Research Notes are antagonistic to players

[SiEO.8430]

I mean, this system is mainly for the end game crafting from what I understand, so to say it's cumbersome for the new players...... well yea, it will be. 

 

This system helped me and a lot of other players clear out hundreds of redundant ascended armour and weapons. Now at least they have some value when they drop other than just throwing it away.

 

And they removed the cheapest ways to obtain it because it was abusable. Buying bread from karma merchant in qeensdale for 4 karma each I think? Some of us got up to 200k research notes within first few days, making the entire system pointless as a currency. So I'm happy they trimmed it back on those cheap items.

[Gibson.4036]

5 hours ago, SiEO.8430 said:

I mean, this system is mainly for the end game crafting from what I understand, so to say it's cumbersome for the new players...... well yea, it will be. 

 

This system helped me and a lot of other players clear out hundreds of redundant ascended armour and weapons. Now at least they have some value when they drop other than just throwing it away.

 

And they removed the cheapest ways to obtain it because it was abusable. Buying bread from karma merchant in qeensdale for 4 karma each I think? Some of us got up to 200k research notes within first few days, making the entire system pointless as a currency. So I'm happy they trimmed it back on those cheap items.

I’ve got a bunch of ascended stuff this system isn’t touching because I happened to have gotten it the wrong way, and it’s not researchable.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Einsof.1457]

It's not that bad. 

[Astralporing.1957]

6 hours ago, SiEO.8430 said:

I mean, this system is mainly for the end game crafting from what I understand, so to say it's cumbersome for the new players...... well yea, it will be. 

Well, i definitely am not a new player, and yet i also see it as way too cumbersome and unnecessarily convoluted. I mean, provisioner token system was better, and it was already quite badly designed.

6 hours ago, SiEO.8430 said:

This system helped me and a lot of other players clear out hundreds of redundant ascended armour and weapons. Now at least they have some value when they drop other than just throwing it away.

Funny how most of ascended gear i have is not researchable directly. It requires stat changing first, which makes me lose value on researching them.

6 hours ago, SiEO.8430 said:

And they removed the cheapest ways to obtain it because it was abusable. Buying bread from karma merchant in qeensdale for 4 karma each I think? Some of us got up to 200k research notes within first few days, making the entire system pointless as a currency. So I'm happy they trimmed it back on those cheap items.

Yes, direct vendor purchases being researchable was bad. Still, notice that they simply made the bread unresearchable, instead of removing it from vendor. This time they've just nuked the primary supply of festival food, affecting also the majority of players that are not intrested in research notes at all. they've also indirectly nerfed labyrinth farm, because the value of ToT bags plummeted hard as a result.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Doggie.3184]

I spent most of Thursday making 10k of them >.< You have to craft soooo many things it makes me wish I could buy higher stacks of things from TP than 250 at a time.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Doggie.3184

[Gehenna.3625]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I’ve got a bunch of ascended stuff this system isn’t touching because I happened to have gotten it the wrong way, and it’s not researchable.

The same rules apply for ascended gear as for other rarities of gear afaik: it needs to be a crafted item.

26 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Funny how most of ascended gear i have is not researchable directly. It requires stat changing first, which makes me lose value on researching them.

Did you craft those ascended items originally or did you get them as loot/rewards? I suspect that the game counts it as crafted once you have stat changed it in the mystic toilet. Just a theory, but just like exotic gear it has to be an item that's been crafted afaik.

[Bast.7253]

Because it’s easier creating excessive grind than compelling gameplay, especially for a small indie studio of 10 employees.

 

Make black lion legendaries, make them a worse grind than regular legendaries and more expensive. 

[Astralporing.1957]

31 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

The same rules apply for ascended gear as for other rarities of gear afaik: it needs to be a crafted item.

Did you craft those ascended items originally or did you get them as loot/rewards? I suspect that the game counts it as crafted once you have stat changed it in the mystic toilet. Just a theory, but just like exotic gear it has to be an item that's been crafted afaik.

Yes, i know. My point exactly. The system is not helping me clear a ton of no longer useful ascended gear, because huge majority of ascended gear in players' possession is not crafted - nowadays there are far better avenues of obtaining it. And while stat-changing turns ascended weapons and armor into the same type as crafted ones (and thus researchable), it is also not cheap - making per point cost of Notes from ascended gear quite high compared to alternatives (and thus, a net loss).

[kharmin.7683]

As a very casual OWPvE player, I don't have a lot of ascended anything that I've crafted.  A few weapons here and there because I liked the skins for them, certainly not for any 5% boost because I really don't need that in OW.  As such, the process for obtaining items with research notes pretty much locks me out.  I'd rather not spend my limited time in-game crafting ascended things just to trash them for notes.

I can more easily farm other currencies simply by engaging in the regions where they can be found.  Over time, I can acquire enough zone currency to pick up whatever I might want from the map vendors.  This makes a lot more sense to me as doing so causes me to actually engage in game-play on various maps rather than spending my time at a crafting station.

I feel that I really don't have this option when it comes to research notes.

[Silent.6137]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, i know. My point exactly. The system is not helping me clear a ton of no longer useful ascended gear, because huge majority of ascended gear in players' possession is not crafted - nowadays there are far better avenues of obtaining it. And while stat-changing turns ascended weapons and armor into the same type as crafted ones (and thus researchable), it is also not cheap - making per point cost of Notes from ascended gear quite high compared to alternatives (and thus, a net loss).

What would you have done with ascended non-crafted items if you didn't have this option?

For me, absolutely nothing. Don't need any of the salvaged drops. You can't sell them on TP or to vendors. You can't convert Ascended dropped items to gold anyways, so the cost is realistically zero. Of course, you can use it on alts but if they are gathering dust in your bank, you can assume they are of no value.

And why is it a net loss?

To stat change it will cost less than 1g + 10 spirit shards. Many will have tons of spirit shards that they'll never use. Only useful if they are used to craft items for profit. So we can essentially ignore the cost of shards. Assuming the total cost as 1g,  according to the research, it'll cost 1s/note. Which is not good. However, the real cost will be anywhere from 20 to 50c/note. This is significantly a lot less than the next cheapest item.

You can't equate the value of the item to the cost of crafting them unless you can retrieve the materials required, Which you can't.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

What would you have done with ascended non-crafted items if you didn't have this option?

For me, absolutely nothing. Don't need any of the salvaged drops. You can't sell them on TP or to vendors. You can't convert Ascended dropped items to gold anyways, so the cost is realistically zero. Of course, you can use it on alts but if they are gathering dust in your bank, you can assume they are of no value.

Raid ascended can actually be salvaged for magnetites, but you are generally right - apart from the few that have a bit better vendor values, or can give additional salvag options,  ascended often cannot be converted to gold.

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

And why is it a net loss?

To stat change it will cost less than 1g + 10 spirit shards. Many will have tons of spirit shards that they'll never use. Only useful if they are used to craft items for profit. So we can essentially ignore the cost of shards.

That's like ignoring the cost of materials for crafting because some people will stockpile them so they are "essentially free". Unfortunately for you, opportunity costs still need to be factored in. Those 10 spirit shards are worth somewhere around 5 to 8 gold if you wonder. To which we add ~80s-1g in ecto and insignia/inscription.

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

Assuming the total cost as 1g,  according to the research, it'll cost 1s/note. Which is not good. However, the real cost will be anywhere from 20 to 50c/note. This is significantly a lot less than the next cheapest item.

First of all, i have no idea how you got to the much lowered "real cost". Probably by ignoring the cost of even more elements (ecto, i guess) due to you having lot of them? Second, the initial value of 1g at which you arrived at is significantly lowered due to you ignoring the spirit shards. You should multiply the cost by 6-7. Which brings it very far away from the cheap research note options.

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

You can't equate the value of the item to the cost of crafting them unless you can retrieve the materials required, Which you can't.

Indeed. You don't lose materials in ascended here. You lose the gold you used in stat-change. Had you tried to get the same number of Research Notes using the cheap options available, you'd easily end up with 70-80% of that gold still in hand.

You lose gold by massively overpaying for each research point obtained.

[Silent.6137]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's like ignoring the cost of materials for crafting because some people will stockpile them so they are "essentially free". Unfortunately for you, opportunity costs still need to be factored in. Those 10 spirit shards are worth somewhere around 5 to 8 gold if you wonder. To which we add ~80s-1g in ecto and insignia/inscription.

That's not even close to accurate. As I said, only useful if you craft items for profit. Even then, you based the value on best case scenario if you craft in bulk and you'll get the same returns each time. It just doesn't work that way. Buy enough of the low cost mats to promote the items, and their prices will be so high soon enough it's no longer worthwhile. Otherwise, someone with 10k shards will have 50k gold almost instantly. Those best case scenario prices are always based on highest Sell Price. Go use just 1k shards to promote and list them on TP at those prices and see how long before you'll even get the gold back.

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

First of all, i have no idea how you got to the much lowered "real cost". Probably by ignoring the cost of even more elements (ecto, i guess) due to you having lot of them? Second, the initial value of 1g at which you arrived at is significantly lowered due to you ignoring the spirit shards. You should multiply the cost by 6-7. Which brings it very far away from the cheap research note options.

Yes, I ignore best case scenario spirit shards cost because they're useless unless I actively use them to make gold. Taking in the extreme fluctuations in costs of mats if too much of a high profit item is put on the market, the value of shards are hardly even worth a tiny fraction of 5 to 8 gold each. Otherwise, everyone with 1000's of shards will all be rushing to cash in. It takes lots of time and effort to craft, list and wait for your returns. Many easier and faster ways to earn gold, and make more gph.

And no, I'm not ignoring the cost of any of the components.

Stats changing cost = Item+inscription/insignia+5 ectos+10 shards. Go check the current Sell Prices for those items. Round them up to next higher number. Salvaging ascended items will yield 100 to 500 notes. If we'd to assume an average of 250/item salvaged(average yield is higher than that), and cost of 1g, that's 40c/note. Or cost of 1.5g, that'll be 60c/note.

Note: Although I mentioned I don't place any value on shards, I do assign between 2 to 5s per shards. Nothing more.

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Astralporing.1957]

55 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

That's not even close to accurate. As I said, only useful if you craft items for profit. Even then, you based the value on best case scenario if you craft in bulk and you'll get the same returns each time. It just doesn't work that way. Buy enough of the low cost mats to promote the items, and their prices will be so high soon enough it's no longer worthwhile.

Untrue. The market of those mats is so big that you won't impact it in a significant way.

55 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

Otherwise, someone with 10k shards will have 50k gold almost instantly. Those best case scenario prices are always based on highest Sell Price. Go use just 1k shards to promote and list them on TP at those prices and see how long before you'll even get the gold back.

Yes, I ignore best case scenario spirit shards cost because they're useless unless I actively use them to make gold. Taking in the extreme fluctuations in costs of mats if too much of a high profit item is put on the market, the value of shards are hardly even worth a tiny fraction of 5 to 8 gold each. Otherwise, everyone with 1000's of shards will all be rushing to cash in. It takes lots of time and effort to craft, list and wait for your returns. Many easier and faster ways to earn gold, and make more gph.

Not each.I gave the value for 10 shards. And the 5 to 8 one is realistic, not the best scenario (that would be 9.5 gold for 10 shards currently). 50-60 silver per shard is easily achievable even if you use hundreds of shards at a time.

And yes, if everyone with shards have been converting them, that value would have been much lower, but the same goes for all materials. We're not talking about everyone however - we're talking about people with lot of ascended gear to spare and interested in Research Notes. That's an extremely tiny minority.

55 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

Note: Although I mentioned I don't place any value on shards, I do assign between 2 to 5s per shards. Nothing more.

And that's the issue. They are worth nowhere that low. Everything can seem cheap if you ignore the biggest part of the cost, like you do here.

[Silent.6137]

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Untrue. The market of those mats is so big that you won't impact it in a significant way.

If you craft a big enough quantity, you can certainly affect the markets. Why? Mainly because of domino effects. You suddenly take a big chunk of the lower Buy Prices postings off, thus making mats more expensive to buy. Speculators will start buying up low cost mats in the hope of making quick profits as the prices rise. And list them for higher and higher prices. Until it reaches a saturation point.

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Not each.I gave the value for 10 shards. And the 5 to 8 one is realistic, not the best scenario (that would be 9.5 gold for 10 shards currently). 50-60 silver per shard is easily achievable even if you use hundreds of shards at a time.

And yes, if everyone with shards have been converting them, that value would have been much lower, but the same goes for all materials. We're not talking about everyone however - we're talking about people with lot of ascended gear to spare and interested in Research Notes. That's an extremely tiny minority.

And that's the issue. They are worth nowhere that low. Everything can seem cheap if you ignore the biggest part of the cost, like you do here.

They are worth that low unless they are being used. You're equating Potential Profits with Realized Profits. I do know lots of people with huge amount of shards that they'll almost never use. If un-utilized, they are worth zero gold. If you craft lots with shards and they're buried until sold, they're worth zero. Many of the listed items on TP will never get sold because they are so far buried or are being constantly priced-undercut.

If it's that easy and is worth 1/2 to 1 gold each, people will be jumping on it instantly. Players are not totally clueless when there's something that will make them fast and easy gold. And we're talking about crafting with shards and their perceived value. Research Notes and how many players have lots of spare Ascended to salvage is hardly a factor since, as you said, they're an extremely tiny minority.

And no. I'm not ignoring the biggest part of the cost because in my estimations, you're valuing them way way above what they should be.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Gehenna.3625]

8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, i know. My point exactly. The system is not helping me clear a ton of no longer useful ascended gear, because huge majority of ascended gear in players' possession is not crafted - nowadays there are far better avenues of obtaining it. And while stat-changing turns ascended weapons and armor into the same type as crafted ones (and thus researchable), it is also not cheap - making per point cost of Notes from ascended gear quite high compared to alternatives (and thus, a net loss).

Yeah, I understand why you would want to get rid of your ascended gear, but the point of research notes is a material sink and those ascended items therefore wouldn't serve that purpose. 

I guess all you can do with them is salvage them for Vision Crystals but that's not useful either. I suspect that Anet probably won't do anything for that though. I wouldn't craft ascended armor either for research notes, but since most of my Ascended gear is crafted, I get like 450 research notes per armor piece. Not a bad return on the mats it takes to do stat changing though I would think. 

[draxynnic.3719]

I think Silent is right in respect to converting spirit shards to gold just not being worth it. Sure, you could. But in the time taken, you could be earning similar gold by playing other content, have more fun, and still have your spirit shards in reserve. 

Mind you, similar comments could be made regarding stat switching ascended items so they can be research salvaged, versus a regular ascended salvage and receiving the materials from that.

[Astralporing.1957]

18 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

If you craft a big enough quantity, you can certainly affect the markets. Why? Mainly because of domino effects. You suddenly take a big chunk of the lower Buy Prices postings off, thus making mats more expensive to buy. Speculators will start buying up low cost mats in the hope of making quick profits as the prices rise. And list them for higher and higher prices. Until it reaches a saturation point.

Yes, that's true. Except a lot of the high profit spirit shard converter recipes are using mats that are sold and bought on markets in truly massive amounts. That "big enough quantity" you speak of in those cases would be so massive to be unrealistic to achieve by individual players.

18 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

They are worth that low unless they are being used.

That's true of exactly everything. So, by your reasoning nothing would be worth anything of meaningful value at all, and you could ignore it. Those ectos in the recipe could be as easily ignored using the same way of thinking, for example.

18 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

You're equating Potential Profits with Realized Profits. I do know lots of people with huge amount of shards that they'll almost never use.

Yes, indeed. Just like most of players sell directly to buy offers (or buy directly from sell offers). Or keep a ton of valuable mats they will never use in their banks, and then complain they are dirt-poor. So? People not realizing the value of their resources does not cause those resources to lose have value. It only causes those players to lose out on them.

18 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

If un-utilized, they are worth zero gold. If you craft lots with shards and they're buried until sold, they're worth zero. Many of the listed items on TP will never get sold because they are so far buried or are being constantly priced-undercut.

Yes, but in case of mass commodities there's not much danger of that unless you go for really risky pricings.

18 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

If it's that easy and is worth 1/2 to 1 gold each, people will be jumping on it instantly. Players are not totally clueless when there's something that will make them fast and easy gold. And we're talking about crafting with shards and their perceived value. Research Notes and how many players have lots of spare Ascended to salvage is hardly a factor since, as you said, they're an extremely tiny minority.

Most players are clueless about how they can gain money. The few that know better profit from that general lack of knowledge. If everyone was truly as informed as you think, there would be no TP barons, and wealth ingame would have been much mroe evenly spread.

You can always decide to lose gold because you don't want to inform yourself, but don't kid yourself, you are losing gold by acting that way. The fact that most players are likely acting the same way you do does not make a difference here.

18 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

And no. I'm not ignoring the biggest part of the cost because in my estimations, you're valuing them way way above what they should be.

Then your estimations are wrong. Perhaps you should stop trying to look at which value they should be, and look at which value they actually are.

[Silent.6137]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's true of exactly everything. So, by your reasoning nothing would be worth anything of meaningful value at all, and you could ignore it. Those ectos in the recipe could be as easily ignored using the same way of thinking, for example.

There's a big difference between items that are required in many needed recipes and being used very frequently, and items such as currencies. Some currencies can't be ignored such as those for Skyscales. Other currencies like Dungeon  (Relics, Delvings, etc.), Raid, Strike, Keys, Maps, etc. are often ignored because their uses are often limited or if converted will bring little value.

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Most players are clueless about how they can gain money. The few that know better profit from that general lack of knowledge. If everyone was truly as informed as you think, there would be no TP barons, and wealth ingame would have been much mroe evenly spread.

Any easy and fast ways to earn gold will not be a secret for very long in any games, especially an MMO such as GW2. Guides abounds. Goggle it and you'll find several instantly. You'll hear it being discussed or asked constantly in big guilds. Yes, there are TP Barons. Everyone knows that including the poor players. So why are these players struggling for gold not doing what the TP Barons are doing? Simple answer: Time and fun. You too can be a TP Baron if you have the time to wait and wait and if you find playing the market fun. But most players do not have the time to wait and/or find playing the market tedious and boring.

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You can always decide to lose gold because you don't want to inform yourself, but don't kid yourself, you are losing gold by acting that way. The fact that most players are likely acting the same way you do does not make a difference here.

Then your estimations are wrong. Perhaps you should stop trying to look at which value they should be, and look at which value they actually are.

I do inform myself, thank you very much. Otherwise, I will not be debating this with you. I may not be a TP Baron but I would consider myself amongst the top 10th percentile at least in terms of items/gold. And regardless of what value some of you place on currencies such as shards, I value them at just a mere fraction of that. In this case, one tenth of your value. As I said, better and faster ways to earn gold. And have lots of fun doing them with the time I have.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Ashen.2907]

3 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

Any easy and fast ways to earn gold will not be a secret for very long in any games, especially an MMO such as GW2. Guides abounds. Goggle it and you'll find several instantly

Largely irrelevant because many (probably most) players do not engage with the game that way. If they did then those methods would not work.

[Silent.6137]

4 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Largely irrelevant because many (probably most) players do not engage with the game that way. If they did then those methods would not work.

"Any easy and fast ways to earn gold"

It is extremely relevant and players do engage with the game that way. Those easy and fast ways do not last long once they are widely known because the supply will out-strip the demand by a huge margin. Take Chunk of Pure Jade, for example. Before they set a limit and players knew about it, it was a fast and easy way to make lots of gold. Prices were 3 times that of vendor price. Words got around very very fast and within days they were not worth anything on TP.

Those guides that I mentioned, they were good at that time but majority are obsolete because of price fluctuations. And the cycles will keep repeating - new ways found, players rush to do them, guides are published, prices fall, look for new way, etc., etc.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Smurfiness.3714]

After bread what's the cheapest way to get notes?

[Astralporing.1957]

7 hours ago, Smurfiness.3714 said:

After bread what's the cheapest way to get notes?

At this moment? Salvage-crafting (crafting with the research box ticked on) barbaric helms (cheapest atm are Valkyrie and Rampager) and mithril earrings (most types).

[zealex.9410]

Its a crafting currency so pick and item that can be crafted into notes then craft away.

As for the salvage kit arguement i dont get it, just because you can use a basic kit on everything doesnt mean u should and ascended salvage kits only exist for asc. I personally use my research kit during gameplay for ascended drops i dont want. 

 

Research notes become a non problem the moment you stop optimizing.

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, zealex.9410 said:

Its a crafting currency so pick and item that can be crafted into notes then craft away.

As for the salvage kit arguement i dont get it, just because you can use a basic kit on everything doesnt mean u should and ascended salvage kits only exist for asc. I personally use my research kit during gameplay for ascended drops i dont want. 

 

Research notes become a non problem the moment you stop optimizing.

As a very casual player, I have never had an ascended drop.  So, this method gate-keeps players like me from really gaining any research notes.

[Ashen.2907]

17 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

"Any easy and fast ways to earn gold"

It is extremely relevant and players do engage with the game that way. Those easy and fast ways do not last long once they are widely known because the supply will out-strip the demand by a huge margin. Take Chunk of Pure Jade, for example. Before they set a limit and players knew about it, it was a fast and easy way to make lots of gold. Prices were 3 times that of vendor price. Words got around very very fast and within days they were not worth anything on TP.

Those guides that I mentioned, they were good at that time but majority are obsolete because of price fluctuations. And the cycles will keep repeating - new ways found, players rush to do them, guides are published, prices fall, look for new way, etc., etc.

Those rushing to online guides and the like, doing research to play a game, are a tiny portion of the total population. I am not saying that players, some, dont research efficiencies in game play. I am saying that when considering the playerbase as a whole such is not generally the case. If the playerbase as a whole was doing so then those efficient farms would not work.