The Confused Button

[Rovaeden.8546]

14 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

If the confused-reaction was removed, people would post more hurtful comments again, which would then gain the Thankyou/Thumbs UP reactions. This is how it worked with the old system that only had positive reactions. The confused-reaction simplifies conflicts and and allows people to express their discontent without directly interacting with the discussion and so causing further drama.

That is very interesting. I did not know that, so thank you.
I would have to agree then, that the confused button is better than a flame-engulfed forum.

My thread is not about having the confused button removed, but to try to understand its use.
This was a very enlightening reply. Again, thank you.

[Freya.9075]

1 hour ago, Rovaeden.8546 said:

The Confused Button seems to be the "dislike" button here, but in reality it reads like "thinking is hard, so I press"

 

Am I missing anything?

Why do you guys use that button as opposed to another?

Usually it's used to show that they disagree. If someone already pointed out what they dislike and they agree, it's easier to just click confused button to show they dislike or disagree to whatever said and just like the comment they agreed to. It would get really repetitive if everyone had to elaborate everything they agree or disagree on. Sometimes elaborating is not needed. And sometimes a simple no or yes is also enough. 

It is also used to troll, and it should not be taken too serious. 

[TOAD.4718]

8 minutes ago, Rovaeden.8546 said:

That is very interesting. I did not know that, so thank you.
I would have to agree then, that the confused button is better than a flame-engulfed forum.

My thread is not about having the confused button removed, but to try to understand its use.
This was a very enlightening reply. Again, thank you.

I dunno. Would it not be better to let them be 100% real, flame people and then get banned thus eliminating the toxicity completely?

 

I mean. Allowing people to abuse something is still catering to bad behavior. It’s not like we don’t know that a lot of users use it simply to troll. I mean the whole fact you made this topic kind of proved that.

Edited November 27, 2022 by TOAD.4718

[Rovaeden.8546]

17 minutes ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

Holding people to a higher standard and/or helping them attain it would be great. But that is just never going to happen on an online forum. If only for the simple "Who are you to tell me [blank]?", which in itself is a valid question, people not caring enough to elaborate, trolls (as old as humanity itself and will never go away) and a myriad of other reasons. Trying to create and maintain such an online platform requires an inordinate amount of moderating. It's also very difficult to try and get people to do something through reasoning when they are complete strangers to you. You don't know their level of (emotional) intelligence, background, personal experiences that might influence behavior, etc. Changing or bettering behavior is usually not achieved through online communication with strangers.

This is absolutely a larger issue than can be addressed in a video game forum. I was never suggesting we fix the world here.

 

Quote

people still don't owe anyone explanations for their opinions, and a lack of elaboration on said opinion does not make that opinion any less valid.

I disagree with this.
An opinion without elaboration is exactly the definition of invalid.

 

If you can't explain why you don't like something or don't know why you don't like something, then you need to do some thinking on the matter before bothering someone with your pointless "No".
Furthermore, if the subject is not even worth your own time to understand your own thoughts or feelings on the matter, in order to come up with a valid elaboration about why you dislike something, then your opinion is doubly invalid. If it's not worth your own time, it certainly isn't worth the time of everybody else.

 

 

[TOAD.4718]

1 minute ago, Rovaeden.8546 said:

This is absolutely a larger issue than can be addressed in a video game forum. I was never suggesting we fix the world here.

 

I disagree with this.
An opinion without elaboration is exactly the definition of invalid.

 

If you can't explain why you don't like something or don't know why you don't like something, then you need to do some thinking on the matter before bothering someone with your pointless "No".
Furthermore, if the subject is not even worth your own time to understand your own thoughts or feelings on the matter, in order to come up with a valid elaboration about why you dislike something, then your opinion is doubly invalid. If it's not worth your own time, it certainly isn't worth the time of everybody else.

 

 

I disagree with that too. People absolutely need to be held accountable for their actions and opinions. Not exactly sure why they wouldn’t be. That’s just basic adulthood.

[Rovaeden.8546]

5 minutes ago, TOAD.4718 said:

I dunno. Would it not be better to let them be 100% real, flame people and then get banned thus eliminating the toxicity completely?

 

I mean. Allowing people to abuse something is still catering to bad behavior. It’s not like we don’t know that a lot of users use it simply to troll. I mean the whole fact you made this topic kind of proved that.

I think another poster pointed it out perfectly.

It's not about us. It's about making Anet's life easier.
They don't really care what we do to each other. They DO care how much work we make for them, cuz that means paying people and less money for the owners and shareholders.
 

[TOAD.4718]

Just now, Rovaeden.8546 said:

I think another poster pointed it out perfectly.

It's not about us. It's about making Anet's life easier.
They don't really care what we do to each other. They DO care how much work we make for them, cuz that means paying people and less money for the owners and shareholders.
 

Yeah I said something to that extent. It’s true. The current way saves them a TON of moderation effort.

[Farohna.6247]

The confused reaction can mean multiple things and is purposefully vague to keep it less toxic.  So it can mean disagree, actually confused and bewildered as to what a post means, or in the case of this thread a humorous response to someone asking about it.  

 

[Rovaeden.8546]

2 minutes ago, TOAD.4718 said:

I disagree with that too. People absolutely need to be held accountable for their actions and opinions. Not exactly sure why they wouldn’t be. That’s just basic adulthood.

I agree with you. My comment was stating that this issue is not going to be solved in a video game forum.

Lets mindgame this.
If we, the users, started trying to hold trolls to a higher standard, we would all be banned from the forums by Anet on the grounds of "Naming and Shaming".
If Anet tried to hold us users to a higher standard on the forums, they would have to pay an awful lot more moderators and there would be so many disagreements about what "higher standard" meant.

I fully agree that the world needs to be held to a higher standard, but a video game forum is not going to make even a drop in the bucket.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

25 minutes ago, Rovaeden.8546 said:

This is absolutely a larger issue than can be addressed in a video game forum. I was never suggesting we fix the world here.

 

I disagree with this.
An opinion without elaboration is exactly the definition of invalid.

 

If you can't explain why you don't like something or don't know why you don't like something, then you need to do some thinking on the matter before bothering someone with your pointless "No".
Furthermore, if the subject is not even worth your own time to understand your own thoughts or feelings on the matter, in order to come up with a valid elaboration about why you dislike something, then your opinion is doubly invalid. If it's not worth your own time, it certainly isn't worth the time of everybody else.

 

 

I'll go into the second half of your post first. You seem to think that a lack of explanation can only mean people don't understand why they feel a certain way and haven't thought about it. But people can feel elaboration or explanation isn't necessary, since a simple "no" sums up their position. Whether you'll accept that or not is a different matter and something the initial naysayer is not responsible for. And even if they don't understand why they feel a certain way, does that automatically invalidate the feeling? Not at all. Thinking about the why will enable them to communicate it, but it doesn't necessarily change the feeling nor invalidate it. And we've all been in positions where we feel a certain way but can't quite put a finger on the why yet. That doesn't mean we automatically assume our own feelings are invalid, so why should we brand other people's feelings invalid in a similar situation?

 

Can this be addressed on a game forum? Yes, it can. Efficiently? I'm not so sure. If we want to raise people to a higher standard, a simple deleting of the post or blocking of the account won't do anything. So that means they'd have to engage in discourse with said person. Even if ANet had the time, personnel and money to do that, it's still not a guarantee it will work. Maybe it will work for this forum, but not beyond. And while we're not out to better the world, we're also not really raising people to a higher standard if they just agree to not do it here anymore. They can agree to adhere to the rules ANet put in place, but that still doesn't mean they're adhering to any kind of higher standard, nor does it mean they can't decide at some point in the future that they don't care, or change their opinion on why they should adhere to the rules.

It's just that all of this requires a lot of work and ANet is not a company running a social media platform, it's a game development studio. It's much easier and cheaper to just delete posts and block users than try to better their forum behavior. To give them an icon they can use to voice disagreement (which technically this forum doesn't have, but people make things their own, hence the confused = dislike phenomenon) is a lot easier. Even having us discuss the meaning and use of said icon instead of just outright implementing a dislike option is easier. They can just let us ramble and at some point decide to close the thread, like they've done before. We have to remember this is not their bread and butter and hence not high on the priority list.

 

Edit: Well, while I was writing this it seems you posted something that actually boils down to the same thing. Too much effort, too open to interpretation.

Edited November 27, 2022 by TheNecrosanct.4028

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

I would love if we could see who made the upvotes/downvotes.

Something about your name been visible to the public , plus ask that person their idea later one  , will be for the best

Edit: Or even show ony the likes , t avoid "clubs" trying to push their idea

Edited November 27, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[TOAD.4718]

4 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

I would love if we could see who made the upvotes/downvotes.

Something about your name been visible to the public , it will deter people

Definitely 

[Randulf.7614]

This is a very deep and meaningful conversation I see, but it’s just people either trolling or using as a dislike. It’s a small and completely ignorable yellow picture which has no relevance to anything. I wouldn’t be worrying about it so much.

Its got precisely zero to do with moderation lite policy. It is a minor feature which came with the forum which has other more important features they wanted to utilise which the old one(s) did not. Personally I’d prefer to see emotes gone, but they’re unobtrusive and ignorable.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

24 minutes ago, Rovaeden.8546 said:

Regardless that I already reached the same conclusion, I liked reading your thoughts, so please do not feel that your effort and eloquence were wasted.
Quite the contrary, I enjoyed reading your well thought out and well presented position. It's kinda refreshing even. You have given me a boost to my, admittedly very low, faith in humanity meter.


As to your points.
In the various physical forums (both literal and figurative) of the larger (real) world, I heartily agree with you. We MUST hold people to a higher standard! Particularly those who run our companies, countries and are leaders in thought and education!
Also, in those arenas it is vital to allow open discourse including the muddy position of "I don't like it but I don't yet know why."

However, here, - in this video game forum, which is highly policed for policy-adjacent violations and posts are locked and deleted willy-nilly by mods because they cannot be bothered to deal with a disagreement in any other way, - I stand by my position that a "No" without a "Why" is invalid as well as with my position that we will not be changing society at large through any discourse within this forum, no matter how well reasoned or eloquent. A parable about pearls and swine comes to mind.

Anyway, I am satisfied with my exploration into this subject.
The Confused Button means "Trolling Lite™" because Anet cannot be bothered to pay for more moderators to adjudicate forum arguments properly.



 

First of all, thanks for the compliment. The feeling is mutual. And second, I am not responsible for the confused reaction to your post! 😜

 

If I understand you correctly, you see a "no" without a "why" on this forum as invalid because of the seemingly arbitrary moderation here, perhaps hoping that elaborating on those positions might show ANet there can be substance in disagreement and it therefore not meritting deletion or locking. Do I interpret that correctly? If so, I can see where you're coming from and I do see the merit in it. Though this changes from us sitting in the chair of holding people to a higher standard to us sitting in the chair of holding ANet to a higher standard. I think both are useless here because ANet isn't going to care any more about it than the anonymous "confused". We won't be changing the world at large but we also won't be changing the way ANet deals with this. The less time and effort put into the forum, the better, so they can focus on the bread and butter of their company. And while it makes sense from a business point of view, beyond that it's rather empty and indifferent. I've never seen more than the minimum effort at moderation and at times it's outright baffling (the willy-nilly deleting and locking of threads/posts).

I'll admit I use the confused icon as a dislike at times as well, without elaborating. I'll use a recent example. Someone posted a thread about completing the plush mount skins set. (sidenote: I did type a response but that's because I had something else to add.) My initial response to the plush mounts is no, simply because I don't like them but I didn't feel mentioning just that, "I don't like them", merited an actual post saying it. There is no alternative solution to the topic of this thread, no constructive criticism, no suggestions of improvement, or anything like that. It is simply a matter of taste. Which I could explain (I'm not into cutesy skins), but really, why? So a simple dislike button (whether that be the "confused" button or something else) can serve a purpose. But as it is with anything, people will take it further and corrupt its original meaning.

Edited November 27, 2022 by TheNecrosanct.4028

[SuavePuppy.2809]

Long story short, it means people don't agree with what you've posted 

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Rovaeden.8546 said:

You take the time to write out a well reasoned position for discussion or more likely for Anet to improve the game

Wait, that's what you think that thread is? You've avoided giving any specifics in there to avoid having an actual discussion and instead reverted to dealing with broad hypotheticals so nobody can help you with your ingame problem, but instead started labeling anyone disagreeing as "trolls". 🤦‍♂️

Reasoned position for discussion, alright 😶

Edited November 27, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

19 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Wait, that's what you think that thread is? You've avoided giving any specifics in there to avoid having an actual discussion and instead reverted to dealing with broad hypotheticals so nobody can help you with your ingame problem, but instead started labeling anyone disagreeing as "trolls". 🤦‍♂️

Reasoned position for discussion, alright 😶

Didn't the same happened when people  mask their need for more instance content and use the phrase  "and hardcore OW" , in order the thead to stay on the general forum ?

But the actual conversation the majority is  instance content ?

Edited November 27, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Artemis.8034]

Im confused! Confused as to why anet felt the need to put up silly emojis, it really dont help with discourse, its a way to disagree and troll, yes I use it too. Im saying that the forums are better off without childish emojis and likes and dislikes, let people discuss things without these buttons that lean heavy into trolling and follow the mob. Open discourse is always better than secret voting.

 

But hey as long as they have it here im going to use it to full potential, like everyone else.

[Artemis.8034]

2 hours ago, Tom.8029 said:

Yeah I don’t understand what the confused button is supposed to mean. People press it as a reaction to a post but it doesn’t really tell me anything. If it was confusing, why is it confusing?

Exactly why these anti social social media emojis need to go. People no longer actually discuss things they just slap likes dislikes on everything. Why? what is that has you confused? Did I type stutter? or something? Never will get why people cant just talk to each other /confused 

[Rovaeden.8546]

11 minutes ago, Artemis.8034 said:

Exactly why these anti social social media emojis need to go. People no longer actually discuss things they just slap likes dislikes on everything. Why? what is that has you confused? Did I type stutter? or something? Never will get why people cant just talk to each other /confused 

"Did I type stutter"  --I lold

I literally said that to myself the first time I wrote a thread and had a confused emoji pop up immediately.

"You are confused? Did I stutter? How on earth are you confused by this, it is really straight forward?!"

Too funny!

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Rather have thumbs down button than a defacto thumbs down button, but hey we are living in a time where the wintersday snowflakes run the world.

[Randulf.7614]

22 minutes ago, Rovaeden.8546 said:

I love this. Awesome!

Yes, you are understanding me correctly. However the arbitrary moderation and the "no" without a "why" are slightly separate issues though definitely connected.

Due to the arbitrary moderation here, it feels to me like voicing your disagreement on these forums has as much chance to get your post deleted and earn you a warning "just cuz"(as happened to me not very long ago) regardless of how well reasoned your argument is, as it does of getting you flamed by the army of white knights and fanboys that blindly worship at Anets altar. Very little constructive value seems to come from disagreement here. However, other MMO forums are not so different, for what its worth. WoW is basically unmoderated with rampant toxicity the norm. A truly vile place.
So, I understand this as a part of the problem.
Perhaps people feel bullied by Anet's mod squad and therefore don't want to get into a discussion only to have their post deleted. Pressing dislike is so much easier in this case, and rightfully so. This is valid and is squarely on Anet to do better. Much, much better.

At the same time, the Confused Button really isn't a dislike button.
I would not be questioning the meaning or validity of an actual dislike button.
However, "Confused" is so unnecessarily vague as to be effectively meaningless. It is literally the least Anet could do to provide an outlet without providing an outlet.
As HnRkLnXqZ.1870 informed me not long ago,

so, we can see that Anet deliberately added the Confused reaction. My assumption is that they chose to do this in order to provide a solution with as little effort as possible.

Given the above, the "No" without a "why" becomes more glaring.
"Confused" does not mean "I disagree".
"Confused" is used in place of "I disagree", but that is not it's literal meaning, only it's adopted meaning, and only for those people who chose to opt-in to accepting that meaning.
I am not one of them, but I now understand what it means thanks to this thread.

Anyway, just clicking Confused in lieu of Disagree is, in my opinion, basically Trolling-lite.
It's akin to the poster typing "git gud" as a response to any given thing. It is trolling and utterly without value and actually should be deleted with a warning.
So, the "No" without a "Why" is just needless obfuscation. It adds noise to the signal for no good reason. If the moderators were really good and consistent in enforcing dissenting discussion to remove the "git guds" I think there would be a lot more room for people to feel it worth their time to actually voice their opinion.

I certainly don't envy the moderators, and I do not lay all of this at their feet.
It appears to me that Anet has a very small team of forum mods who probably don't get paid very well and I imagine struggle to avoid becoming bitter while reading mean people being crappy day in and day out.
In that situation I would probably be a little less judicial in my approach to pruning refuse from the forum.

The responsibility falls squarely on Anet to hire more moderators and probably pay them better.
As we know, that wont happen.

 

 

Anyway, to sum up, I think given the above, the appropriate response to a forum thread or post you don't like, provided you possess the requisite emotional strength, is to just click back and move on. So what you don't like it. Who cares. If you can't be bothered to stand up for a position, just walk away.
I don't like lobster but some love it. Who cares. I just drive past seafood restaurants without a fuss.



 

 

You vastly misunderstand the forums. They do not sit and read posts all day. They act on alerts. That used to be a sep team, but it’s likely just one of the devs who once alerted deal with it or ignore it accordingly. Things get deleted or merged because someone requested it or an official Anet by chance saw it. That has been the case since before this version of the forum.
 

Removing the emotes would not increase or decrease the number of “hurtful” posts whatsoever. Those who wish to argue will and still do so in tandem (probably) with the confused button. All it does is give a little voice to those sitting in the background who wouldn’t post anyway and without it, they still wouldn’t post.

 

[Silent.6137]

I just disabled notification listings for reactions because they really serve very little purpose. And I couldn't care less if someone disagree with my comments unless they actually bother to tell me why.

I used to pay attention to them when I first became active in this forum. But since then, I view them as less than useful  for several reasons, many of which had been mentioned:

• Emoji spammers - They just like to press buttons.
• Those that disagree with your stance and will use that emoji for every single one of your posts regardless of what you say. Really doesn't matter if your comment is entirely neutral in that thread.
• Those that search for threads you commented on just to add those reactions. These people don't even bother to read your comments. Seen it a few times when you suddenly get lots of confused reactions within a minute in a multiple pages thread where it's totally impossible to have read even a small portion of the comments within that time-frame.
• Those that logged on multiple accounts to Like their comments and Confused yours. Thinking it somehow make their arguments more valid. Dead give-away when the only Like reactions are for their posts but not others who stated the same things as them. And you're suddenly inundated with lots of Confused reactions.

So, just disable the notifications in settings and ignore them. Or view them as badges of honor.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Sigmoid.7082]

Said this two mo this ago in the last thread about this and it's still very much true:

Quote

 

There are people who explaining why doesn't advance the conversation. Dropping the emoji allows contributing without often entering into brick wall back and forths. 

 

Imho more often than not, from observation over the years, people tend to be so entrenched in their positions in arguments that they believe their subjective opinions and objective fact. It's less "tell me why you disagree with me so we can have a healthy discussion about a topic" and more "tell me why you disagree with me so I can ignore what you say and tell you why you are wrong". 

 

I genuinely feel most of the time people don't come here to discuss topics but rather to start and then subsequently "win" arguments. 

 

 

Only think I would add on top of this now is the trend of branding anyone who disagrees with you a troll or a white night in order to somehow diminish their disagreement. Sometimes you're wrong, sometimes people simply disagree with you..it's just how it is and its weird people struggle with this.

[DexterousGecko.6328]

after i removed them (and the twitter side bar) with ublock the forums are much better. I would recommend the same to everyone.