The Next Balthazar

[cosmic arrow.2605]

15 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

But would the remaining Five have allowed it?

Interesting question! Is there any evidence they would be against it? There were some non-human worshippers in GW1, but that doesn’t mean they would allow a non-human to join their ranks. That was also when the gods were presented as general deities of Tyria before retroactively becoming “human gods” in GW2 though.

A rift in the pantheon over a non-human joining their ranks could be an interesting plot line.

Edited December 5, 2022 by cosmic arrow.2605

[Zola.6197]

40 minutes ago, cosmic arrow.2605 said:

There were some non-human worshippers in GW1

Zinnia’s dialogue makes me wonder if she worships Lyssa despite being sylvari, so maybe they’ll reintroduce this idea in GW2.

 

Hard to imagine there aren’t any people who have adopted the religious/philosophical practices of other races/cultures, so I imagine they’re out there and just haven’t popped up in our adventures.

 

For Zinnia, I could imagine a disillusioned sylvari looking to a higher power after discovering they’re from a race of dragon minions. After all, this was kept secret from them and there is tangible evidence of the gods existence and power, so it feels entirely plausible some non-humans might “convert” even if it’s uncommon.

 

Then again the norn adopted the six into their own spiritual traditions. They regard the six as “spirits of action” - wonder if there any shamans of action?

Edited December 5, 2022 by Zola.6197

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

23 hours ago, cosmic arrow.2605 said:

It is interesting to wonder whether or not non-humans are capable of becoming gods. Is it a trait unique to humans because of the "alien" world they all came from? Or are native Tyrians also able to become vessels for divine magic?

Well, Melandru, Dwayna, Abaddon, and Grenth are all depicted with wings.

Humans cannot become gods without a specific blessing based on Kormir.

So in theory, non-humans who receive this blessing can become gods.

22 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

more importantly:

Why would a non-human even want to become part of a pantheon that is worshipped primarily by humans and races that once were humans (like Druids and Margonites)?

And also worshiped by Forgotten, naga, dwarves (and even more dwarves), and (some) centaurs too! And if Elonian legends are truly, formerly worshiped by harpies!

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

  

7 hours ago, TheLadyOfTheRings.9148 said:

I wonder if Tyria needs a deity of war when it's fighting for peace. Would like to know others' thoughts on this 🙂 

In GW1, "fighting for peace" is exactly one of the things that Balthazar and his teachings represented. Unlike GW2's bastardization of him, he wasn't an Ares figure who was about starting wars. But rather someone to pray to when forced into wars. His modum operandi shared by the Zaishen was to be a shield to protect civilians, and a sword to cut down evil and demonic forces that would end peace. Outside of active warfare, that is during peaceful times, Balthazar was a god who oversaw honorable combat and competition for sport - i.e., non-lethal fighting.

6 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

That aside, the Human gods are not Tyrian gods. They are just that: Human gods. Humans are technically not Tyrian. Saying they are Tyrian gods would be equivalent to saying that all of Lovecraft's creatures originated from a non-fictional Earth.

They're more than just human gods though, as many Tyrians had adopted them as pointed above with GW1 links. It's really only GW2 who branded them as "the human gods" - mostly because the two biggest races to worship the Six besides humans, the dwarves and Forgotten, have become near extinct.

Who knows, now that Primordus is dead and stone dwarves need a new calling, we'll find some stone dwarves worshiping Dwayna and Grenth being active again.

[TheLadyOfTheRings.9148]

On 12/5/2022 at 12:35 PM, Fueki.4753 said:

Balthazar wasn't only a god of War and Fire.

He was also the patron deity of Protection and Smiting (the two Monk Prayer attributes that Guardian is largely based upon). Though questionable, he could also be considered the God of fair fight, as the Zaishen, his worshippers, dealt with most of the non-Factions PvP stuff in GW1.

GW2's insulting reduction of Balthazar into a raging, flaming cartoon-esque villain with no real point is NOT what he truly stood for.

That aside, the Human gods are not Tyrian gods. They are just that: Human gods. Humans are technically not Tyrian. Saying they are Tyrian gods would be equivalent to saying that all of Lovecraft's creatures originated from a non-fictional Earth.

Oh I didn't know, thanks for clarifying! 

[KnightofPhoenix.3679]

There aren't that many options as far as military/martial pedigree is concerned:

- You have Logan who is Kryta's most experienced commander

- Zaem, the Sunspear Marshall and Hero of Istan though by definition he is a disciple of Kormir so that wouldn't necessarily work

[The Greyhawk.9107]

On 12/14/2022 at 3:23 AM, KnightofPhoenix.3679 said:

There aren't that many options as far as military/martial pedigree is concerned:

- You have Logan who is Kryta's most experienced commander

- Zaem, the Sunspear Marshall and Hero of Istan though by definition he is a disciple of Kormir so that wouldn't necessarily work

Its our understanding that Balthazar had been overthrown by the other gods by the time the first EDs started awakening, as such the replacement would have happened well before either of your choices were even born.

Edited December 15, 2022 by The Greyhawk.9107

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

On 12/6/2022 at 7:44 AM, TheLadyOfTheRings.9148 said:

Oh I didn't know, thanks for clarifying! 

He also heavily emphasized courage, and honor and glory with respect to battle.

[Yasai.3549]

Lord Faren is a special sort of guy. The guy wants glory and yearns glory and is even willing to work for glory, but deep down inside he knows his limits. He goofs alot and laughs off his failures but he knows he goofed and he wants to improve. 
 

When it comes down to it, Faren is willing to kick into action immediately, even if his skills don't really come up to par. There has been countless times during the Personal Story and Expansion story where he volunteers and actually boots down and does the work. 

Compare him and THAT OTHER HUMAN WHOSE NAME SHALL NOT BE MENTIONED AND STARTS WITH A K, if he were to ascend to godhood in our place, I'll be genuinely happy for him. If anyone is deserving of another situation where they absorb magic and ascend to become a god, Faren deserves it the most.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Yasai.3549

[Jimbru.6014]

My main (human ranger) walks around in fiery gear with War God's weapons, fiery mounts, Balthazar pup mini pet and so on. My lore on him is that when he killed Balthazar, he got a tiny splash of Balthazar's power that lets him conjure those things. It's very cool and all, but he just wishes it didn't come with Balthy's voice in his head from time to time. Of course, I highly doubt ANet would want to turn my character into the next Balthazar, but I like how the story works for my character anyway.

[cyberzombie.7348]

By the nine, no. I like Faren as he is, the biggest chad among the nobility.

[goodberry.8913]

Might make sense for it to be Menzies. Since Balthazar ended up being a megalomaniac that wanted revenge above all else, it might make sense to recontextualize Menzies as "not as bad as we thought." Maybe all the stories about him were just really bad press from Balthazar's propaganda machine?

Then again, it would be cool for him to have a "gray" vibe similar to Jormag. He became a new god out of need for a quick replacement, so the other gods reluctantly chose him with no better immediate options. He is being kept in line by them, but he's still pretty shady. Might make a good "frenemy."

Edited February 5, 2023 by goodberry.8913

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

3 hours ago, goodberry.8913 said:

Might make sense for it to be Menzies. Since Balthazar ended up being a megalomaniac that wanted revenge above all else, it might make sense to recontextualize Menzies as "not as bad as we thought." Maybe all the stories about him were just really bad press from Balthazar's propaganda machine?

Then again, it would be cool for him to have a "gray" vibe similar to Jormag. He became a new god out of need for a quick replacement, so the other gods reluctantly chose him with no better immediate options. He is being kept in line by them, but he's still pretty shady. Might make a good "frenemy."

Menzies actively worked with Dhuun and Abbadon back in GW1. There's no ambiguity on if he was evil or not.

[Jimbru.6014]

On 12/5/2022 at 7:35 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

GW2's insulting reduction of Balthazar into a raging, flaming cartoon-esque villain with no real point is NOT what he truly stood for.

That aside, the Human gods are not Tyrian gods. They are just that: Human gods. Humans are technically not Tyrian. Saying they are Tyrian gods would be equivalent to saying that all of Lovecraft's creatures originated from a non-fictional Earth.

1. Well, that's kinda the point. Balthazar was corrupted somehow and/or went mad  and ended up betraying the honor, protection et al that he used to stand for. In that respect, he ended up falling to the same misunderstood perspective as the Charr, the Klingons, and countless other "warrior" societies and war gods, both real and fictional: it is not the fight in itself, but what you are fighting for, that really matters.

2. Your technical distinction is correct. Grenth and Kormir were born in Tyria and their cults originated in Tyria, so they are definitely "Tyrian gods", but the others  are "human gods" that came from Somewhere Else. Whether or not that distinction really matters could be its own debate, and would involve way too much speculation for this time of morning since I'm already late for work...

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

1. Well, that's kinda the point. Balthazar was corrupted somehow and/or went mad  and ended up betraying the honor, protection et al that he used to stand for. In that respect, he ended up falling to the same misunderstood perspective as the Charr, the Klingons, and countless other "warrior" societies and war gods, both real and fictional: it is not the fight in itself, but what you are fighting for, that really matters.

No, this is just failed understanding of a character, which resulted in terrible story writing.

All they took was the superficial title of "God of War and Fire" and rolled with superficial ideas about going to war and burning things. in GW2, he completely lacks any depth beyond that.

2 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

2. Your technical distinction is correct. Grenth and Kormir were born in Tyria and their cults originated in Tyria, so they are definitely "Tyrian gods", but the others  are "human gods" that came from Somewhere Else. Whether or not that distinction really matters could be its own debate, and would involve way too much speculation for this time of morning since I'm already late for work...

Even if they are born in Tyria, they are still part of an invasive species.

For example, you wouldn't consider kangaroos that are born in Europe to be European animals, would you?

Edited February 6, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 2/6/2023 at 6:29 AM, Jimbru.6014 said:

1. Well, that's kinda the point. Balthazar was corrupted somehow and/or went mad  and ended up betraying the honor, protection et al that he used to stand for. In that respect, he ended up falling to the same misunderstood perspective as the Charr, the Klingons, and countless other "warrior" societies and war gods, both real and fictional: it is not the fight in itself, but what you are fighting for, that really matters.

2. Your technical distinction is correct. Grenth and Kormir were born in Tyria and their cults originated in Tyria, so they are definitely "Tyrian gods", but the others  are "human gods" that came from Somewhere Else. Whether or not that distinction really matters could be its own debate, and would involve way too much speculation for this time of morning since I'm already late for work...

But that's not how the game, or devs, present it at all.

There is no indication that he was corrupted or went mad. Devs outright stated the reason he wanted to fight the Elder Dragons was because he was bored and was without a "real fight" since Abaddon; meanwhile in-game it's portrayed that he was just being a spoiled manchild who threatened the other gods the moment he didn't get what he wanted.  He "abandoned honor, etc." only after he was stripped of his divinity, having felt betrayed by the other gods (despite it being all his fault).

Unless there's more to the story that's actually depicted or stated, which we currently have no real implication of beyond "something might be up with Lyssa", Balthazar was the instigator and had no dramatic change to his persona (from an in-universe perspective) and his old (GW1) depictions, the stories of him and teachings by him, were all just kitten along the way.

The annoyance is that PoF's depiction of Balthazar fits the depiction of Menzies to a t. The idea of Ares, which so many people think of when they go God of War (if they don't think Kratos) - the idea of a god of bloodshed and murder who loves war for the sake of war. The kind of god who'd lie and cheat his way around a battlefield just to be on a battlefield.
But GW1 depicted Balthazar more as Athena with some anger issues.... Which really is just Athena, really.

On 2/5/2023 at 5:51 PM, goodberry.8913 said:

Might make sense for it to be Menzies. Since Balthazar ended up being a megalomaniac that wanted revenge above all else, it might make sense to recontextualize Menzies as "not as bad as we thought." Maybe all the stories about him were just really bad press from Balthazar's propaganda machine?

Then again, it would be cool for him to have a "gray" vibe similar to Jormag. He became a new god out of need for a quick replacement, so the other gods reluctantly chose him with no better immediate options. He is being kept in line by them, but he's still pretty shady. Might make a good "frenemy."

This wouldn't really make sense, because Menzies' actions align perfectly with that hypothetical propaganda machine:

• Allied with the torture-happy soul-consuming former god of Death, Dhuum.
• Allied with the fallen-from-grace "I will become the One True God" Abaddon, who even turned some of Balthazar's minions for Menzies.
• Allied with mortal-hating demons, and even commands some, including The Darkness.
• Created the Shadow Army, which are cursed to eternally fight Balthazar and those blessed by him.

Doesn't quite paint a good picture for Menzies being a secret good guy, allying with Chaotic Evil, Neutral Evil, and Lawful Evil villains left and right, and doing some Neutral Evil actions himself.

[Delta.1526]

31 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

There is no indication that he was corrupted or went mad. Devs outright stated the reason he wanted to fight the Elder Dragons was because he was bored and was without a "real fight" since Abaddon; meanwhile in-game it's portrayed that he was just being a spoiled manchild who threatened the other gods the moment he didn't get what he wanted.  He "abandoned honor, etc." only after he was stripped of his divinity, having felt betrayed by the other gods (despite it being all his fault).

This has always fascinated me tbh -- it seems like most former gods only go full terrible after they've been deposed because their domain-related goal sucks and the other gods did the total opposite of it. Dhuum was cruel and unjust because uh...he'd prefer the dead stay dead, so Grenth usurped him and legalized rez shrines. Abaddon wanted to give humanity the knowledge of magic in its entirety, it was a bad idea, the other gods took it back and he got pissed (then, y'know, all knowledge about him was forbidden). Balthazar wanted to fight the Elder Dragons head on, everyone else wanted to run away into the Mists.

Idk what that means, it's just a cute commonality between them.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Delta.1526

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

36 minutes ago, Delta.1526 said:

This has always fascinated me tbh -- it seems like most former gods only go full terrible after they've been deposed because their domain-related goal sucks and the other gods did the total opposite of it. Dhuum was cruel and unjust because uh...he'd prefer the dead stay dead, so Grenth usurped him and legalized rez shrines. Abaddon wanted to give humanity the knowledge of magic in its entirety, it was a bad idea, the other gods took it back and he got pissed (then, y'know, all knowledge about him was forbidden). Balthazar wanted to fight the Elder Dragons head on, everyone else wanted to run away into the Mists.

Idk what that means, it's just a cute commonality between them.

I kind of feel that's oversimplifying Abaddon a bit though. Head on with the lack of details about why Grenth wanted to usurp Grenth and the simplisity of Balthazar being bastardized though.

It might be a flawed analogy, but I liken Abaddon's fall from grace to World War I. WWI began with Austria-Hungary and Serbia hating each other, and escalated into, well, WWI with Germany (Abaddon) being the one to suffer the most at the Treaty of Versailles resulting in, eventually, WWII (Nightfall).

In this analogy, the Margonites and Forgotten would be Austria-Hungary and Serbia, as the order of events as we know it are basically:

1. The Six Gods want to spread magic and task Abaddon with it. He siphons magic from the Bloodstone and gives unique magic to each race/nation (possibly expecting co-operation between them).
2. Instead the races and nations wage war on each other out of greed of wanting more magic. This escalates to the point King Doric pleads the gods to rescind magic. Abaddon disagreed, but the other gods did so anyways.
3. Abaddon went to pout a bit, but nothing extra.
4. Margonites got pissed that their patron god wasn't listened to, and defaced the Fives' statues at Temple of the Six Gods.
5. The Forgotten got pissed at the Margonites for defiling their temple, waged war and slaughtered the Margonites.
6. Surviving Margonites pleaded to Abaddon for assistance, and after some silence he wiped out the Forgotten Armada and began to convert the remaining Margonites into demonic entities.
7. Unclear exact order of these two events, but implied to be:
   1. Abaddon laid siege to the Gates of Heaven in a bid to dethrone the Five Gods.
   2. The Five Gods said "no" to Abaddon and waged war back on him.
8. Abaddon was defeated at the now Mouth of Torment and imprisoned in the heart of his own realm. Then they sunk his temples and rewrote the history books.

So it's quite a bit more than just "Abaddon wanted to spread knowledge, the other gods said less knowledge", but the parallels are still noticeable, curiously.

[Jimbru.6014]

On 2/6/2023 at 8:39 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

Even if they are born in Tyria, they are still part of an invasive species.

For example, you wouldn't consider kangaroos that are born in Europe to be European animals, would you?

After a certain point, for which you'll have to talk to a biologist about the exact distinctions, invasive species become naturalized in their new environment and part of the local ecology. They may not be native in terms of where their species originally evolved, but they go native, just like real humans do when they move to a new state or country and abandon their old culture for the culture of their new home.

To use my own example, I was born in state X, but my family moved to state Y when I was only three, so I have no memory of X. To me, X is just a place on my birth certificate. I grew up in Y, so the culture of Y is my original "native" culture. I joined the Navy after school, left Y and was stationed in state Z, and stayed here after I retired from the Navy. I have now lived nearly two thirds of my life in Z, far longer than in Y, and I have largely adopted the culture of Z and only visit Y when I must. X is where I was born, Y is where I grew up, but Z is home.

Back to Tyria. The first humans who were originally brought to Tyria by their gods weren't Tyrian. They were the invaders from state X, to parallel my own example. But Lyssa made humans forget where they came from, so they lost their cultural connection to X. They started spreading out and having kids and building new cultures in Tyria; they had moved to stateY. Now in the Guild Wars present, however many centuries anda generations after all that, the human cultures  in Tyria are in state Z. They are wholly native to Tyria, and have been since centuries before GW1. Every human alive in Tyria was born in Tyria, and the fact that "Humans aren't from Tyria!" is an almost forgotten footnote in the decaying scriptures of the departed gods. In terms of their birthplace, their cultures, and where they call home, Tyrian humans are native to Tyria. Even if their distant ancestors originally weren't.

From a real historic standpoint, European people colonized North America starting in the later 16th century. The Spanish founded St. Augustine in 1565, the English founded Jamestown in 1604, and Plymouth Rock was in 1620. I don't know as much about the Spanish colonization as I should. But I can definitely say that in the English colonies, a separate "American" or "Colonial" identity began developing almost immediately as new generations were born, lived and died in North America without ever seeing England, and that new identity was firmly established well before the end of the 17th century. Now in the USA today, if you tried telling an Average American that they're not really American because of their ancestors hundreds of years ago, they'd rightly laugh in your face, and since Tyrian cultures evolved in largely the same manner, I'd wager that Tyrian humans would do the same.

Bottom line: we really need to stop with the whole "Humans aren't native to Tyria" thing. It's irrelevant in the Guild Wars present and arguably hasn't been relevant ever since Lyssa made humans forget their origins. Tyria is all that humans know. Therefore, even if they're not native, they might as well be. /rant

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Jimbru.6014

[The Greyhawk.9107]

On 2/8/2023 at 10:18 PM, Jimbru.6014 said:

After a certain point, for which you'll have to talk to a biologist about the exact distinctions, invasive species become naturalized in their new environment and part of the local ecology. They may not be native in terms of where their species originally evolved, but they go native, just like real humans do when they move to a new state or country and abandon their old culture for the culture of their new home.

To use my own example, I was born in state X, but my family moved to state Y when I was only three, so I have no memory of X. To me, X is just a place on my birth certificate. I grew up in Y, so the culture of Y is my original "native" culture. I joined the Navy after school, left Y and was stationed in state Z, and stayed here after I retired from the Navy. I have now lived nearly two thirds of my life in Z, far longer than in Y, and I have largely adopted the culture of Z and only visit Y when I must. X is where I was born, Y is where I grew up, but Z is home.

Back to Tyria. The first humans who were originally brought to Tyria by their gods weren't Tyrian. They were the invaders from state X, to parallel my own example. But Lyssa made humans forget where they came from, so they lost their cultural connection to X. They started spreading out and having kids and building new cultures in Tyria; they had moved to stateY. Now in the Guild Wars present, however many centuries anda generations after all that, the human cultures  in Tyria are in state Z. They are wholly native to Tyria, and have been since centuries before GW1. Every human alive in Tyria was born in Tyria, and the fact that "Humans aren't from Tyria!" is an almost forgotten footnote in the decaying scriptures of the departed gods. In terms of their birthplace, their cultures, and where they call home, Tyrian humans are native to Tyria. Even if their distant ancestors originally weren't.

From a real historic standpoint, European people colonized North America starting in the later 16th century. The Spanish founded St. Augustine in 1565, the English founded Jamestown in 1604, and Plymouth Rock was in 1620. I don't know as much about the Spanish colonization as I should. But I can definitely say that in the English colonies, a separate "American" or "Colonial" identity began developing almost immediately as new generations were born, lived and died in North America without ever seeing England, and that new identity was firmly established well before the end of the 17th century. Now in the USA today, if you tried telling an Average American that they're not really American because of their ancestors hundreds of years ago, they'd rightly laugh in your face, and since Tyrian cultures evolved in largely the same manner, I'd wager that Tyrian humans would do the same.

Bottom line: we really need to stop with the whole "Humans aren't native to Tyria" thing. It's irrelevant in the Guild Wars present and arguably hasn't been relevant ever since Lyssa made humans forget their origins. Tyria is all that humans know. Therefore, even if they're not native, they might as well be. /rant

 

I think I'm going to link this every time I see someone bring up the "Humans aren't native to Tyria" bit. As you say, after a few thousand years that stops being a thing.

Edited February 10, 2023 by The Greyhawk.9107

[TeeracK.3601]

I think it could be interesting if the Eternal Forgemaster took over the spot of Bal, so when humanity learns that a centaur of all races is now part of the six and the war aspect no less. It be a major shock since humanity were slowly losing a war to the centaur for decades and then were ironically saved by Jormag of all things.

 

Edit: Noticed a confused reaction. For people who never did Fissure of Woe in  gw1 the Eternal Forgemaster was one of the only named NPCs in the fissure of woe that wasn't a bad guy and was the person who you got the best FoW armor from. We don't know what all went down when Bal was chained up, so this would be in a situation where the gods empowered someone right after chaining Bal and leaving the planet since when we met Bal he had lost most of his power prior to eating a bloodstone.

Edited February 26, 2023 by TeeracK.3601