Why drag out fixes for months?

[Borked.6824]

Using this purely as an example, as I know many other specs have similar issues.  I'll cut to the chase: Willbender is literally pointless.  I finally accepted this fact earlier as I discovered I was just habitually playing my Harbinger more and more, and hadn't even logged onto my main class in days because I keep getting goaded into playing specs I don't like (we know which ones).  It's a problem, because I really don't like the idea of getting shamed into not playing classes you enjoy. What's the difference?  One has use, and the other does not, at all.  And that's actually a stretch with the exception of the few clear meta specs.  When specs like Virtuoso and Mechanist exist, there's again, literally no point to play a dps-only class, that by the way doesn't even do good dps.  These guys are pulling 3-4 times more dps than the average profession, and providing at least some utility to groups.  Vast doesn't even describe the ocean of difference between the best and the worst here.

 

So what's my point here?  This pointless spec could easily have a modicum of purpose by making a couple tweaks.  Phoenix Protocol doesn't work.  It was stated numerous times before release a half a year ago.  Nobody uses it.  Adjust it to have more duration, or add F3 activation to it...something.  Put alac on OH sword attacks...  Doesn't hurt anything, mostly because Mechanist exists, which is probably the real problem here.   There's any number of tiny little things that take a couple afternoons of ideating and coding to implement.  Why do we need to wait months to have harmless changes made?  This kind of thing should have been hotfixed months ago.  The fix is going to happen anyway, and you know why...This spec has literally no purpose and hasn't had purpose since its birth.  

 

I'm a designer by trade myself.  If I make pointless things, I get fired.  Why do I not get fired?  Because I solve problems and don't let them fester.  I test and get feedback in days, not half years.  How does one go home at the end of the week at Anet and feel they've done a good job?  We're not solving kitten here.  Nobody dies if you're wrong.  Especially if you're wrong coming out of the gate... Sounds like I'm being impatient, but it's actually just more confusion as to what's going on behind the curtain.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

That is one of those weird things that I've been wondering.  I know that bugfixes can be difficult to lock down.  I know that vague things like "clunkyness" can mean animation changes, which will take some work.  However, a lot of these changes are just number tweaks, and those are as easy as changing 1 or 2 values in the game's code.  Adding or removing boons/conditions are just as easy as copy/pasting the boon/condition code and applying it to that skill.  There's a lot of skills and effects in the game, but most of the work for these balance patches could be accomplished in one full day.  There's a couple of theories to explain this:

1. Bureaucracy.  This one is doubtful, though, because I've all seen the discord leaks.
2. Spaghetti string code combined with poor documentation.  I say it should only take a day, but that is under the assumption that everything is indexed well and there's good documentation on what does what.  
3. Anet might be one of those workplaces that's turned into an adult daycare center now that the machine runs mostly autonomously.
4. (Tinfoil Hat) It's all a lie.  There is no balance team, because it doesn't pull in money.  The balance changes we see are mostly done in spare time while the workers do other things.  It's more profitable put on the front of a balance team than it is to actually have one.  Just say something on the forums every week and people will heap praise upon you.

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Blood Red Arachnid.2493

[ascii.1369]

On the one hand, I agree with the confusion over why certain changes take months. As has been already said, many of these changes are a days work. I of course have no insght into what the code base looks like either, but how bad can it be. I have worked on software projects where people were rotated in and out almost monthly. Yet even then, with zero documentation and no way to contact the people that left, we didn't have these kind of timeframes.

 

On the other hand, I think players also need to change their attitude towards how they look at professions. It seems to me that more and more people refuse to learn a profession as a whole, and instead tie themselfs to a single specialization. People are no longer Guardian or Mesmer players, they're Willbender or Chrono players. Frankly, I think this is completely unreasonable. If your profession has a perfectly good raid build, but you refuse to play it, because that's not "your" specialization, that is a you-problem not an issues with the game.

[Zaret.1450]

14 hours ago, Borked.6824 said:

Using this purely as an example, as I know many other specs have similar issues.  I'll cut to the chase: Willbender is literally pointless.  I finally accepted this fact earlier as I discovered I was just habitually playing my Harbinger more and more, and hadn't even logged onto my main class in days because I keep getting goaded into playing specs I don't like (we know which ones).  It's a problem, because I really don't like the idea of getting shamed into not playing classes you enjoy. What's the difference?  One has use, and the other does not, at all.  And that's actually a stretch with the exception of the few clear meta specs.  When specs like Virtuoso and Mechanist exist, there's again, literally no point to play a dps-only class, that by the way doesn't even do good dps.  These guys are pulling 3-4 times more dps than the average profession, and providing at least some utility to groups.  Vast doesn't even describe the ocean of difference between the best and the worst here.

 

So what's my point here?  This pointless spec could easily have a modicum of purpose by making a couple tweaks.  Phoenix Protocol doesn't work.  It was stated numerous times before release a half a year ago.  Nobody uses it.  Adjust it to have more duration, or add F3 activation to it...something.  Put alac on OH sword attacks...  Doesn't hurt anything, mostly because Mechanist exists, which is probably the real problem here.   There's any number of tiny little things that take a couple afternoons of ideating and coding to implement.  Why do we need to wait months to have harmless changes made?  This kind of thing should have been hotfixed months ago.  The fix is going to happen anyway, and you know why...This spec has literally no purpose and hasn't had purpose since its birth.  

 

I'm a designer by trade myself.  If I make pointless things, I get fired.  Why do I not get fired?  Because I solve problems and don't let them fester.  I test and get feedback in days, not half years.  How does one go home at the end of the week at Anet and feel they've done a good job?  We're not solving kitten here.  Nobody dies if you're wrong.  Especially if you're wrong coming out of the gate... Sounds like I'm being impatient, but it's actually just more confusion as to what's going on behind the curtain.

Well i think you have a point but the example you made is kinda bad.

Willbender, as much as i like it and all, has its own purpose in guardian, a fast guardian for pvp and wvw, and there it is incredibly strong, at least wvw where i play because pvp and me... meh. Back to the point, its true willbender and a ton of power builds and elites need a buff or a rework, mostly in pve, but on wvw and pvp some need help too, willbender needs a viable pve build, id say a dps one because fb is already the boon king in pve, making willbender a huge alac source isnt realy needed, just make it viable and good to go, and the same for dps, it competes with dh so just make both viable, good, around 36k or 37k would be fine.

But willbender as a roamer in wvw is utterly absurd, it runs faster than a thief and hits like a truck while also having tons of blocks and invulneravilities, so you could say it does its work perfectly well.

If i had to put an example of something that had problems id say vindi, that only dodge hurt it a lot and its gonna be solved, ranger pets also got a little love, and overall i think theyre doing a decent job, slow for sure, but well better slow and good than fast and suddenly giving willbender 50k +alac+inmortality, or making pets the new meca 3.0 or making vindi a rocket that is played on air and never lands.

Id say wait till all the changes are done, even if its slow, and then we can judge them clearly

[Ruisenior.6342]

    While I agree with almost everything you said, in my opinion willbender is the most powerfull guardian spec for solo open world content by a large margin, and I'm having so much fun playing it. My only complaint of this spec are most of his utility skills besides whirling light that is a must have and maybe roiling light.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Ruisenior.6342

[the krytan assassin.9235]

Had to chuckle abit when i read it was a Guardian that is complaining about its class not getting the attention it deserves. 

But overall i have to agree. There are plenty of skills/traits that havent been working properly for years now that deserve some TLC. Some could argue the "spaghetti code" is the problem, but i'd argue it's mostly due to a small dev balance team and a lack of knowledge of game balancing. 

 

[Mell.4873]

Bugs are inexcusable and like @Blood Red Arachnid.2493  pointed out it is probably due to lack of knowledge due to new staff not being able to understand old poorly documented code (this is my Job and I understand trying to fix things you don't understand never goes well) . 

I think the large majority of what you describe as delaying balance is due to the simple fact they wait now before attempting to fix balance. You never know how the class is really being played untill they have there behind the scenes data. I mean look how long it took for Engineer to dominate the game, basically it was always op but the rifle buff highlight this the most. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Valisha.8650]

a) Laziness, OR

b) Incompetence, OR

c) They genuinely try their best, but the game code is such a mess that even a tiny change takes tons of work.

 

Literally no other rational option possible.

[Xenesis.6389]

Yeah willbenders are totally weak sauce...

 

 

[SlayerXX.7138]

What I know from the leaks, there is limited bandwidth for changes that go into a patch. That is always full.

My assumption is: If nobody fights for the small bugs or changes, this bandwidth gets used up by all kind of changes.

More assumptions: That bandwidth is probably just a handful of actual programmers, who have to implement changes trough a jungle of spaghetti code and tech debt. So Everything that isn't a numbers change needs to go trough a limited amount of coders. Even "text changes" go trough these Bandwidth and the balance team is not able to change text if I remember the leaks correctly. 

Tech debt is heavy, Code spaghetti.

[Mell.4873]

7 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

What I know from the leaks, there is limited bandwidth for changes that go into a patch. That is always full.

My assumption is: If nobody fights for the small bugs or changes, this bandwidth gets used up by all kind of changes.

More assumptions: That bandwidth is probably just a handful of actual programmers, who have to implement changes trough a jungle of spaghetti code and tech debt. So Everything that isn't a numbers change needs to go trough a limited amount of coders. Even "text changes" go trough these Bandwidth and the balance team is not able to change text if I remember the leaks correctly. 

Tech debt is heavy, Code spaghetti.

Its just normally programmer work flow. I mean I see it in my job and I just code spreadsheets. 

If enough problems occur with something then someone will eventually try re-obtain the knowledge to fix it. I think the worse thing that Gw2 ever did was fire a bunch of people, this isn't Bethesda where they could move onto another project which intern means that knowledge is not lost forever. Documenting it only takes you so far it is better to keep programming staff rather than removing them to save money since training someone costs 10x more. 

[SlayerXX.7138]

7 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Its just normally programmer work flow. I mean I see it in my job and I just code spreadsheets.

Is it? That text changes go through coders seems abnormal  to me. Even if it is normal, there still seems to be not enough actual programmer on the Anet team to implement the changes the balance team might want to do.

[Mell.4873]

56 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Is it? That text changes go through coders seems abnormal  to me. Even if it is normal, there still seems to be not enough actual programmer on the Anet team to implement the changes the balance team might want to do.

Exactly to many people left that understood how the code worked. All the documentation in the world will never trump real experience.

I imagine that Gw2 is coded for efficiency so a lot of the descriptions are coded with a reference to a Database (localization) which mean someone needs to find the skill code, find the entry address, find the entry, edit it.
It might even be worse they could be hard coding the localization into the skills which I doubt but it still a lot of work to find the correct entry and edit it.

Anyway I imagine it will be in a hotfix sine they probably just forgot.

[Nova.4608]

It's simple. GW2, sadly, isn't exactly in a healthy state and hasn't been for a while. 

Balance and fixes do not bring in any cash unlike new content and expansions and as such they have a lower priority.

It's just a cost evaluation. That's all there is to it.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Nova.4608

[LSD.4673]

Dragging it out gives the illusion of dealing with somethinf to keep people strung along. The reality seems to be that they do the absolute bare minimum and talk it up with blog posts every now and then. 

 

See: WvW restructuring, the "roadmaps", etc.

[Mell.4873]

4 hours ago, Nova.4608 said:

It's simple. GW2, sadly, isn't exactly in a healthy state and hasn't been for a while. 

Balance and fixes do not bring in any cash unlike new content and expansions and as such they have a lower priority.

It's just a cost evaluation. That's all there is to it.

That and what isn't broken doesn't need fixing. I mean look at the silly Mirage nerf. They should have just tweeked the numbers rather than removing an entire dodge from the PvP version. 

I mean Scrapper changes (nerf) where perfect and the fact they spent all that development time trying to remove the unique Gyro AoE's was a waste of time. 

[Obtena.7952]

On 10/4/2022 at 12:17 PM, Valisha.8650 said:

a) Laziness, OR

b) Incompetence, OR

c) They genuinely try their best, but the game code is such a mess that even a tiny change takes tons of work.

 

Literally no other rational option possible.

d) None of those. Literally other ration options exist.

Software development has patch cycles. They don't just flip changes in a day. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[shion.2084]

On 10/2/2022 at 10:58 PM, Borked.6824 said:

Using this purely as an example, as I know many other specs have similar issues.  I'll cut to the chase: Willbender is literally pointless.  I finally accepted this fact earlier as I discovered I was just habitually playing my Harbinger more and more, and hadn't even logged onto my main class in days because I keep getting goaded into playing specs I don't like (we know which ones).  It's a problem, because I really don't like the idea of getting shamed into not playing classes you enjoy. What's the difference?  One has use, and the other does not, at all.  And that's actually a stretch with the exception of the few clear meta specs.  When specs like Virtuoso and Mechanist exist, there's again, literally no point to play a dps-only class, that by the way doesn't even do good dps.  These guys are pulling 3-4 times more dps than the average profession, and providing at least some utility to groups.  Vast doesn't even describe the ocean of difference between the best and the worst here.

 

So what's my point here?  This pointless spec could easily have a modicum of purpose by making a couple tweaks.  Phoenix Protocol doesn't work.  It was stated numerous times before release a half a year ago.  Nobody uses it.  Adjust it to have more duration, or add F3 activation to it...something.  Put alac on OH sword attacks...  Doesn't hurt anything, mostly because Mechanist exists, which is probably the real problem here.   There's any number of tiny little things that take a couple afternoons of ideating and coding to implement.  Why do we need to wait months to have harmless changes made?  This kind of thing should have been hotfixed months ago.  The fix is going to happen anyway, and you know why...This spec has literally no purpose and hasn't had purpose since its birth.  

 

I'm a designer by trade myself.  If I make pointless things, I get fired.  Why do I not get fired?  Because I solve problems and don't let them fester.  I test and get feedback in days, not half years.  How does one go home at the end of the week at Anet and feel they've done a good job?  We're not solving kitten here.  Nobody dies if you're wrong.  Especially if you're wrong coming out of the gate... Sounds like I'm being impatient, but it's actually just more confusion as to what's going on behind the curtain.

You are wondering why fixes take months?  Consider the current balance patch which took months…. And the nerf to mechanist accidentally made them stronger, the help to mesmers broke their skills, they made a new class …. The leap frog accidentally….. do you really think more frequent patches is a good idea?????

[the krytan assassin.9235]

6 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

You are wondering why fixes take months?  Consider the current balance patch which took months…. And the nerf to mechanist accidentally made them stronger, the help to mesmers broke their skills, they made a new class …. The leap frog accidentally….. do you really think more frequent patches is a good idea?????

well apparently they only needed 1 day to hotfix some of the problems post patch. Also any vet gw2 player could've told you that reducing the endurance cost by 50% on vindi would result in some issues due to their quick endurance regen. 

 

it's not like we're asking for rocket science, all we want is some balance changes made by competent devs. I'm normally against games that frequently swap builds/skill coëfficients, but Anet simply has some catching up to do. There are lots of traits that are still stuck in the pre-HoT era or simply have gotten the nerfhammer over the years making them practically useless. 

[Mutzesputz.2857]

On 10/3/2022 at 4:58 AM, Borked.6824 said:

I'm a designer by trade myself.  If I make pointless things, I get fired.  Why do I not get fired?  Because I solve problems and don't let them fester.  I test and get feedback in days, not half years.  How does one go home at the end of the week at Anet and feel they've done a good job?  We're not solving kitten here.  Nobody dies if you're wrong.  Especially if you're wrong coming out of the gate... Sounds like I'm being impatient, but it's actually just more confusion as to what's going on behind the curtain.

 

Sounds like you dont have much work at work. Im a software developer and sometimes there are just too many things that need changes in your software. So you prioritize. I also got a complaint recently about one "change request" that wasnt implemented yet (that request is months old). Because I had other, more important things to do (I didnt even decide this by myself).

I often read about people saying "why dont you fix XY, it should be so easy to fix". You dont know that. It doesnt even have to be "spaghetti code".

Its like... if I would say "Why does a transplantion of an organ last so many hours? Just pick up the organ from the one person and put it in the other. No big deal".

[Odin.6487]

theres like 5 people who work at anet and 4 of them are on the gem store team. 

 

 

[Vidit.7108]

On 10/2/2022 at 7:58 PM, Borked.6824 said:

There's any number of tiny little things that take a couple afternoons of ideating and coding to implement.  Why do we need to wait months to have harmless changes made?

IIRC They've said (recently) that the build they're working on is several patches ahead and so they don't want to make a lot of hotfixes past a certain window. This is back when they addressed the Warrior banner rework debacle. 

[otto.5684]

On 10/5/2022 at 5:36 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

d) None of those. Literally other ration options exist.

Software development has patch cycles. They don't just flip changes in a day. 

True, but the question is why things do not get fixed in years, not1-3 months. 
 

I think it is lack of resources and knowledge. Balance devs typically do a ton of other stuff. Balance is pushed towards specific schedule. In addition, unless you play the class in detail, any change you make will be theoretical. This is why you see baffling changes that seem to come out of no where. 

[Ghyx.2019]

On 10/7/2022 at 2:37 PM, Odin.6487 said:

theres like 5 people who work at anet and 4 of them are on the gem store team. 

 

 

It honestly does feel like this at times.

[solemn.9670]

Evasive arcana has been bugged/not working in fire traitline for months.

Anet won't patch it because nobody who works there actually plays ele more than once a year