfed in the first place. AC's should hit decently and make you think twice about standing in that area for too long, they're the actual anti personnel siege to use on people.

Support people in boon balls want concentration, and they make up the core of every single group.

Guild auras have been complained about for years, also anet and fight guilds don't want defense to be strong, they want fights to happen more often inside objectives(why even have fancy objectives with walls if you just want fights to happen 90% of the time inside them?), it's a miracle it hasn't been nerf yet tbh. This is why anet sees no problem with fight guilds choochoo train track over pugs in keeps for 20 mins.

Adding concentration and expertise to celestial was a big mistake to begin with, and not even adjusting the other attributes appropriately, but I guess anet wanted to bring up the "skill level" of players by making them more tanky to survive longer.

 

We've made numerous suggestions about the nyquil meta, that only ends up nerfing the other side of the coin, more boon strips gets nerfed next patch. 🙄

Couldn't have been said in a more clear and concise manner.  Absolute PROPS to the brains at Anet behind the idea of nerfing the Scourge tools that give PUGS a way to fight back against BOON ball.   If your idea is to drive PUGS further away from the gamemode so you just have fight guilds roam around maps in boredom looking for fights, you are doing a smashup job.....