Mechanist is dividing the Community

[Mell.4873]

I don't want to add to the arguing but both sides need to come together with a solution. 

Mechanist can't continue to out DPSing other classes that have a much harder rotation but at the same time it should not be nerfed to point of being unusable by the Low Intensity population. 

I think a good middle ground is it should be able solo Open World content but not be viable in end-game Instanced content as a LI DPS.

This might come in the shape of nerfing the support/utility synergy rather than directly making the DPS worse. Another good alternative is to Nerf is sustain DPS so in a drawn out fight it losses steam. 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Mell.4873

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I don't want to add to the arguing but both sides need to come together with a solution. 

Mechanist can't continue to out DPSing other classes that have a much harder rotation but at the same time it should not be nerfed to point of being unusable by the Low Intensity population. 

I think a good middle ground is it should be able solo Open World content but not be viable in end-game Instanced content as a LI DPS.

This might come in the shape of nerfing the support/utility synergy rather than directly making the dps worse. Another good alternative is to Nerf is sustain DPS so in a drawn out fight it losses steam. 

They don't need to make it non-viable.  Pmech is LI.  It doesn't really matter what you do, that isn't going to change.  And that's fine.  Let it be viable.  Just place it on the low end of the spectrum like we see with other perfectly viable builds like DH, reaper, etc.  It'll still perform far better than its benchmark indicates in actual gameplay and that will always be more true for the less skilled players the build is intended to help.

What they should be aiming for here is a build that is popular for the LI crowd but not a good choice for top tier performance.  Pretty simple, no?

[Infusion.7149]

No , rifle mechanist players show who had played engineer before it became easy mode. That's the actual truth of the matter.

Viable doesn't mean it has to be strong as a full on build. That's what condi shortbow ranger was for years at 33K DPS with all skills used (before banner/spirit changes).
 

[lorddarkflare.9186]

Do we have any benchmarks since A-Net fixed the bugs?

[Mell.4873]

47 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

They don't need to make it non-viable.  Pmech is LI.  It doesn't really matter what you do, that isn't going to change.  And that's fine.  Let it be viable.  Just place it on the low end of the spectrum like we see with other perfectly viable builds like DH, reaper, etc.  It'll still perform far better than its benchmark indicates in actual gameplay and that will always be more true for the less skilled players the build is intended to help.

What they should be aiming for here is a build that is popular for the LI crowd but not a good choice for top tier performance.  Pretty simple, no?

YES

46 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Viable doesn't mean it has to be strong as a full on build. That's what condi shortbow ranger was for years at 33K DPS with all skills used (before banner/spirit changes).
 

That literally describes how I played the game for years with that exact Condition Shortbow Soulbeast build. Until I realized I could be much more useful playing initially Mirage then Chronomancer. Now that is all play in end-game Instanced content.

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

YES

That literally describes how I played the game for years with that exact Condition Shortbow Soulbeast build. Until I realized I could be much more useful playing initially Mirage then Chronomancer. Now that is all play in end-game Instanced content.

Well then your assessment is completely off. Instead of nerfing support aspects they should hit the passive DPS of the mech, which they did. I don't see how the nerf was not justified. It just didn't make it into the game til today due to a "bug".

IMO they could have made ranged jade cannon less damage on the mech instead of nerfing ferocity to impact melee mace builds less, but the way Arenanet did it decreased DPS for all power mechanists (alac mech doesn't use ttrait for ferocity).

On the contrary, condi mechanist needs to be reasonably strong because otherwise engineer will have to resort to triple kit or four kit condi builds. Since the J-Drive variant still does respectable damage that is what is holding DPS mechanist up even if rifle mech is nerfed.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

They don't need to make it non-viable.  Pmech is LI.  It doesn't really matter what you do, that isn't going to change.  And that's fine.  Let it be viable.  Just place it on the low end of the spectrum like we see with other perfectly viable builds like DH, reaper, etc.  It'll still perform far better than its benchmark indicates in actual gameplay and that will always be more true for the less skilled players the build is intended to help.

What they should be aiming for here is a build that is popular for the LI crowd but not a good choice for top tier performance.  Pretty simple, no?

This.

As much as I have expressed concern about the pre-patch performance of the build, I certainly do not want those desiring an LI build for ALL content to be excluded.

Those asking for the spec to be nerfed into oblivion, made non viable, are a very tiny minority and do not represent those who merely wish better balance.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[Incurve Giidis.7829]

1 hour ago, lorddarkflare.9186 said:

Do we have any benchmarks since A-Net fixed the bugs?

seems like 33.5-34k according to sc helpdesk. not too bad considering what it is i guess

besides dps loss ppl are gonna start holding back cc and will rethink using shift signet and pugs will be worse again

[Malus.2184]

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I don't want to add to the arguing but both sides need to come together with a solution. 

Mechanist can't continue to out DPSing other classes that have a much harder rotation but at the same time it should not be nerfed to point of being unusable by the Low Intensity population. 

I think a good middle ground is it should be able solo Open World content but not be viable in end-game Instanced content as a LI DPS.

This might come in the shape of nerfing the support/utility synergy rather than directly making the dps worse. Another good alternative is to Nerf is sustain DPS so in a drawn out fight it losses steam. 

How about, and this is controversial I know, making it so that other specs can achieve similar results without having to break their fingers? No one should ever be rewarded for having a complex rotation. Their rotation should be looked at and made simpler instead.

The rotations for almost everyone else is ridiculous and even a small error results in a relatively big loss since the error will affect your entire rotation that has to be pretty much perfect.

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, Incurve Giidis.7829 said:

seems like 33.5-34k according to sc helpdesk. not too bad considering what it is i guess

besides dps loss ppl are gonna start holding back cc and will rethink using shift signet and pugs will be worse again

It's how it has to be.  Nobody enjoys failing, but it never should have had that sort of impact in the first place.

[AliamRationem.5172]

11 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

How about, and this is controversial I know, making it so that other specs can achieve similar results without having to break their fingers? No one should ever be rewarded for having a complex rotation. Their rotation should be looked at and made simpler instead.

The rotations for almost everyone else is ridiculous and even a small error results in a relatively big loss since the error will affect your entire rotation that has to be pretty much perfect.

I guess it depends on the specifics.  I'm sure I wouldn't mind if my weaver's AA weren't a backloaded chain and if weave self weren't so ridiculous.  But do I want them to redesign the spec so that it isn't high APM with attunement swaps every 4 seconds and all that?  No, thanks.  I play weaver because I like the way it plays.  And in my opinion, it's not unreasonable for a spec that is harder to perform well on to have a bit of an advantage in terms of potential damage.

That doesn't mean I want to gatekeep LI builds out of the meta.  It's just common sense, really.  Mechanist was the perfect example of why we need sensible design like this.  It would still be competitive if it had one of the lowest benchmarks of any elite spec.  Yet because it instead was closer to the top it was dominating.  Why should a spec like pmech be at 38k while condi sword weaver is at 36?  That's not sensible.

[Malus.2184]

6 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I guess it depends on the specifics.  I'm sure I wouldn't mind if my weaver's AA weren't a backloaded chain and if weave self weren't so ridiculous.  But do I want them to redesign the spec so that it isn't high APM with attunement swaps every 4 seconds and all that?  No, thanks.  I play weaver because I like the way it plays.  And in my opinion, it's not unreasonable for a spec that is harder to perform well on to have a bit of an advantage in terms of potential damage.

That doesn't mean I want to gatekeep LI builds out of the meta.  It's just common sense, really.  Mechanist was the perfect example of why we need sensible design like this.  It would still be competitive if it had one of the lowest benchmarks of any elite spec.  Yet because it instead was closer to the top it was dominating.  Why should a spec like pmech be at 38k while condi sword weaver is at 36?  That's not sensible.

To maintain high DPS you have to work around situational utlity like CC break. There's a high performing Ele in my static and they loudly complain that in order to use situational utility they have to work really hard since they have to plan in advance as just using the attunements would hinder your ability to use CC right when it's needed.
And rephrase the question to start with "how come..." instead of "why..." sinmce that's accusatory  and makes you focus more of the accusation instead of the isuse.

 

12 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

How come should a spec like pmech be at 38k while condi sword weaver is at 36? 

How come the Weaver rotation should be so complex for less than the highest gain?

And by the reasoning you used then Untamed should be the highest potential DPS by far since it has a three-digit APM.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

How about, and this is controversial I know, making it so that other specs can achieve similar results without having to break their fingers? No one should ever be rewarded for having a complex rotation. Their rotation should be looked at and made simpler instead.

The rotations for almost everyone else is ridiculous and even a small error results in a relatively big loss since the error will affect your entire rotation that has to be pretty much perfect.

Isn't that what MMO's are all about the most rewarding stuff is the hardest to do, this is why I bring Support Chronomancer into Fractals.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

6 hours ago, Incurve Giidis.7829 said:

seems like 33.5-34k according to sc helpdesk.

 

If these numbers are true, that's is still pretty good actually. 

[Lynx.9058]

9 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I don't want to add to the arguing but both sides need to come together with a solution. 

Mechanist can't continue to out DPSing other classes that have a much harder rotation but at the same time it should not be nerfed to point of being unusable by the Low Intensity population. 

I think a good middle ground is it should be able solo Open World content but not be viable in end-game Instanced content as a LI DPS.

This might come in the shape of nerfing the support/utility synergy rather than directly making the dps worse. Another good alternative is to Nerf is sustain DPS so in a drawn out fight it losses steam. 

Pmech is hardly the only 'viable' LI dps build for instanced content.  Just take a look at harbinger and firebrand, a few more key presses per minute but still well within the "low intensity" domain, and they both do just as much dps.

Here's the changes I think would work:

1. Remove autocast from the mech's abilities.  If any class gets autocast on its pet, it should have been ranger.  The fact that you don't even have to press a button to use the mech's big attacks is one of the main things contributing to the LI/"Afk" dps situations.
 

2. Rework Rifle to have a little less damage on AA, but more damage on 2 and 4.  Yes, this will effect all engineer specs, but I don't think we'd see too many complaints from scrapper or holosmith regarding rifle having the damage moved around a little.  The goal is to make you push more buttons, instead of just sitting there spamming autoattack.

 

3. Fix whatever went wrong with the update that is causing mechs to do more damage now than they used to, even though it  was supposed to drop overall dps.  I think what happened is they weighted more ferocity for the mech through mechanical genius while removing it from Variable Mass Distributor, and the net change ended up being a buff rather than a nerf.

 

4. AAR was already removed from the mech, we're fine there.  I think that and fixing the ferocity change is enough of a DPS loss from the top end.  After the ferocity fix, if damage ends up being too low, some can be added back in with rocket punch.

 

[Infusion.7149]

@Lynx, the "LI" build for necro is not harbinger in my opinion. It' s scourge even from when it was 28K benchmark and people didn't adopt it, which then went up to something akin to 37K or so after the torment PVE changes and now ~35K with full "rotation" (i.e. use all skills). This is a condi build however and with the changes to fractals there's fewer scenarios where conditions are specifically better unless you have NPNG (No pain no gain) or as far as 10 man content : on Twin Largos , SH (movement and incoming DPS), Cairn/MO CM (movement and no real phasing), or Matthias, and XJJ if you are doing CM (due to movement and incoming DPS). This is especially true for lower tier fractals or even the new strike missions where being able to clear additional mobs or phase faster reduces effort significantly.

Nobody can say with a straight face that a power bladesworn with dragon trigger as its main DPS or power berserker with Decapitate spam is an insanely difficult build either. However, it does require far better positioning than a rifle mechanist.

The LI build for:
* ele is more or less condi tempest with only fire attunement , which is about 30K -33K DPS but autoattack is not a significant contribution
* engi is rifle mech obviously where ranged autoattack was making 28K of the ~38K benchmark before fixes
* guardian is condi firebrand which doesn't have a massively high autoattack anymore ; in the past condi scepter willbender had a spam all skills 30K+ build too
* necro is scourge (condi) , is about 35K DPS benchmark but autoattack is a very low damage contribution
* mesmer is condi virtuoso or condition staff mirage with 3 clones up (and dodges) since axe is finnicky with the animations
* ranger is condi shortbow camping soulbeast which is ~33K with full rotation and ~15K DPS autos last I checked ; power soulbeast can get 20-23K DPS autos with sword or greatsword but requires more effort and is melee
* revenant had a condi shortbow renegade with mallyx upkeep doing something akin to 35K at one point but herald with upkeep utilities engaged has always been 28K or so in melee
* thief is staff daredevil (melee) with ~22K or so auto attack or condi specter with a basic skill loop ; condition daredevil is easy in theory but the positioning is all over the place
* warrior is axe berserker more or less where the autoattack is not as significant as decapitate

The trend here is condition builds are more likely the "easy builds" (mostly because as they are designed with sustained damage in mind due to how conditions work) and the easier power builds generally are melee with less burst potential so positioning is still key. Rifle mechanist is a major outlier in that regard.

The mech changes Arenanet made are not going to affect players who really don't care so much about DPS but more about consistency and ease. At just under 38K benchmark DPS and 30K+ just using #2 skill off auto on power mech it was pushing all other power builds out of the picture more or less.

[Kuma.1503]

I don't think Mech is an issue anymore. There's better builds to play if you're going for big numbers. It's a reliable but lower end build now. 

I think Virtuoso is going to be the superior choice for anyone looking to do more than auto attack. Chaos Virt actually got some minor buffs this patch with distort. They have two tools to help them maintain regeneration on themselves which can come in handy if they have some spare daggers to burn and f1 f2 both on CD. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[DaKillaOfHell.5907]

What dividing?
There are those, who know the game, who know the balance, who know, how it is when playing other classes like warrior/ele/mesmer/necro to have good results.

 

And then, there are those who are probably new to the game and just want to faceroll everything by pressing random keys, while not knowing the history of Ursan in GW1...

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

How about, and this is controversial I know, making it so that other specs can achieve similar results without having to break their fingers? No one should ever be rewarded for having a complex rotation. Their rotation should be looked at and made simpler instead.

The rotations for almost everyone else is ridiculous and even a small error results in a relatively big loss since the error will affect your entire rotation that has to be pretty much perfect.

You'd pretty much need to remove all synergies between traits and skills for that to happen, because that's where those rotations come from - you perform them in a particular order because the synergies mean that gives you better results than some other order.

What's more realistic, though, is trying to balance according to what the typical endgame player can achieve with the build in a typical encounter. Does it really matter if there's a build that can theoretically do 45k, if only the top 0.1% of raiders can achieve that and the typical raider is only likely to get 30-35k?

This could also lead to a design principle of having a relatively easy rotation with decent if not great DPS, but with the potential to get more by improving the rotation.

[Malus.2184]

18 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You'd pretty much need to remove all synergies between traits and skills for that to happen, because that's where those rotations come from - you perform them in a particular order because the synergies mean that gives you better results than some other order.

This argument is both incorrect and makes little sense. Objective reality disproves it.

Engineer Rifle became a lot better due to the Auto Attack doing an explosion which triggers several traits. Is there still synergy between skills and traits? Yes, and the game play is overall a lot easier since it's no longer fatal for your DPS if you mistime something. Which is the case for pretty much everyone else.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Malus.2184

[Stalima.5490]

oh, yeah, sure, after all the nonesense other classes are capable of MECHANIST is the sole element dividing the community, a specialisation that is literally only able to do what it is specced to do is the thing that is dividing everyone and not the many other classes able to do everything simultaniously and still compete with mechanist at its best output.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Stalima.5490

[Asum.4960]

41 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

oh, yeah, sure, after all the nonesense other classes are capable of MECHANIST is the sole element dividing the community, a specialisation that is literally only able to do what it is specced to do is the thing that is dividing everyone and not the many other classes able to do everything simultaniously and still compete with mechanist at its best output.

When one specialisation out of 36 (27 without core) makes up 33% of all played specialisations, then yes, that seems fairly clear cut indicative of an issue. 

A spec exploding that much in popularity (and for very good reasons) is indeed entirely unprecedented in the game's history.

 

And while the nerf already reduced it's playrate slightly, that seems mostly post-nerf psychological, as it's still busted due to it's sheer DPS uptime.

[Stalima.5490]

52 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

When one specialisation out of 36 (27 without core) makes up 33% of all played specialisations, then yes, that seems fairly clear cut indicative of an issue. 

A spec exploding that much in popularity (and for very good reasons) is indeed entirely unprecedented in the game's history.

 

And while the nerf already reduced it's playrate slightly, that seems mostly post-nerf psychological, as it's still busted due to it's sheer DPS uptime.

what good is uptime when a warrior can just press one button and do the damage of the entire mechanist rotation in one button though?

[Malus.2184]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

When one specialisation out of 36 (27 without core) makes up 33% of all played specialisations, then yes, that seems fairly clear cut indicative of an issue. 

That's the instictive reation. The real reason so many people play Mechanist is that playing the spec is easy compared to everyone else, which means that they're too difficult.

The curent Mechanist design falls within the self-learning principles of the Zone of Proximal Control (ZPD) (https://www.wested.org/resources/zone-of-proximal-development/#:~:text=The Zone of Proximal Development is defined as the space,collaboration with more capable peers.). Almost every other spec is default too difficult for for people to learn to improve. If the base that people can get out them is 20% then getting an improvement to just 40% is too difficult for most, yet people demand a 90% performance for something to be considered viable.

I'm talking developmental psychology based on scientific principles and studies. There is no debate in this. The gap is objectively too large between what people expect and what most people can develop. That leads to them becoming frustrated and quitting. Since people want to continue playing the game they'll gravitate toward Mechanist because the spec falls within the ZPD in base perfomance and expected performance.

Instead, of the Mechanist getting further nerfed every other spec needs to have their skill floor decreased as right now even the floor is too difficult for most people to reach. They need to have more abilities that trigger certain traits, like Rifle 1 now gives an explosion.

For Engineer it should be easier for them to get Explosions. The last swing of the Holosmith AA chain should be an explosion. The last AA of the Scrapper Hammer should be an Explosion.

Warrior should just have their AA default trigger Physical if completed in order to activate the trait that most people have anyway, which would free up some Utility Skill space.

Etc. for every other Profesion.

What their traits activates from should be a basic part of either the weapon or the basic Profession.

This is the reason Mechanist is so popular, the skill floor is within reach of most people instead of being stupidly high.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Malus.2184

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

oh, yeah, sure, after all the nonesense other classes are capable of MECHANIST is the sole element dividing the community, a specialisation that is literally only able to do what it is specced to do is the thing that is dividing everyone and not the many other classes able to do everything simultaniously and still compete with mechanist at its best output.

Are we playing the same game? 🤔