The guardian Nov 29 "preview".

[Ruisenior.6342]

18 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

Firebrand just needs less access to aegis barfing on people. It's a badly designed boon that promoted being bad by not dodging or moving. The LITERAL only difference between HFB and every other healer is just aegis spam from the heal mantra. Remove that and HFB will be pretty much completely balanced and interchangeable with heal quickness herald and heal alac tempest/druid. The only reason they AREN'T is because of how good aegis spam in fractals is. We don't need support builds getting more aegis we just need less of it. Leave it locked behind long CD abilities like aftershock on tempest and distortion on mesmer (which is only when taking insp anyways). 

 

Ideally we shouldn't be homogenizing classes.. but anet seem pretty intent on getting alternatives to roles and this is pretty much the fastest way to do so. Plus like I said aegis is pretty op to begin with especially with it being THAT available. I just hope that once the game gets to a balanced state where baseline supports can apply more or less all the necessary basic boons and one of the big 2 boons (alac/quick) that anet will slowly start adding unique buffs and such back into the game so each class can have a unique reason to be picked without suffocating the meta instead of just leaving everything homogenized.

This guy is a hardcore Gw2 Gamer.  You made my day bro!!

[Ruisenior.6342]

16 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

??

I was wrong about heal mantra and will freely admit that, but that does not discredit what I actually said. I forgot about that patch and I don't play my guard especially FB really at all. It's an extremely bland and generic class IMHO and I can never get myself to stick to it. The reason we can't have nice things or civil discussions though is actually because of people like you taking a simple, borderline unimportant mistake and blowing it out of proportion to try and dismiss my entire point. I was actually complaining about aegis as a whole not just specifically the mantra I was mistaken about the way it's applied. Gw2armory tooltips on websites shows the pve + pvp tooltip combined (so it showed all 3 boons) with no distinction between what was pve and what was pvp boon wise just fyi that's the main reason I misspoke.

 

Either way anet is moving towards homogenization right now and for as long as that's the path they want to take I'd much rather there be less aegis and possibly even stability than more. They're essentially training wheels in the same way that a heal scourge would be except they just block stuff so you don't even learn and they never come off because they're op at every stage of the game. Good or bad players. Druid and tempest have just the right amount. One ability (or pet ability in druids case) with a moderate cool down. 2 sources could be fine, but guard has shield of judgement, 2 charges of advance, and protectors strike on mace. Not to mention that protectors strike and shield of judgement also have considerably lower cool downs than the white tiger's roar or aftershock. Oh and FB does have more aegis than core guard. It's called "Epilogue: Unbroken Lines", you know, skill 5 on tome of courage. It's not a primary source over the others I listed but it's conveniently there if you happen to already be in that tome when you do need aegis and it'll always be up when you go into that tome because it's a 12 second CD. Gives stab, protection and a unique buff too. But yea, go off about "people who give opinions without basic knowledge" because you are clearly the most knowledgeable person here.

You are mistaken, the reason we ain't geting proper balance is cause people like you.

Firebrand is probably the best crafted and beautifull class that ive played on any game, and im not even a main of it. Every time i put my hands on Firebrand, it reminds me why i love playing this kind of videogames.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Ruisenior.6342

[Solstice.5790]

52 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Now we need to ask: Why do so many people play Firebrand in WvW?

The answer would be :

 [...]

 

I thought the answer was:

5. "Cannot be knocked down, pushed back, pulled, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, feared, or taunted"

With everyone and their mother throwing these effects on you either personally or via siege, and the only sufficient amount of counter-stability currently being provided by Firebrand - you probably want one in your group in WvW.
Some healing and cleansing for all the other condis on top of that are nice added boni.

And what really gets me is that players complain about being supported, that is so weird.

 

At this point though, the entire discussion about the class is just pointless in my opinion.

I understand that a lot of players find Firebrand overpowered, because it can do a lot of things. It just seems to me that not that many people realize that it can't do a lot of things well and at the same time. A good example is the "12 second cooldown" on F3-5 mentioned in Hallow.7368's post above. Completely ignoring the actual tome cd especially for non-support-FBs.

Yes, you can do good healing and cleansing, but then your damage is awful.

Yes, you can provide a lot of blocks and stability, hitting both your healing and your dps.

Yes, you can do decent damage, then your healing and blocks will suffer.

Just look at your own healing stats, look at the cleanse counters, look at the... strips? Look at your own dps meter, look at snowcrows... Firebrand is not the best raw healer, not the best for cleansing, it is not the best dps, not used to tank anything...

It is versatile, that is it's defining feature - take that away (which will happen), and you know what you have left.

 

Firebrand is my most played class, because I enjoy having the option to pop into a different role in those oh-kitten-moments once to help the group out.

But apparently every single layer has to be peeled off first before people realized that, at it's core, it was just a boring old onion.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Solstice.5790

[Sylvari.2953]

I'm so tired of the FB nerfs/changes, they should buff DH and WB instead. I've been waiting for a proper Longbow rework for years.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Sylvari.2953

[poop.4183]

12 hours ago, Sylvari.2953 said:

I'm so tired of the FB nerfs/changes, they should buff DH and WB instead. I've been waiting for a proper Longbow rework for years.

Indeed , in favor of buffing the less active class to line them up to the most played , DH and WB are literally inexistent in pve . Cause firebrand too strong ? or cause those two are badly designed for pve or lack something ?

[Antina.5973]

3 hours ago, poop.4183 said:

Indeed , in favor of buffing the less active class to line them up to the most played , DH and WB are literally inexistent in pve . Cause firebrand too strong ? or cause those two are badly designed for pve or lack something ?

For me FB is just the last standing spec for guard in pve.

[Hallow.7368]

On 11/10/2022 at 6:04 AM, Ruisenior.6342 said:

You are mistaken, the reason we ain't geting proper balance is cause people like you.

Firebrand is probably the best crafted and beautifull class that ive played on any game, and im not even a main of it. Every time i put my hands on Firebrand, it reminds me why i love playing this kind of videogames.

Huh?

I said I found it personally boring not that I found it poorly designed.

I don't like the aesthetics or it's gameplay, but that doesn't mean I want it to be weak or bad so that others can't play it if they want to. I'm simply stating that aegis spam is the primary reason other healers tend to be unable to compare to firebrand especially in fractals. Aegis is just too overpowered and promotes stale gameplay by letting you just ignore attacks and stability has similar issues. 

I'm simply stating that since they're trying to balance supports to the same level so they're interchangeable in content I'd rather them reduce aegis to around or possibly a little more than what druid and tempest currently have to, you know, actually incentivize playing the game over having a class that just spam blocks against important enemy skills for your entire group or make you immune to a cc so you can avoid doing a mechanic.

Even if you don't run a HFB 9.9/10 times you end up running a DPS firebrand because they still bring plenty of aegis, stability, condi cleanse and projectile reflect. All of those are literally baked into their utility tomes so you don't even have to sacrifice an actual utility slot unless you need EXTRA. Technically speaking I think most pugs actually prefer a cele FB because HFB is just completely overkill and cele FB already brings more healing, stability and aegis than anyone could ever need to survive. Meanwhile the other supports need to (typically) go full healer and druid has to sacrifice a pet slot for aegis on a 25 second CD and tempest has to take aftershock which is a 30 second CD.

So yea I'm not really sure how "we ain't getting proper balance" has ANYTHING to do with literally anything about me, but sure. I'm explaining to you why firebrand is the most dominant support in the game and that anet in seeing that will only continue to up the aegis the other classes bring in order to "balance them" and that I think aegis overall is just unhealthy for the game so I'd much rather guard aoe aegis access be brought down rather than other classes access be brought up. I'm completely aware that aegis is a major factor in guard's self survivability so they could just add more sources of self aegis. I'd be saying the exact same thing if it were any other class. My goal isn't really to bring down the power of the class.. just to avoid having EVEN more of a game breaking defensive boon in the game.

[Hallow.7368]

On 11/10/2022 at 6:04 AM, Ruisenior.6342 said:

You are mistaken, the reason we ain't geting proper balance is cause people like you.

Firebrand is probably the best crafted and beautifull class that ive played on any game, and im not even a main of it. Every time i put my hands on Firebrand, it reminds me why i love playing this kind of videogames.

Huh?

I said I found it personally boring not that I found it poorly designed.

I don't like the aesthetics or it's gameplay, but that doesn't mean I want it to be weak or bad so that others can't play it if they want to. I'm simply stating that aegis spam is the primary reason other healers tend to be unable to compare to firebrand especially in fractals. Aegis is just too overpowered and promotes stale gameplay by letting you just ignore attacks and stability has similar issues. 

I'm simply stating that since they're trying to balance supports to the same level so they're interchangeable in content I'd rather them reduce aegis to around or possibly a little more than what druid and tempest currently have to, you know, actually incentivize playing the game over having a class that just spam blocks against important enemy skills for your entire group or make you immune to a cc so you can avoid doing a mechanic.

Even if you don't run a HFB 9.9/10 times you end up running a DPS firebrand because they still bring plenty of aegis, stability, condi cleanse and projectile reflect. All of those are literally baked into their utility tomes so you don't even have to sacrifice an actual utility slot unless you need EXTRA. Technically speaking I think most pugs actually prefer a cele FB because HFB is just completely overkill and cele FB already brings more healing, stability and aegis than anyone could ever need to survive. Meanwhile the other supports need to (typically) go full healer and druid has to sacrifice a pet slot for aegis on a 25 second CD and tempest has to take aftershock which is a 30 second CD.

So yea I'm not really sure how "we ain't getting proper balance" has ANYTHING to do with literally anything about me, but sure. I'm explaining to you why firebrand is the most dominant support in the game and that anet in seeing that will only continue to up the aegis the other classes bring in order to "balance them" and that I think aegis overall is just unhealthy for the game so I'd much rather guard aoe aegis access be brought down rather than other classes access be brought up. I'm completely aware that aegis is a major factor in guard's self survivability so they could just add more sources of self aegis. I'd be saying the exact same thing if it were any other class. My goal isn't really to bring down the power of the class.. just to avoid having EVEN more of a game breaking defensive boon in the game.

[Hallow.7368]

On 11/10/2022 at 6:17 AM, Solstice.5790 said:

 

I thought the answer was:

5. "Cannot be knocked down, pushed back, pulled, launched, stunned, dazed, floated, sunk, feared, or taunted"

With everyone and their mother throwing these effects on you either personally or via siege, and the only sufficient amount of counter-stability currently being provided by Firebrand - you probably want one in your group in WvW.
Some healing and cleansing for all the other condis on top of that are nice added boni.

And what really gets me is that players complain about being supported, that is so weird.

 

At this point though, the entire discussion about the class is just pointless in my opinion.

I understand that a lot of players find Firebrand overpowered, because it can do a lot of things. It just seems to me that not that many people realize that it can't do a lot of things well and at the same time. A good example is the "12 second cooldown" on F3-5 mentioned in Hallow.7368's post above. Completely ignoring the actual tome cd especially for non-support-FBs.

Yes, you can do good healing and cleansing, but then your damage is awful.

Yes, you can provide a lot of blocks and stability, hitting both your healing and your dps.

Yes, you can do decent damage, then your healing and blocks will suffer.

Just look at your own healing stats, look at the cleanse counters, look at the... strips? Look at your own dps meter, look at snowcrows... Firebrand is not the best raw healer, not the best for cleansing, it is not the best dps, not used to tank anything...

It is versatile, that is it's defining feature - take that away (which will happen), and you know what you have left.

 

Firebrand is my most played class, because I enjoy having the option to pop into a different role in those oh-kitten-moments once to help the group out.

But apparently every single layer has to be peeled off first before people realized that, at it's core, it was just a boring old onion.

 

 

Using my post as reference is completely troll because I'm talking in the context of pve. You don't need constant applications of stability/aegis in pve like you do in wvw. That being said the "jack of all trades defense" is pointless because literally all of the supports were buffed in order to try and "bring them up" to firebrand. They're all still actively worse at doing these things than firebrand. As long as these things remain available within the core kit of firebrand it'll be hard to compete for other supports because they'll have to take dedicated trait lines and utility spells just to do what a guard can mostly do with their baseline that they THEN amplify to be even better using utility and traits. Really all I want is for them to reduce sources of group aegis (in which guard is a HUGE outlier) rather than increase it for the other classes because I believe it's unhealthy for the game especially in large quantities for pve specifically, I'm not sure about pvp.

Personally I really like the tradeoff tempest has in its GM trait. You either choose your big boon (alac) which is typically used in pve or a massive increase in group survivability with an aura share build utilizing elemental bastion which is used more in pvp. Firebrand lacks actual tradeoffs. You have literally everything in your base kit and then you choose what you amplify with your utilities and traits, but that doesn't mean you lose access to the stuff you had baseline so regardless of what you pick you still have quickness and some access to everything and this is I believe what most people have issues with when it comes to firebrand. 

But me specifically? I just don't want the game to become aegis wars 2. Usually I'd be more in favor of buffing classes up to be equal to an outlier rather than nerf the outlier (unless it was lusciously op like scourge or FB before some of their past nerfs), but I really do think it'd be better for the game if we brought aoe aegis in the game down rather than bring multiple classes up to the level of aegis guard can output. Aoe aegis just actively dumbs down the game.

[Saiyan.1704]

I'm calling it, we're getting a change to Torch.

*crosses fingers*

[Infusion.7149]

So I guess the hunch was right, an initiative-like resource for tome pages.

[Cyninja.2954]

27 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

So I guess the hunch was right, an initiative-like resource for tome pages.

Yup, I was guessing they might make different skills cost different amounts too. Overall quite significant changes, we will have to wait and see how it works out live.

They did mention multiple times that these changes are significant and they will keep an eye on the class. Overall it's a massive utility loss for qdps firebrand and hybrid builds.

Pure support and dps firebrand might come off somewhat unscathed. Short term support utility goes down for better continuous access, but how the higher cost will affect this will have to be tested on live.

As to WvW... that's a very different story and my initial thoughts do not make it seem as though FB will remain in a good spot. They might remain in a necessary spot due to lack of stab access on other classes, but it will get tougher, especially with loss of cleanse and healing which will put more pressure on having a proper 2nd support.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Solstice.5790]

I enjoy being called a troll for noting that someone is factually wrong - independent of context. Especially when I'm not even talking about that person specifically but an underlying notion in general.

deleted the rest because Firebrand is overpowered

Edited November 11, 2022 by Solstice.5790

[EriskRedLemur.7153]

42 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yup, I was guessing they might make different skills cost different amounts too. Overall quite significant changes, we will have to wait and see how it works out live.

They did mention multiple times that these changes are significant and they will keep an eye on the class. Overall it's a massive utility loss for qdps firebrand and hybrid builds.

Pure support and dps firebrand might come off somewhat unscathed. Short term support utility goes down for better continuous access, but how the higher cost will affect this will have to be tested on live.

As to WvW... that's a very different story and my initial thoughts do not make it seem as though FB will remain in a good spot. They might remain in a necessary spot due to lack of stab access on other classes, but it will get tougher, especially with loss of cleanse and healing which will put more pressure on having a proper 2nd support.

 

Exactly, WvW support FB will still be... asked for because even with tome nerfs/stab reduction they still provide it better than others. I didn't see other classes get stab boosts so maybe I am wrong. So, like, it'll just be overall tougher to provide consistent stab.

[Buran.3796]

   I'll wait the implementation, but probably I'll end recasting one of my 3 Guardians in another class. I don't think that the new iteration of FB would be more fun to play than the previous one, an the current iteration has been dead in PvP for years... 

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I think alongside the damage buffs the rework might be ok? It's not absolutely gutting the class like I was fearing, but we'll have to see how it actually plays. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

The old playstyle had a strong identity for the tomes. Not perfect but it was something. They were fun, powerful abilities, but limited by CD and didn't require finger gymnastics to play. Now, I'm not sure. It looks like they took away some of the identity away for a bit more flexibility, and a lot more complexity and finger mashing.

I just worry 2 things:

1) It will play like a hectic games of jumping around of switching in and out of sets like ele and engi. The specific reason I don't play those classes. FB gave us a taste of that without requiring crazy keystrokes. I'm here to play a fun RPG, not a piano. We already have piano classes. I don't need my main to be one.
2) Will there be a use for scepter on FB now?

I would be happy with this rework with one change: revert Searing Spell back without the vulnerability, and maybe a nerf, but it doesn't cost a page use. Then ToJ could be like a kit or second weapon to help me feel like a real divine caster again.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Gaiawolf.8261

[chat.4062]

Huge nerf as wvw support :(, but i can t say i m surprise. I m pretty sure this dev team have no interest in wvw

[Buran.3796]

5 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

The old playstyle had a strong identity for the tomes. Not perfect but it was something. They were fun, powerful abilities, but limited by CD and didn't require finger gymnastics to play. Now, I'm not sure. It looks like they took away some of the identity away for a bit more flexibility, and a lot more complexity and finger mashing.

   Not sure about the flexibility: with skills costing up to 3 pages for the more dramatic ones you're extremely limited in ANY choice you make to be more specialized; probaly ballast traits which never were used as the extra pages will now be mandatory if you want the tomes to make any impact. I mean: swap to tome, release 2-3 skills, then camp auto attacking with axe for the next 12-16 seconds....  Yep, super fun. Instead I would chose just to run rifle Mech: you will use the same amount of F skills but you have range and if a foe with projectile hate emerges you just swap to flamethrower and you already have perma stab built in. That for the dps builds, I don't enjoy pure support so I don't care about healing FB...

   Edit: by the way, they should re-order the three last traits to match the retain of the passives with the F keys itselves, because as currently they are placed as  3,1,2 instead of 1,2,3 as it should. Also, to provide structure to the changes (currently the upper line of traits improve conditions and cc, the mid line quickness and aegis and the bottom line enhancements in the tomes) they should probably swap the order of the rest of the traits so the quickness/F1 line is in the upper line, conditions/F2 in the middle and tomes/F3 in the lower line. Follow the logic of the Mechanist, since is the milestone of the expansion.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Buran.3796

[Ragnar.4257]

Using PvP values (and a reminder to PvE folks, that while FB may be dominant in PvE, it is completely non-existant in PvP, literally nobody has played it for more than 2 years, it is very much in need of buffs in PvP, not nerfs):

Currently, every 100s, you can use 5.83 tomes. You can also use all 5 skills in each tome, and potentially even more traited.

In the new world, if we assume 3 pages per tome-usage, with 8s recharge per page, then that changes to 4.16 tome usages every 100s (and that's not even using all the skills in a tome, just 3 pages worth).

Now, given that the #5 skills in each tome will cost 2/3 pages just by themselves, 3 pages per tome-usage is actually not very realistic. 5 pages is a more realistic number. So if we assume 5 pages per tome-usage, with 8s recharge per page, then that goes down to 2.5 tome usages every 100s.

Going down from 5.83 to 2.5, is more than a 50% nerf, to a class which absolutely did NOT need nerfs (in PvP).

What this will mean is that if you're playing a boon-support, then you basically can't use Justice or Resolve, you will only use Courage. If you're playing a condi-dps, you can't use Resolve or Courage, you will only use Justice, etc etc

I understand the desire from the design team to push FB towards focusing on one particular tome rather than making use of all three, and that makes perfect sense for PvE. But for PvP this simply does not work. In PvP FB required significant buffs to get it out of F-tier, and its actually getting nerfed, and nerfed hard.

Overall I like the direction of the design for tomes, but the numbers feel way way off. The tome changes would be okay if they were complimented with Mantra/Axe buffs/reworks, but there's been no mention of anything around those. Infact, axe evens gets a soft-nerf, as now you won't want to take Unrelenting Criticism over Archivist of Whispers.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

What this will mean is that if you're playing a boon-support, then you basically can't use Justice or Resolve, you will only use Courage. If you're playing a condi-dps, you can't use Resolve or Courage, you will only use Justice, etc etc

   My impression is that they have 0 intentions to make a viable dps Firebrand build for PvP: is all oriented to try to replace core support Guardian, because having a class with no specs meta in PvP looks ugly from outside. Not like I care for that dead game mode, anyway.

   For sure, as the changes were listed, the new Firebrand will probably be a worse performer in WvW roaming, since it was kinda mediocre, only pushed by celestial stats. The changes could maybe improve the dps, but in terms of cc and defensive abilities it will be way weaker. But probably won't matter because a) they care 0 about FB outside zergs, and b) ANet is in the path to kill WvW in 2023 the same way as they killed PvP in 2022.

[Cyninja.2954]

4 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Going down from 5.83 to 2.5, is more than a 50% nerf, to a class which absolutely did NOT need nerfs (in PvP).

These changes are clearly not aimed at PvP but primarily PvE and to some extent WvW (this was also supposed to be a PvE patch first and foremost).

What I find most interesting is how almost no one makes a mention of the change to tome 3-1:

Chapter 1: Unflinching Charge: This skill now grants protection instead of stability.

Which is the most severe change in regards to WvW and stability uptime. The general idea obviously is to cut down on firebrands overall "free" access to utility in all builds to allow for better balance down the road. How that balance looks like, time will tell.

At least now individual aspects can be brought up without having to worry about having to deal with 3x5 skills and every utility in the game bar boon removal.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[LadyHawk.5319]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

What I find most interesting is how almost no one makes a mention of the change to tome 3-1:

Chapter 1: Unflinching Charge: This skill now grants protection instead of stability.

Which is the most severe change in regards to WvW and stability uptime.

Spamming book 3 page 1 is bad play. The skill is only conal. It is fine for a 'quickie' but should never ever just be spammed. Since it is conal, you only hit the people in front of you unless you turn around with each cast as you are running forward. Spamming this skill will get you pretty numbers in Arc reports for stab uptime, but doesn't really help the players next to you. 

 

[Potato Slayer.3107]

On 11/8/2022 at 2:53 AM, eldrevo.1746 said:

Or in fact I know what's the signet stuff is about.

To upkeep quickness, FB now has to use all 5 signets off cooldown. Without keeping the passives.

Top tier boon support design, innit?

You mean herald?

[Cyninja.2954]

15 hours ago, LadyHawk.5319 said:

Spamming book 3 page 1 is bad play. The skill is only conal. It is fine for a 'quickie' but should never ever just be spammed. Since it is conal, you only hit the people in front of you unless you turn around with each cast as you are running forward. Spamming this skill will get you pretty numbers in Arc reports for stab uptime, but doesn't really help the players next to you. 

 

I never said spamming, but in WvW it IS a major contributor to stab uptime during the first 2 cross-overs (even more if some subgroups are missing FB supports).

You are essentially going from tome 3:

- 5, 4, 3 (in publics, not gvg), occasional 1, 5+4 when up again

to:

-5, 4 or 3 (in publics)

- another 5 25s later

That's a massive stab loss in WvW for the first 25s. Unless you start using the elite to supplement initial stab requirements, which means you have no stab or at best 1 SYG while in tome 2 which will see no use any more (and if it does, say for skill 5, you are delaying stab access), again putting more pressure on the subgroup. Will this remove FB from comps in WvW, absolutely not because it remains the highest stab provider. Will this increase pressure on the rest of the groups composition? You bet.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Cyninja.2954