Mesmer in Reality

[Mell.4873]

Outside of all this forums pessimism Mesmer currently holds some of the best Elite Specialization spread in the game.

Gearing a single Chronomancer will let you support with either Alacrity or Quickness.
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Chronomancer_-_Boon_Support_Power_DPS

Virtuoso can be played either Power or Condition damage so learning this Elite with two gears sets lets you fill any Raid/Strike slot.
They both have equivalent benchmarks, https://imgur.com/4ywdVfN

Mirage is one of the highest skill ceiling classes in the game and when played to the full extent can see you survive almost any Open World or Fractal encounter.
I have been able single handedly carry any new players through content with this Elite Specialization.
GuildJen

Edited November 21, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

In Terms of sPvP we now have more proposed builds on metabattle with high ratings than post EoD launch.

• March this year: https://imgur.com/wvXI5Uz
• Now: https://imgur.com/QHGtdfw

WvW has not changed much, Chronomancer is still one of the top used Elite for WvW Zergs.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Joxer.6024]

moved

Edited November 21, 2022 by Joxer.6024

[Justine.6351]

I sure hope they don't nerf mesmer too bad even though it's long overdue for a good balance pass to bring it down to the other specs out there currently.

[Ashford.8540]

1 hour ago, Justine.6351 said:

I sure hope they don't nerf mesmer too bad even though it's long overdue for a good balance pass to bring it down to the other specs out there currently.

When players are so used to their class being neglected and abused to the point they think they deserve a nerf when they are even slightly good

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by KillaFin.9302

[Justine.6351]

16 minutes ago, KillaFin.9302 said:

When player are so used to their class being neglected and abused to the point they think they deserve a nerf when they are even slightly good

 

When player are so used to the game playing itself they cannot cope with a nerf

(insert random youtube clip)

[Ashford.8540]

7 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

When player are so used to the game playing itself they cannot cope with a nerf

(insert random youtube clip)

It ain't random if it's an accurate clip.

[Mell.4873]

7 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

I sure hope they don't nerf mesmer too bad even though it's long overdue for a good balance pass to bring it down to the other specs out there currently.

They wont nerf anything since it is already inline with most other Elites, That is kind of my point.

They already dropped the DPS of Virtuoso down to 37k which now brings it inline with most other competitive DPS. The reason it gets played so often is because it is arguably easier (not really but that is the perception).
Chronomancer has had almost 0 changes besides adding back Distortion and more distinctly splitting the Boons otherwise its roles has been roughly the same for years.
Mirage has had huge resistance to any change since it is one of the hardest Elites to play.

 

The real reason Mesmer is in such good state is because most other dominant profession got nerfs, this made room for other Elites to take the limelight.

[Infusion.7149]

The only outlier is PVE condi virtuoso due to the ease although it does require regeneration for the chaos variant.
Power virtuoso is easier than power chrono, but it is by no means massively easier than power specs such as bladesworn (which is mostly positioning), spellbreaker, DH, vindicator, daredevil, soulbeast, berserker, scrapper, reaper (why play this in instanced content by the way), etc. The only outlier would be the range on it which is already kept in check by a 10% modifier that is lost when you aren't in melee range and in fractals especially Vicious Expression leads to 15% DPS loss even if the target has a boon other than protection. People aren't AFKing to get 20K+ DPS at range especially on power versions.

As far as condi: if they nerf axe mirage and don't even fix the bugs it is pure incompetence.

If you are talking about competitive modes, the one dodge mirage meme is still in effect which is why the utility bar has jaunt and blink on most of those builds. In WvW you are basically not going to play virtuoso due to projectiles so chrono is the way to go there. In PVP you can get away with one dodge if you play well but it still is exceptionally poor design in terms of splitting the number of dodges in competitive modes.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[viquing.8254]

@op

Can you just stop writing we are all pessimistic and you have the true comprehension about mesmer please it's kinda boring.

You want to know what mesmer used to be ?

Go https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer

Look at pinned posts.

Look at vids.

What I'm mad about is not that mesmer isn't "viable". It's that they take away 75% of mesmer gameplay to give it to others classes.

There were plenty of hypocritical things who were taking out of mesmer and fine on other classes.

 

Just what problems did you have with people like me who suffer this deterioration for years huh ?

Stop being snobbish and pedantic while juste seeing what you want to see. You enjoy the game, fine, good for you.

Mesmer in reality for me is far less enjoyable because it has far less specificity and gameplay options than before. And it's worst when I look at actions/outputs ratio, classes regarding.

[Leonidrex.5649]

in the past 3 years I havent seen a single chrono in fractals ( other then me )
I saw I think 3 mirages and like 4 virtuosos.
In pvp mesmer still remains the worst in the game, holding hands with warrior at the bottom.
Mesmer is good in raids, thats all there is to it.
Its bad in fractals, bad in pvp, bad in wvw. It is what it is.

EDIT
also devs actively try to make the class as unfun as they can, maliciously making the class as unenjoyable as possible. its crazy to me that they can actively remove QOL and make the class clunkier and people have their tongues so far up their kitten nobody even says anything anymore.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Leonidrex.5649

[Varis.5467]

12 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

in the past 3 years I havent seen a single chrono in fractals ( other then me )
I saw I think 3 mirages and like 4 virtuosos.
In pvp mesmer still remains the worst in the game, holding hands with warrior at the bottom.
Mesmer is good in raids, thats all there is to it.
Its bad in fractals, bad in pvp, bad in wvw. It is what it is.

EDIT
also devs actively try to make the class as unfun as they can, maliciously making the class as unenjoyable as possible. its crazy to me that they can actively remove QOL and make the class clunkier and people have their tongues so far up their kitten nobody even says anything anymore.

Can't agree more.

 

The treatment mesmer recieved over time and especially in the last few patches is simply depressing. Many agrees and see that mesmer are indeed not in a great spot. 

 

And then you see a few regulars on the forum with that blind positivity claiming the class is fine...(e.g. mesmer is good because other classes are nerfed now...............? What logic is that?). 

 

This game has more game modes than just open world PvE where any kitten builds is fine. Do people even realise that? 

 

 

 

[Moradorin.6217]

12 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

in the past 3 years I havent seen a single chrono in fractals ( other then me )
I saw I think 3 mirages and like 4 virtuosos.
In pvp mesmer still remains the worst in the game, holding hands with warrior at the bottom.
Mesmer is good in raids, thats all there is to it.
Its bad in fractals, bad in pvp, bad in wvw. It is what it is.

EDIT
also devs actively try to make the class as unfun as they can, maliciously making the class as unenjoyable as possible. its crazy to me that they can actively remove QOL and make the class clunkier and people have their tongues so far up their kitten nobody even says anything anymore.

agreed

[AshkyLicious.4729]

1 hour ago, xxXLightningXxx.8476 said:

Can't agree more.

 

The treatment mesmer recieved over time and especially in the last few patches is simply depressing. Many agrees and see that mesmer are indeed not in a great spot. 

 

And then you see a few regulars on the forum with that blind positivity claiming the class is fine...(e.g. mesmer is good because other classes are nerfed now...............? What logic is that?). 

 

This game has more game modes than just open world PvE where any kitten builds is fine. Do people even realise that? 

 

 

 

The only reason to why people goes on with this false positivity is to actually keep mesmer and its specs in a bad place, because they had/have a hard time facing them in competetive modes. So the best thing they can do is try to spread their false positive view and hope that Anet rather listens to them than to people who actually tries to get Mesmer fixed.

And for those of you who said in this thread that "people just wants a game that plays itself", you are clearly posting in the wrong professsion forum. Go to engi forums instead and complain about Mechs, since there u have spec that actually plays itself! Mesmer has never been a profession who played itself, both historically and in present time! The people who claims this arent any Mesmer players at all, just BS:ers that obviously sucks at facing Mesmers for some reason...

[Varis.5467]

19 minutes ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

The only reason to why people goes on with this false positivity is to actually keep mesmer and its specs in a bad place, because they had/have a hard time facing them in competetive modes. So the best thing they can do is try to spread their false positive view and hope that Anet rather listens to them than to people who actually tries to get Mesmer fixed.

And for those of you who said in this thread that "people just wants a game that plays itself", you are clearly posting in the wrong professsion forum. Go to engi forums instead and complain about Mechs, since there u have spec that actually plays itself! Mesmer has never been a profession who played itself, both historically and in present time! The people who claims this arent any Mesmer players at all, just BS:ers that obviously sucks at facing Mesmers for some reason...

 

Yeah sometimes I do wonder if certain individuals could go such length for something like this, but then this is the internet after all. 

 

There seem to be an growing trend among this group of players to flex playtime and slap the good o' L2P label whenever an argument is countered by factual data and information in attempt to shut down the conversation.

 

 

[Ellon.4316]

Agree with the overall sentiment here that mesmer is not fine. Sure virtuoso hits nice DPS, we have alac and quickness options etc.. The possibility is there but the focus from anet in the latest balance patches feels like some power co-efficients gets changed and that's it.

Having a weapon "hit harder" isn't a fix for the gaps in the mesmer spec and i rather have them fix those then increase sword DPS by a tiny bit. Some examples:

• An entire traitline dependent on the regen boon WITHOUT a single utility or weapon skill that consistently gives this boon. This won't show up in DPS benchmarks.
• Only one blast finisher (second to last place spec has 4) on a 3 second cooldown. Those ethereal fields aren't going to combo with themselves. Having a entire heart in Seitung Provence dedicated to teaching combo's and not being able to actually use some combo's feels bad.
• Scepter that barely hits 50% of what staff hits. How am i  going to explain a beginner that a condi weapon with condi gear and condi traits is the wrong choice?
• Crit chance trait on chrono being dependent on slow but zero runes/sigils that help, compare that to rune of the firebrand that gives exactly whats needed.
• Even with equipment changes this would still be the wrong choice because "improved alacrity" is just plain better. I want options in my build, not wrong choices.

These are just some points i encountered during theory crafting, i bet others have their own list of things that need fixing. Part of the reason why i think this forum is more pessimistic then the others is that changes that affect the few good choices have immediate impact on a build and more often then not you cant work-around it by swapping some traits.

This is coming from a filthy pve open-world casual (ok, also play fractals/raids/strikes so not that casual)

 

[dead.7638]

It’s all an illusion, exile.

[dead.7638]

Ahh kitten, wrong game.

[Mell.4873]

20 hours ago, viquing.8254 said:

@op

Can you just stop writing we are all pessimistic and you have the true comprehension about mesmer please it's kinda boring.

You want to know what mesmer used to be ?

Go https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer

Look at pinned posts.

Look at vids.

What I'm mad about is not that mesmer isn't "viable". It's that they take away 75% of mesmer gameplay to give it to others classes.

There were plenty of hypocritical things who were taking out of mesmer and fine on other classes.

 

Just what problems did you have with people like me who suffer this deterioration for years huh ?

Stop being snobbish and pedantic while juste seeing what you want to see. You enjoy the game, fine, good for you.

Mesmer in reality for me is far less enjoyable because it has far less specificity and gameplay options than before. And it's worst when I look at actions/outputs ratio, classes regarding.

Doesn't this reply prove my 'pessimism' point. I know about how strong Mesmer used to be and how it dominated the game.
Its unhealthy to constantly hold on to the idea the class should go back to that time.

The new players who use Mesmer ultimately don't care, right now it does see play in almost any gamemode and that will continue regardless of how OP it was in the past.

[Mell.4873]

On 11/22/2022 at 2:44 PM, Leonidrex.5649 said:

in the past 3 years I havent seen a single chrono in fractals ( other then me )
I saw I think 3 mirages and like 4 virtuosos.
In pvp mesmer still remains the worst in the game, holding hands with warrior at the bottom.
Mesmer is good in raids, thats all there is to it.
Its bad in fractals, bad in pvp, bad in wvw. It is what it is.

EDIT
also devs actively try to make the class as unfun as they can, maliciously making the class as unenjoyable as possible. its crazy to me that they can actively remove QOL and make the class clunkier and people have their tongues so far up their kitten nobody even says anything anymore.

Fractals
Well tick another person who uses Chronomancer in Fractals (me).
Virtuoso is definitely the most common class for fractals I agree.

The real problem with Fractals is that you are limited to number of classes you can bring so the performance or liability each person has is high. This is why when you do Fractal CM you always interrogate peoples builds and never trust anyone who plays Mesmer due to how difficult it is to play this class.
The one exception is Virtuoso (only at the surface level)

 

WvW/PvP
Claiming the class is bad in WvW is purely false. Mesmer has both some of the best dueling/roaming builds while having Chronomancer one of the best WvW Zerg Elites.
For Dueling Mesmer needs an escort to soak up damage, in sPvP that normally means Duo que with a tanky class like Guardian or Warrior. The reason Mesmer perception is so bad is because people get caught out. I have seen Mesmer in Gold 3 and Duo que is how they achieve it.
For WvW Chronomancer has some of the best WvW Zerg utilities in the game, it isn't about how powerful they are, it is the skill coverage and the ability for Chronomancer to reset them very quickly. The amazing thing is they are mostly Core Utilities so that means you can easily play Mirage (maybe not Virtuoso for a big Zerg).

Edited November 23, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Ellon.4316 said:

Agree with the overall sentiment here that mesmer is not fine. Sure virtuoso hits nice DPS, we have alac and quickness options etc.. The possibility is there but the focus from anet in the latest balance patches feels like some power co-efficients gets changed and that's it.

 

I agree and I do want to see changes to Mesmer overtime but I'm not the type of Mesmer who lives in the past and reminisce about what the class was....

1 hour ago, Ellon.4316 said:

1. An entire traitline dependent on the regen boon WITHOUT a single utility or weapon skill that consistently gives this boon. This won't show up in DPS benchmarks.
2. Only one blast finisher (second to last place spec has 4) on a 3 second cooldown. Those ethereal fields aren't going to combo with themselves. Having a entire heart in Seitung Provence dedicated to teaching combo's and not being able to actually use some combo's feels bad.
3. Scepter that barely hits 50% of what staff hits. How am i  going to explain a beginner that a condi weapon with condi gear and condi traits is the wrong choice?
4. Crit chance trait on chrono being dependent on slow but zero runes/sigils that help, compare that to rune of the firebrand that gives exactly whats needed.
5. Even with equipment changes this would still be the wrong choice because "improved alacrity" is just plain better. I want options in my build, not wrong choices.

1. This is a common complaint, all the Mesmer traitlines make little to no sense. The reality is that is kind of the point, Mesmer is heavily reliant on other players to fill its gaps. This is why i always say focus on the Elite Specialization you choose then pick the traitlines after that.
2. Yeah that is kind of funny but this is a unique Combo Field exclusive to Mesmer so it is fair that we only have one.
3. Scepter does need some changes, I'm hoping what ever they decide to do with it coincides with a new elite spec. A bit like how Virtuoso made the Focus much more of a relevant weapon.
4. This is a problem with Chronomancer but you have many ways of getting Slow when you need it most. The strongest Combos rely on reset cooldowns so by first using the Shatter Time Sink or Well of Action you can get enough slow to get your 100% critical chance. An alterative option is your use Shatter Storm and Master of Fragmentation from the Illusion traitline, this will increase the critical chance of F1 shatters and make up for the shortfall when you don't have Slow.
5. I agree and is what I use most of the time. I play Assassins and Boon Duration Sigils/Runes (Lyssa).

 

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Mungo Zen.9364]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

The real problem with Fractals and this type of content in general is you are limited to number of classes you can bring so the performance or liability each person has is high. This is why when you do Fractal CM you always interrogate peoples builds and never trust anyone who plays Mesmer due to how difficult it is to play this class.

It would be nice if this wasn’t a thing wouldn’t it?  Players don’t question some professions or eSpecs yet Mesmer still gets questioned in several game modes. 

What do you think needs to happen for Mesmer to be perceived as being a reliable profession in the eyes of Mesmer players and other players?

Edited November 22, 2022 by Mungo Zen.9364

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

It would be nice if this wasn’t a thing wouldn’t it?  Players don’t question some professions or eSpecs yet Mesmer still gets questioned in several game modes. 

What do you think needs to happen for Mesmer to be perceived as being a reliable profession in the eyes of Mesmer players and other players?

maybe not having several traits removed or killswitched the moment bunch of silvers start complaining about them
or maybe thats already too high of a bar? 
Truth is mesmer is mechanically difficult to counterplay, nobody in pvp has ever had to learn how to fight mesmer, because the class was dog kitten. The moment you make it alright people will flip their kitten as their response to fighting mesmer is do random kitten and it works 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Leonidrex.5649

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

It would be nice if this wasn’t a thing wouldn’t it?  Players don’t question some professions or eSpecs yet Mesmer still gets questioned in several game modes. 

What do you think needs to happen for Mesmer to be perceived as being a reliable profession in the eyes of Mesmer players and other players?

10 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

maybe not having several traits removed or killswitched the moment bunch of silvers start complaining about them
or maybe thats already too high of a bar? 
Truth is mesmer is mechanically difficult to counterplay, nobody in pvp has ever had to learn how to fight mesmer, because the class was dog kitten. The moment you make it alright people will flip their kitten as their response to fighting mesmer is do random kitten and it works 

Yeah sadly its such hard class to understand and make good counters for. You essentially need to have played to truly know what's up.

For example when I play Fractals I can tell if another Mesmer has a garbage build (which some do). On some occasions I will find a Mesmer who is providing X boon but they have no other supportive skills and wonder why everyone is dying, 2 DPS Supports never goes well.

PvP is a little bit easier to figure out once your not a Silver player, Generally you have expend the Mesmer resources basically exactly like how you counter Elementalist or even Necromancer. You want a moderate damage stalling rotation before you dive in with your burst. For me who mains Ranger in PvP i just Shortbow 1 the whole time.

[Justine.6351]

2 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

It would be nice if this wasn’t a thing wouldn’t it?  Players don’t question some professions or eSpecs yet Mesmer still gets questioned in several game modes. 

What do you think needs to happen for Mesmer to be perceived as being a reliable profession in the eyes of Mesmer players and other players?

If the greatsword used more laserbeams it would help tremendously imo and one of the reasons why mirage was so strong until it lost one of its dodges. Also increase the range of illusionary wave and the pushback to 600. Maybe reduce its damage a bit to compensate.