Mechanist is dividing the Community

[jcgreece.6870]

1 minute ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Every Machinist in the squad (except the HAMs) are still the top DPS in every content I do. Maybe its different on a golem, but in real-world situations nothing seems to've changed. Other classes just can't keep their damage up under stress, while Machinist still has zero problems doing so.

Exactly what I said earlier... how can you have a dialogue with these arguments? 🤣

[Tails.9372]

9 minutes ago, lorddarkflare.9186 said:

Getting consistently out-DPS by other classes in T4s now.

Again people are talking about 10 man content even though they more often than not omit that part. According to wingman Mech in Fractals is currently at around 14% and even at peak never reached 20.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Malus.2184]

4 minutes ago, jcgreece.6870 said:

Exactly what I said earlier... how can you have a dialogue with these arguments? 🤣

Nah, people think that Golem is the only metric that counts. I even had an argument with TeaPot where he pulledout the Goplenm argument, despite shortly before having argued that a Golem is in no way representative.

[Cyninja.2954]

23 minutes ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

Play other than strikes. You will see.

We actually have data for this. Here the distribution for Gorseval pre nerf:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/gors

FYI: this is heavily favoring other classes because Gorseval is a glorified damage golem. Mech was dominating (aka top tier) not only in amount of logs provided but also in performance on a boss where every class is able to theoretically bring golem performance.

Let's look at a fight with a lot of movement:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/sh

Turns out, mech matched even classes which are heavily favored for this fight like condi mirage/virtuoso (which are actually pretty overpowered for this encounter due to confusion).

So no, this was not a strike only phenomenon.

1 hour ago, jcgreece.6870 said:

There can't be a debate when half the community thinks that because mech was doing good in open world it should be nerfed in every content, without even considering that in open world there are multiple enemies and piercing. How can you even have a dialogue?

How good then that the argument was not ONLY about open world. Mech was dominating and bullying out other classes in all PVE content (with some exceptions being fractals where it merely performed well due to the burst nature of the content in regards to CMs).

11 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Again people are talking about 10 man content even though they more often than not omit that part. According to wingman Mech in Fractals is currently at around 14% and even at peak never reached 20.

14-20% is an issue, even if less than 30+%. The reason it was less an issue in fractals was not due to mech, but rather the content being designed so that mech was not able to dominate that heavily (shorter burst windows, bosses being cced, resets for skills pre fights, etc.).

Edited October 7, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Asum.4960]

25 minutes ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

Play other than strikes. You will see.

I mean I have thousands of hours in Fractals and Raids with Fractal God, Envoy's Herald and so on, so even though I haven't been playing them hardcore lately I'm still more than familiar with all of the encounters, and I don't see how it would be much different there (safe for on some golem like encounter's like MO) - besides, according to Wingman the overrepresentation of Mech is pretty much the same in Raids as in Strikes. 

The Fractal Meta has always been far more entrenched and slower to change, so it's natural that Mech has been growing slightly slower there, reaching "just" ~20% representation until the patch - which still almost evened it out with the overwhelmingly dominant Firebrand in that gamemode.

 

There really isn't a mechanical possibility for many other specs to pull ahead of Mech on any boss with movement and mechanics, as even those exceptions would require exponentially more skilled players playing them with exponentially more effort.

 

So no, I doubt I'd see a much different picture there.

 

19 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

You're the one implying  that I said that. I merely said that where the floor is to where people expect them to be in performance is too large a gap for most people to cross, and then they grow frustrated and quit, where they moist likely gravitate to a spec that has simpler rotation and a small gap between the skill floor and the skill ceiling. And I think that people would be okay with that if the gap was a slope that went up, instead, it's a straight line that goes up.

Exactly. The problem with your point is that there are, and always have been, plenty perfectly viable low-intensity builds already - just not no rotation at all just press any button off cooldown, or have the game auto cast them for you, at 1200 range (while doing peak dps) easy.

Quote

You also avoided answering the question I asked. What is the ZPD?

You are sorely mistaken if you think I've anything to prove to you, nor would me quoting some easily understood concept back to you serve any purpose. I'm here to have a discussion, not to entertain your antics.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Kuma.1503]

After doing some strikes and fractals post patch. It's been pretty easy to out dps the average rifle Mech on my quickness Scrapper and also on my alac mirage. Something I was doing on occasion pre-patch, but it's far easier to accomplish now. 

 

[Malus.2184]

23 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

 

Exactly. The problem with your point is that there are, and always have been, plenty perfectly viable low-intensity builds already - just not no rotation at all just press any button off cooldown, or have the game auto cast them for you, at 1200 range (while doing peak dps) easy.

You are sorely mistaken if you think I've anything to prove to you, nor would me quoting some easily understood concept back to you serve any purpose. I'm here to have a discussion, not to entertain your antics.

I did a search on LI builds, they're all relatively new and they all employs an Elite spec to make it so, often by making sure that an important mechanic is filled by an aspect of the Elite spec.

When your argument can be this easily dismantled by a simple search on Google then your argument is emotional.

As I said in another post. If the difference from the skill floor to the skill ceiling was a slope, instead, of a straight line upwards people would be happier about engaging in learning since it would follow the principles of the ZPD.

You have no idea how important the ZPD is for understanding how people engage with any activity is.

[Cyninja.2954]

4 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

I did a search on LI builds, they're all relatively new and they all employs an Elite spec to make it so, often by making sure that an important mechanic is filled by an aspect of the Elite spec.

LI builds are not new. They've been around for years, the push to make them more easily available is newish but even then, any players semi dedicated to finding one would have had no issue in the last 5 years. Youtube and metabattle were and have been full of them for ages.

4 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

When your argument can be this easily dismantled by a simple search on Google then your argument is emotional.

That is not what your statement showed though. All I personally get from this is you were never interested until now to actually improve your game performance or adapt builds to your abilities.

The resources have been there for a long time. Even on most meta builds, creators would often give advice on how to simplify rotations, especially on aggregated sites like metabattle (which has had open world and LI builds for years).  You not looking for them or not knowing about them does not change this fact.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Asum.4960]

4 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

I did a search on LI builds, they're all relatively new and they all employs an Elite spec to make it so, often by making sure that an important mechanic is filled by an aspect of the Elite spec.

When your argument can be this easily dismantled by a simple search on Google then your argument is emotional.

Right. Your google search just now obviously trumps me literally making such builds, helping players out with such builds and pushing for acceptance of such builds since over half a decade. My mistake.

 

I think we are done here with this level of discourse.

[Malus.2184]

5 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

LI builds are not new. They've been around for years, the push to make them more easily available is newish but even then, any players semi dedicated to finding one would have had no issue in the last 5 years. Youtube and metabattle were and have been full of them for ages.

I have a feeling that your definition of LI is extremely different from the LI builds as they're understood now. If they were similar then I would be able to find them on at least one of the search results I got since some people only have Core and would need the LI functionality.

What I said above goes for you as well.

1 minute ago, Asum.4960 said:

Right. Your google search just now obviously trumps me literally making such builds, helping players out with such builds and pushing for acceptance of such builds since over half a decade. My mistake.

I've seen Core Build rotations which consisted of three different rotations of around 14 steps each. Cutting that down to one rotation of 14 steps would technically make it LI, and for what opportunity cost?

I've no doubt it would be functional for open-world game play. How would it perform in Fractals or in Dungeons? That's what I wonder.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Malus.2184

[Asum.4960]

Just now, Malus.2184 said:

I have a feeling that your definition of LI is extremely different from the LI builds as they're understood now. If they were similar then I would be able to find them on at least one of the search results I got since some people only have Core and would need the LI functionality.

Now you are moving the goalpost - Mechanist doesn't fulfil this new core requirement for LI builds just as little as Auto Attack Herald did 5 years ago.

[Cyninja.2954]

7 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

I have a feeling that your definition of LI is extremely different from the LI builds as they're understood now. If they were similar then I would be able to find them on at least one of the search results I got since some people only have Core and would need the LI functionality.

The common definition, or at least the one I go by, is Low Intensity builds. This applies to in general:

- actions per minute

- required combos or synergistic execution for maximum output

- tracking of many cooldowns

all of which should be kept rather easy for a build to be considered LI. Most often with as little performance loss as possible.

Sometimes combined with some simplification in gearing because not everyone can be expected to run full ascended with ideal stats and max infusions. Simply because the effort to get this equipment can be dozens of hours long, but even then some LI builds will obviously benefit of maximized gearing.

What certainly does not fall under this term is the effort of around 1-2 hours to get hero points to finish an elite specialization. This has nothing to do with LI builds or not, but rather with minimal preparation in order to be able to play a build. If someone makes an LI build for class/elite spec XYZ, it should be expected that player ABC has that class/elite spec at hand...

Edited October 7, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Malus.2184]

1 minute ago, Asum.4960 said:

Now you are moving the goalpost - Mechanist doesn't fulfil this new core requirement for LI builds just as little as Auto Attack Herald did 5 years ago.

I never did, you did by expressing that I did, a Mech rotation is still a rotation and while auto-attack does perform well; the content and execution of your posts shows that you've no understanding of what the cause of said reality is, you just complain without understanding the reason.

Rifle AA does two shots and an explosion. Depending on your build the Explosion triggers up to six Traits. Other Engineeer builds have to use a Grenade Kit to trigger the Explosion effects. Rifle gets it for just existing. Hence Rifle is the most popular for any DPS.

Other Specs needs to have something similar done to them. This is my anecdotal experience so take it with a grain of salt. Rarely do I see middling DPS performance, it's either bad or near the Golem bench. If it it was easier I would expect to see a distribition of DPS performance closer to a Bell curve.

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

The common definition, or at least the one I go by, is Low Intensity builds. This applies to in general:

- actions per minute

- required combos or synergistic execution for maximum output

- tracking of many cooldowns

all of which should be kept rather easy for a build to be considered LI. Most often with as little performance loss as possible.

 

Sometimes combined with some simplification in gearing because not everyone can be expected to run full ascended with ideal stats and max infusions.

 

What certainly does not fall under this term is the effort of around 1-2 hours to get hero points to finish an elite specialization.

It still results in a performance, and while those thing are elements in an LI build one of the important aspects of the LI builds is that it produces a high performance for a relatively low input.

[Sobx.1758]

On 10/6/2022 at 4:39 AM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

They don't need to make it non-viable.  Pmech is LI.  It doesn't really matter what you do, that isn't going to change.  And that's fine.  Let it be viable.  Just place it on the low end of the spectrum like we see with other perfectly viable builds like DH, reaper, etc.  It'll still perform far better than its benchmark indicates in actual gameplay and that will always be more true for the less skilled players the build is intended to help.

What they should be aiming for here is a build that is popular for the LI crowd but not a good choice for top tier performance.  Pretty simple, no?

Yup, well said. That's exactly what it should be and I don't think there's a problem with LI builds existing. The problem is high performing almost self-playing builds.

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

@Cyninja.2954@Asum.4960

I am talking about now but you were talking about pre patch. Not sure if you wanted to pull report from pre patch and nerf more?

If that's the case, go ahead and delete the whole mech.

[Asum.4960]

10 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

I never did, you did by expressing that I did, a Mech rotation is still a rotation and while auto-attack does perform well; the content and execution of your posts shows that you've no understanding of what the cause of said reality is, you just complain without understanding the reason.

Rifle AA does two shots and an explosion. Depending on your build the Explosion triggers up to six Traits. Other Engineeer builds have to use a Grenade Kit to trigger the Explosion effects. Rifle gets it for just existing. Hence Rifle is the most popular for any DPS.

Other Specs needs to have something similar done to them.

If Rifle Power Mechanist qualifies as rotation to you, then we simply have a very different understanding of the word. 

Mech operates on a extremely simple priority list of buttons to press off-cooldown (or not, you'll still do fine - and half the buttons the game can already automate for you anyway).

 

I'm well aware how Mechanist works - but in my opinion reducing every spec in the game down to entirely passive damage modifiers and passively off auto attack triggering Traits (and a passive automated Pet) might as well be the death of GW2 greatest strength - it's combat system. 

Why even have a Trait system, weapon or even utility skills at that point.

 

There is a time and place for LI builds, but using Mechanist as baseline for how they should perform or let alone as guide post on how to change existing- and design future other specs imo shows an incredibly disregard to the game and it's systems.

 

[Mell.4873]

Good discussions so far. 

I think my main takeaway is no one has a problem with Mech doing the most over all damage the problem comes in the face that the rotation is so simple there is no point in playing anything else. 

If the rotation was more complex to achieve the same numbers then there would be an insensitive to pick another class due to its benifit. 

It does ultimately come down to end-game content so if its not being played as much there is will trickle down to other game modes.

[Mell.4873]

23 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

If Rifle Power Mechanist qualifies as rotation to you, then we simply have a very different understanding of the word. 

Mech operates on a extremely simple priority list of buttons to press off-cooldown (or not, you'll still do fine - and half the buttons the game can already automate for you anyway).

 

I'm well aware how Mechanist works - but in my opinion reducing every spec in the game down to entirely passive damage modifiers and passively off auto attack triggering Traits (and a passive automated Pet) might as well be the death of GW2 greatest strength - it's combat system. 

Why even have a Trait system, weapon or even utility skills at that point.

 

There is a time and place for LI builds, but using Mechanist as baseline for how they should perform or let alone as guide post on how to change existing- and design future other specs imo shows an incredibly disregard to the game and it's systems.

 

I guess the original design of the more auto attack traits in the Engineer Core Traitline was for Kits. 

Most of the kits are really hard to aim at moving targets so having a trait to offer them more consistency when hitting a target was the goal.

Rifle and Mechanist changed all this since they have very good and easy to use attacks. 

[Infusion.7149]

Setting autoattack , pressing 2 and autocasting mech commands is not a rotation.

I also can't take the comments about "ZPD" or whatever seriously since if you need to resort to psychology or nonnumerical means to evaluate the build then it means you are not thinking about it in a proper manner.

Scourge isn't comparable at all (especially in fractals where power burst will phase things), since now is 35K DPS full rotation and it never had a 25K+ autoattack (reaper shroud  or harbinger shroud maybe but not scourge). Scourge is essentially a better shortbow camping condi soulbeast.

[Stalima.5490]

11 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

Suggestion: take your warrior (or make one), get your bladesworn to the testgolem until you're familiar with the rotation to the spot where you constantly hit, let's say 80% of the benchmark, then join some strikes or raids, preferably some with non-stationary bosses, and then come back here and tell us if you still believe in what you wrote.

well how does the warriors 1200 range rifle have less uptime than the mechanists? I mean if anything, the warrior does more damage at range since it doesn't lose damage from distance.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

4 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Every Machinist in the squad (except the HAMs) are still the top DPS in every content I do. Maybe its different on a golem, but in real-world situations nothing seems to've changed. Other classes just can't keep their damage up under stress, while Machinist still has zero problems doing so.

 

The more stressful the content, the higher the gap seems to be.

 

That doesnt mean anything at all.

 

If you're doing T1 fractals with new player then sure Mechanist might be at the top DPS. If you're doing content with only mechanist then duh, mechanist is the top DPS. But if you're doing idk raid or T4 fractals with competent player not playing Mechanist, then I highly doubt Mechanist is going to be top DPS, especially when things like Virtuoso, Bladesworn or Untamed can pull out those big numbers.

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

well how does the warriors 1200 range rifle have less uptime than the mechanists? I mean if anything, the warrior does more damage at range since it doesn't lose damage from distance.

Go autoattack on a rifle warrior and get back to us. If you're on power bladesworn you need to melee to have a high damage dragon trigger (a maximum Dragon Slash - Force has 20+ power coefficient while a "ranged" Dragon Slash - Reach has a maximum of ~10 coefficient and 900 range) ; gunflame rifle berserker is meme level.

52 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

That doesnt mean anything at all.

 

If you're doing T1 fractals with new player then sure Mechanist might be at the top DPS. If you're doing content with only mechanist then duh, mechanist is the top DPS. But if you're doing idk raid or T4 fractals with competent player not playing Mechanist, then I highly doubt Mechanist is going to be top DPS, especially when things like Virtuoso, Bladesworn or Untamed can pull out those big numbers.

Are you basing this off hypotheticals? Because it doesn't seem rooted in reality. The only way you're getting higher DPS on bladesworn is if the target doesn't move much (i.e. the boss is being tanked) and if the bladesworn is highly experienced with the fight. If you get randomly CC-ed , need to do a mechanic (i.e. bomb or split), or something of that nature it isn't even close. Virtuoso is not fully ranged either unless you are playing the condi one with jagged mind (namely the fan attack on daggers needs to be closer range and the power one requires <600 range else it loses 10% DPS), I highlighted the differences to power virtuoso above already and you aren't going to be getting 20K+ autos at range. The top it all off you mention untamed which is why severely doubt your judgement is based off actual groups.

I joked with one of the streamers one time that I had no clue how to rifle mech coming from holo , first time playing it (ever) on VG I was second in DPS and they were first on Bladesworn.
The nerf was justified and not heavy handed whatsoever. Power rifle mechanist is still more than viable.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[AliamRationem.5172]

57 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

That doesnt mean anything at all.

 

If you're doing T1 fractals with new player then sure Mechanist might be at the top DPS. If you're doing content with only mechanist then duh, mechanist is the top DPS. But if you're doing idk raid or T4 fractals with competent player not playing Mechanist, then I highly doubt Mechanist is going to be top DPS, especially when things like Virtuoso, Bladesworn or Untamed can pull out those big numbers.

You don't actually do a lot of T4 fractals, do you?  Just a guess...

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

2 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

That doesnt mean anything at all.

 

If you're doing T1 fractals with new player then sure Mechanist might be at the top DPS. If you're doing content with only mechanist then duh, mechanist is the top DPS. But if you're doing idk raid or T4 fractals with competent player not playing Mechanist, then I highly doubt Mechanist is going to be top DPS, especially when things like Virtuoso, Bladesworn or Untamed can pull out those big numbers.

I do all 5man and 10man content every day (I pretty much only do instanced content since the last year), and we have this lovely tool called ArcDPS that lets us monitor the entire party/squad's output.

 

My Dungoneer is also an Engineer (I love puns), and I have another one for Fractals, both with all possible builds. I think I understand what the class is capable of.

 

I think the saddest thing is I have one build that is full Celestial with rifle that still does 15k sustained in real fights, with 10x the survivability of the player next to me only doing 5k more. I'd never do that on another class (most of them have to run some glassy Viper or Berserker variant), but Machinist can pull it off without much trouble and still be top DPS like half the time in T4s.

 

The other classes you listed have extreme circumstances required to reach their max DPS. Virtuoso is dependant on line of sight, Bladesworn on timing and positioning, and Untamed on CC. All of these can become impossible depending on the fight, (which players who play them know all about).

 

Its important to understand that damage on golems isn't an actual fight. If it was, Catalyst would've remained king. (well, Elementalist in general throughout the years). Real fights have mechanics that constantly destroy your DPS, especially with the changes to Aegis and Stability in the last few years that don't let you skip nearly as many mechanics as before. Classes which can maintain their DPS no matter how much stress they're under will perform better on an ongoing basis than classes which have a really high top DPS that falls apart under stress, the biggest offender here probably being Bladesworn, who can lose all their damage from one mistake (and Untamed just not working at all on bosses without breakbars, like in alot of raids).

 

Both Machinist and Scrapper have really high uptime LI builds due to range and superspeed, respectively, and the Mech will always push Machinist to the peak performance. Its like Ranger if longbow didn't lose damage up close and the pet didn't suck.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Alcatraznc.3869]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Are you basing this off hypotheticals? Because it doesn't seem rooted in reality. The only way you're getting higher DPS on bladesworn is if the target doesn't move much (i.e. the boss is being tanked) and if the bladesworn is highly experienced with the fight.

And this is why I said COMPETENT PLAYER. Everyone missed it but that's fine, I'm used to people only reading what they want to read.

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

 Virtuoso is not fully ranged either unless you are playing the condi one with jagged mind (namely the fan attack on daggers needs to be closer range and the power one requires <600 range else it loses 10% DPS), I highlighted the differences to power virtuoso above already and you aren't going to be getting 20K+ autos at range.

Then Mechanist is not really different because if you want to use the High Caliber trait, you have to play at 450 or less range.

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The top it all off you mention untamed which is why severely doubt your judgement is based off actual groups.

I've seen few Untamed during my daily T4 fractal do insane damage which makes me wonder 2 things:

1- Does that player really knows how to play the game, or more specifically its class and the mechanic ? (I'm actually sure that's the case)

2-  Does the majority of the player actually suck ?  (I'm sure that's also a reason)

 

30 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I do all 5man and 10man content every day (I pretty much only do instanced content since the last year), and we have this lovely tool called ArcDPS that lets us monitor the entire party/squad's output.

 

My Dungoneer is also an Engineer (I love puns), and I have another one for Fractals, both with all possible builds. I think I understand what the class is capable of.

 

Thanks you that's already a lot more accurate