Give us a way to acquire legendary weapon skin without crafting legendary weapon

[SuavePuppy.2809]

The Legendary Armory has spoiled people. Legendaries went from a single piece of gear to one that can be used across any and all characters that can wield them, increasing the value by a significant amount, and the somehow the response is "I want the other legendary cosmetics to be cheaper now". 

There are a number of expensive exotic items on the TP that have unique skins (Foefire's Essence, Infinite Light, etc.). Why would people buy these when a fully effective generic exotic weapon would cost a couple of gold? In a game with ascended and legendary gear, I find it more likely to believe that people are buying/crafting these items for the skins than the stats. Cosmetics are a significant part of the game, and sometimes you have to shell out for them.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

3 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

In fact for most veterans which do have multiple legendaries of the same type like myself... I myself crafted the new legendaries for the skin only (I have all 16

 

Only ANet will have actually data on this, but I think this reflects a problem with this debate.  I would guess (but without data, it's a guess) that you are reflective of a much higher proportion of the forum that you are of the general veteran community.

 

For a large proportion of vets who already own a gen 1/gen 2 legendary, the idea of spending more than the full cost of one of those just to get the skin of a gen 3 will not be worthwhile, and therefore they simply won't do it.

 

This isn't, as some have suggested, about being "spoiled".  It's just about cost/benefit analysis, and also the psychological impact of spending more and getting less than you did previously (and that others who didn't already invest will now).

 

Again, without stats we can only speculate.  But if the number of people who are put off from engaging with new long term rewards is high, then this is something ANet should consider.  From (limited) observation, I think it's probably quite a number of people.

 

[yoni.7015]

7 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

For a large proportion of vets who already own a gen 1/gen 2 legendary, the idea of spending more than the full cost of one of those just to get the skin of a gen 3 will not be worthwhile, and therefore they simply won't do it.

How many are you talking about? 70%, 80%?
From where do you get your data that says that it won’t be worthwhile for a large portion of vets? 
I know quite a lot of veteran players, myself included, that crafted gen3 legendaries although we already have gen1 or gen2 of the weapon kind. For veteran players it is quite easy and not that expensive to craft legendaries because you already have a lot of the materials and get them constantly by playing the game. It’s especially easy to craft gen3 weapons when you play a lot of EoD metas. 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by yoni.7015

[stormemperor.3745]

23 hours ago, chripsy.1027 said:

I already have a legendary staff, but I want the new staff skin.... I am not spending all of that gold to make a new legendary staff I don't need just for a skin....

 

Please can the devs make it so that once you craft a legendary weapon, a series of achievements will open up so you can acquire all the legendary skins for that weapon without having to craft another weapon?

 

Completing the achievements for each skin could cost maybe 1/3 of the cost it would be to actually craft the weapon.

Boneskinner staff best

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

12 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

How many are you talking about? 70%, 80%?
From where do you get your data that says that it won’t be worthwhile for a large portion of vets? 
I know quite a lot of veteran players, myself included, that crafted gen3 legendaries although we already have gen1 or gen2 of the weapon kind. For veteran players it is quite easy and not that expensive to craft legendaries because you already have a lot of the materials and get them constantly by playing the game. It’s especially easy to craft gen3 weapons when you play a lot of EoD metas. 

Anecdotal observation.  Though in one of MightyTeapot's latest streams I think they also mentioned this, and I think 3 of four people hadn't touched the Gen 3s, with one specifically calling this out as a reason to not engage with them.

 

I did of course mention lack of data in two of the three paragraphs you didn't quote though.  I think I was pretty explicit in saying "If the data shows ANet that this is the case, then this is something they should consider", rather than declaring that it was the case.

Edited October 15, 2022 by CrashTestAuto.9108

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

For a large proportion of vets who already own a gen 1/gen 2 legendary, the idea of spending more than the full cost of one of those just to get the skin of a gen 3 will not be worthwhile, and therefore they simply won't do it.

And you're completely missing the fact that those players having 2 gens of each weapon won't have much to spend for anymore in the first place. So if that's your angle here then it seems to be a rather weak one imo.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Ashen.2907]

I am torn on this one.

On one hand I too would be disinclined to pay full legendary price for just a skin when I already have a legendary of that weapon type unlocked.

On the other hand legendary weapons are an indication of in game wealth not possessed by most players. Giving the wealthiest players in the game a discount for accumulating further trappings of wealth seems a bit odd to me.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[zeyeti.8347]

mb wrong post . Ashen.2907

Edited October 15, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Ashen.2907]

2 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Personal advice to the Op , try join a training guild on raids , most class now have so much dps you dont struggle anymore on the wing 1 2 3 4 , because you simply bypass mechanics , it will indeed take you a long time , but you will feel so proud once you achieve this goal , having your stuff trown at you so easily is not fun , and if you have no time to deal with raids , well sorry for you , have no advice for that ...

Apparently I missed the raid element of the OP's request about legendary weapon skins.

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

 

Only ANet will have actually data on this, but I think this reflects a problem with this debate.  I would guess (but without data, it's a guess) that you are reflective of a much higher proportion of the forum that you are of the general veteran community.

 

For a large proportion of vets who already own a gen 1/gen 2 legendary, the idea of spending more than the full cost of one of those just to get the skin of a gen 3 will not be worthwhile, and therefore they simply won't do it.

 

This isn't, as some have suggested, about being "spoiled".  It's just about cost/benefit analysis, and also the psychological impact of spending more and getting less than you did previously (and that others who didn't already invest will now).

 

Again, without stats we can only speculate.  But if the number of people who are put off from engaging with new long term rewards is high, then this is something ANet should consider.  From (limited) observation, I think it's probably quite a number of people.

 

Oh absolutely, I am fully aware that I am probably part of a 0.01% crowd and what I or players in my situation consider a worthwhile "long-term" goal will likely not apply to most players.

Here is the issue though:

for everyone else up to this point, there is a TON of content/goals to go for. There is no need to drop the long-term rewards down to mid-term rewards (let's call them that just to differentiate, this obviously can be highly subjective), there is enough of those to go around.

Before you get to worry about crafting multiple of the same legendary, you can:

- go for every legendary weapon

- full legendary armor

- full runes/sigils

- tons of quality of life upgrades

- cheaper unique skins by the truckload

- etc. etc. etc.

It's not only about making rewards more available. It's a question of which rewards are available at what point in time. A player who has made 1 legendary item has absolutely 0 need to get a rebate on further skins in order to encourage them to go for rewards. Those with all legendary items even less.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

16 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I am torn on this one.

On one hand I too would be disinclined to pay full legendary price for just a skin when I already have a levendary of that weapon type unlocked.

On the other hand legendary weapons are an indication of in game wealth not possessed by most players. Giving the wealthiest players in the game a discount for accumulating further trappings of wealth seems a bit odd to me.

I think it could be fairly limited in impact, if carefully implemented.  An imperfect version that I think would be close to fair would be that if you craft a legendary (or have that legendary already unlocked in your wardrobe) then you get a token.  Let's call it an "Echo of legendary dagger" (or whatever weapon it is).  You can then use that token in place of the Gift of Fortune/Mystic Tribute/Draconic Tribute to craft an account bound version of the same weapon type.

 

Obviously the difference in cost of those three things makes this not quite right, but it's the sort of design I think could work with tweaks (the Gen 3 cost works probably fairest, as the bulk of the cost is in the Gift of Jade Mastery at the moment).  This way you don't completely negate the cost, but you give enough incentive to make players feel better about the reduced utility.

[Silent.6137]

5 hours ago, Giovanelli.6071 said:

Oh, has the TP price gone down on coins lately? (or at least since I last looked lmao) Sweet, I might take a glance at them later once I've slept. Genuinely forgot you could buy them for a minute, since I had a stock already for Nevermore. I might be thinking of the clovers then... 🤔

For clovers, unless you are patient enough to farm chests/tracks/weekly vendors, the easiest is to craft them at Mystic Forge. They can cost quite a bit if you're unlucky though.

1 hour ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

This isn't, as some have suggested, about being "spoiled".  It's just about cost/benefit analysis, and also the psychological impact of spending more and getting less than you did previously (and that others who didn't already invest will now).

 

Again, without stats we can only speculate.  But if the number of people who are put off from engaging with new long term rewards is high, then this is something ANet should consider.  From (limited) observation, I think it's probably quite a number of people.

 

 

57 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Anecdotal observation.  Though in one of MightyTeapot's latest streams I think they also mentioned this, and I think 3 of four people hadn't touched the Gen 3s, with one specifically calling this out as a reason to not engage with them.

As I mentioned in my previous posts, trying to get something easier should not negate the current methods. It is extra skins OP wants but with significantly less cost. In my example with Frostfang & Aurene's Rending, with 1/3 added cost to Frostfang to also get Aurene's Rending skin, you'll be looking at 1258g (943+315) which is still less than 1402g. So realistically, you're looking at 2 skins at a cost that's still quite a bit lower than the cost for 1 skin. This will completely destroy Gen 2's and Gen 3's. Equalize them and then it's something worth considering.

Long-termed items are goals. They involved high costs and commitments regardless of whether they are new or older. Most players will not rush into them.

As for MT's stream, even if they're streamers and more involved than the average players, I truly doubt they're any more commited or knowledgeable than any one of us. They are the opinions of 4 players. Nothing more. Maybe one or more of them may even be here debating this issue.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Oh absolutely, I am fully aware that I am probably part of a 0.01% crowd and what I or players in my situation consider a worthwhile "long-term" goal will likely not apply to most players.

Here is the issue though:

for everyone else up to this point, there is a TON of content/goals to go for. There is no need to drop the long-term rewards down to mid-term rewards (let's call them that just to differentiate, this obviously can be highly subjective), there is enough of those to go around.

Before you get to worry about crafting multiple of the same legendary, you can:

- go for every legendary weapon

- full legendary armor

- full runes/sigils

- tons of quality of life upgrades

- cheaper unique skins by the truckload

- etc. etc. etc.

It's not only about making rewards more available. It's a question of which rewards are available at what point in time. A player who has made 1 legendary item has absolutely 0 need to get a rebate on further skins in order to encourage them to go for rewards. Those with all legendary items even less.

Yeah, this is where I'm torn, because I totally agree with this statement.  However, I think there is a bit of a grey area with the new Legendary set especially because (1) the effects are such a big step up from Gen 1 and (2) the EoD content revolves around them so heavily.  I think there's a probably fairly large proportion of player who are not in that 1% and wouldn't justify the expenditure on a skin, but also dedicated enough players that ANet would really want them to engage with the latest rewards and expansion content.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

4 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

For clovers, unless you are patient enough to farm chests/tracks/weekly vendors, the easiest is to craft them at Mystic Forge. They can cost quite a bit if you're unlucky though.

 

As I mentioned in my previous posts, trying to get something easier should not negate the current methods. It is extra skins OP wants but with significantly less cost. In my example with Frostfang & Aurene's Rending, with 1/3 added cost to Frostfang to also get Aurene's Rending skin, you'll be looking at 1258g (943+315) which is still less than 1402g. So realistically, you're looking at 2 skins at a cost that's still quite a bit lower than the cost for 1 skin. This will completely destroy Gen 2's and Gen 3's. Equalize them and then it's something worth considering.

Long-termed items are goals. They involved high costs and commitments regardless of whether they are new or older. Most players will not rush into them.

 

 

Totally agree.  I've tried to sketch what I think is the right direction (not a full solution) in an earlier post.  But there definitely shouldn't be an encouragement for players to game the system by e.g. buying one generation first in order to then upgrade to another one.

 

4 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

As for MT's stream, even if they're streamers and more involved than the average players, I truly doubt they're any more commited or knowledgeable than any one of us. They are the opinions of 4 players. Nothing more. Maybe one or more of them may even be here debating this issue.

Again, agreed.  I was just asked for my data source and as we're all stuck with anecdotes this happened to be one I saw recently and is outside my own personal bubble of people I play with.

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Yeah, this is where I'm torn, because I totally agree with this statement.  However, I think there is a bit of a grey area with the new Legendary set especially because (1) the effects are such a big step up from Gen 1 and (2) the EoD content revolves around them so heavily.  I think there's a probably fairly large proportion of player who are not in that 1% and wouldn't justify the expenditure on a skin, but also dedicated enough players that ANet would really want them to engage with the latest rewards and expansion content.

So now it's not even about weapon caps and "just skins", but simply making stuff cheaper for the sake of being cheaper. Oof.

Even if someone isn't interested in crafting gen 3, their components are a part of the increased gold income for those players, so EoD replayability still works perfectly fine even for players not interested in craftin gen 3.

[Khisanth.2948]

5 hours ago, SuavePuppy.2809 said:

The Legendary Armory has spoiled people. Legendaries went from a single piece of gear to one that can be used across any and all characters that can wield them, increasing the value by a significant amount, and the somehow the response is "I want the other legendary cosmetics to be cheaper now". 

There are a number of expensive exotic items on the TP that have unique skins (Foefire's Essence, Infinite Light, etc.). Why would people buy these when a fully effective generic exotic weapon would cost a couple of gold? In a game with ascended and legendary gear, I find it more likely to believe that people are buying/crafting these items for the skins than the stats. Cosmetics are a significant part of the game, and sometimes you have to shell out for them.

Not really much of a change. There has always been "I did A therefore I should get the entire rest of the alphabet" types.

[Labjax.2465]

11 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

So you feel the game should cater to the least common denominator? You make it easier but someone comes along later and complains that it's still too hard. So you just keep making it easier and easier? So where does it end? A line has to be drawn somewhere.

Let's take a look at the cost involved in crafting a Gen 1 axe, Frostfang(943g) vs Gen 3 Aurene's Rending(1402g). Do you seriously believe it's okay to just craft a Frostfang and expect to get an Aurene's Rending skin with minimal extra cost or efforts? There should be an equivalency or you'll just make more expensive Gen 2 or Gen 3 all obsolete. Do all Gen 2 or Gen 3 automatically get Gen 1's skin since they're so much more expensive?

It is not baseless speculations. Even if it's just a small number, they do matter. There's also the aspect of opportunity cost. You crafted Gen 1 because of the cost and want Gen 2 or Gen 3 skins, you pay the price differential. And more since you're getting 2 skins instead of just a Gen 2 or Gen 3.

 

This entire post is just making up positions that I didn't take and then trying to knock them down lol.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

 

[branwen.1049]

8 hours ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

There are way too many people who just complains instead of looking for solutions which also tends to give onlookers the wrong impression.

Never said I was complaining! My words are merely dramatic because that's just how I type. (It will be torment on my psyche though -- I want at least 3 of the Aurene weapons, which does require a bit of legwork, but I went through the Nevermore gauntlet as my very first crafted legendary, so I feel like once I get started with Aurene's I'll be like "oh what the hell, this is easier than I thought.")

[Donari.5237]

3 minutes ago, Giovanelli.6071 said:

Never said I was complaining! My words are merely dramatic because that's just how I type. (It will be torment on my psyche though -- I want at least 3 of the Aurene weapons, which does require a bit of legwork, but I went through the Nevermore gauntlet as my very first crafted legendary, so I feel like once I get started with Aurene's I'll be like "oh what the hell, this is easier than I thought.")

It really will be.  I began with HOPE.  Did Chuka and Champawat up until I'd made the pre, but the mats cost to continue for a skin I don't like stopped me there.  I began a couple of others, mats grind stalled me.  When they announced the Armory, I made Pharus simply because it is beautiful and subtle, and *that* was a nightmare of mats.  So I was semi-dreading the Aurene weapon even with the precursor provided, and put it off while working on a lot of map exploration and achieves in Cantha.  When I finally took a look at it I realized I had something like 90% of everything I needed already gathered for the staff, and made it pretty swiftly.  A bit later I thought maybe I could do a second one, and selected the GS.  Which also has been a breeze compared to Gen 2 and 2.5.  I will have to do some WvW and fractals, keep getting my weekly (feline acronym), and open a ton of EoD chests to build up my supplies to finish making it, but it's quite doable.  You'll be astounded how easy it is to make from scratch so long as you've been playing a lot of EoD and saving your dropped mats.

Which does go to the point under discussion above:  If there were to be some discount on making a second legendary of the same type of weapon, players would naturally make the easiest one first (so far, that's Aurene weapons).  Implementing such a change might require exceptions for the Gen 2 ones that require journeys.  ANet would have to very carefully consider how to balance the process.

[branwen.1049]

5 minutes ago, Donari.5237 said:

It really will be.  I began with HOPE.  Did Chuka and Champawat up until I'd made the pre, but the mats cost to continue for a skin I don't like stopped me there.  I began a couple of others, mats grind stalled me.  When they announced the Armory, I made Pharus simply because it is beautiful and subtle, and *that* was a nightmare of mats.  So I was semi-dreading the Aurene weapon even with the precursor provided, and put it off while working on a lot of map exploration and achieves in Cantha.  When I finally took a look at it I realized I had something like 90% of everything I needed already gathered for the staff, and made it pretty swiftly.  A bit later I thought maybe I could do a second one, and selected the GS.  Which also has been a breeze compared to Gen 2 and 2.5.  I will have to do some WvW and fractals, keep getting my weekly (feline acronym), and open a ton of EoD chests to build up my supplies to finish making it, but it's quite doable.  You'll be astounded how easy it is to make from scratch so long as you've been playing a lot of EoD and saving your dropped mats.

That is definitely a relief to hear -- I have a good stock of Cantha mats already (iirc, can't really check atm) so once I get around to doing those, I will definitely have more than enough lmao

[Silent.6137]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

This entire post is just making up positions that I didn't take and then trying to knock them down lol.

Quote

Sorry, but if someone doesn't want others to have things marginally easier because they had them hard, I just don't care and don't think any game studio should be catering to people who think that way. Video games wouldn't even exist if most people thought that way. They would say video games are too easy a form of entertainment or some such thing. It's complete nonsense philosophy.

That said, I'm doubtful that's a consistent outlook on it from the tiny number of people who are doing that anyway. It sounds a lot like drawing on baseless speculation to me.

Quotes from you that I tried to address. If what is said is not the positions that you take, then what is it?

[Khisanth.2948]

19 minutes ago, Giovanelli.6071 said:

Never said I was complaining! My words are merely dramatic because that's just how I type. (It will be torment on my psyche though -- I want at least 3 of the Aurene weapons, which does require a bit of legwork, but I went through the Nevermore gauntlet as my very first crafted legendary, so I feel like once I get started with Aurene's I'll be like "oh what the hell, this is easier than I thought.")

Wasn't referring you but the people who making a massive deal about the Research Notes and Mystic Coins before that. The notes had their issues especially ANet's hatred for bread.

21 minutes ago, Donari.5237 said:

players would naturally make the easiest one first (so far, that's Aurene weapons). 

How are those easiest? 🤔

Certainly not when it comes to price.

[Silent.6137]

32 minutes ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

How are those easiest? 🤔

Certainly not when it comes to price.

Not price-wise but if you have the gold to buy the mats, it is the easiest. The only thing that you are required to obtain on your own are the Gift of Cantha and Blessing of the Jade Empress. Also, only need 1/2 the amount of Mystic Clovers compared to other Gens, which again can be crafted from purchased mats.

[Labjax.2465]

15 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

So you feel the game should cater to the least common denominator? You make it easier but someone comes along later and complains that it's still too hard. So you just keep making it easier and easier? So where does it end? A line has to be drawn somewhere.

Let's take a look at the cost involved in crafting a Gen 1 axe, Frostfang(943g) vs Gen 3 Aurene's Rending(1402g). Do you seriously believe it's okay to just craft a Frostfang and expect to get an Aurene's Rending skin with minimal extra cost or efforts? There should be an equivalency or you'll just make more expensive Gen 2 or Gen 3 all obsolete. Do all Gen 2 or Gen 3 automatically get Gen 1's skin since they're so much more expensive?

It is not baseless speculations. Even if it's just a small number, they do matter. There's also the aspect of opportunity cost. You crafted Gen 1 because of the cost and want Gen 2 or Gen 3 skins, you pay the price differential. And more since you're getting 2 skins instead of just a Gen 2 or Gen 3.

 

 

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

Quotes from you that I tried to address. If what is said is not the positions that you take, then what is it?

1) You put a slippery slope position on me that I think every single time a player wants something to be easier, a game studio should do it. Not true. My position was and still is that I don't think they should be catering to someone who doesn't want a thing to be easier purely because they had it harder. That does not mean I automatically think every single thing should be made easier in response to every complaint about it, which would be an absurd position to have. I guess I can see how you might have jumped to that conclusion based on the comparison to human invention, but that's all I can suppose in good faith.

2) You talked about legendary costs and asked me a leading question: "Do you seriously believe it's okay to just craft a Frostfang and expect to get an Aurene's Rending skin with minimal extra cost or efforts?" I definitely never used the word minimal and I doubt OP did either. What I recall using is language like "making things marginally easier" in the context of same weapon type additional skin, about one of the biggest time/effort investment things in the game.

3) It sounds like baseless speculation because you haven't cited actual people who belong to that group and feel that way about it. Insisting that matters when you haven't offered evidence they even exist is strange.

4) I'll grant you that the concern about difference in gen cost is valid, but that's not really in contradiction with, or directly related to, what I was saying, so.