Why Mesmer is a joke

[bethekey.8314]

 

I not only don't list every defensive ability, but this also doesn't account for how long they last. Torch stealth lasts for multiple seconds, for example, rendering the use of other blocks/dodges etc pointless.

Regardless of duration, a new defensive every 2.5 seconds.

Tell me again why Mesmer Virtuoso requires skill. I could program a bot to do a set rotation better than this.

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by bethekey.8314

[Arheundel.6451]

That's the problem with mesmers..and its community for the entirety. They tend to cry a lot...really really a lot and if you're new to the game and read the GW2 forum, you'd think that mesmer is the weakest class in the game. But if you sit down and actually force a mesmer player to speak about these "magical hardcounters" that apparently stop mesmer from being the strongest class there is....all they can mention is...Thief lol, and these days only if played perfectly a thief would stand a chance.

Luckily these devs are well aware of mesmer defenses on the contrary of most of the forum , the defense rotation of mesmers is borderline broken, too much uptime on distortion (between chronobunker and virtuoso now) access to block, stealth, teleports/stunbreak on relatively short CD....then reflect on healing....really stupid...but yeah...it's one of those classes that go "unnoticed" by the playerbase and only experienced players know the full truth

[Dr Meta.3158]

Thief and the thief community is about the same though. Thief also is inundated with evasion, stealth and blind spam along with the best mobility in the game but also has a community full of people crying they can't quickly kill people in duels and dart across the map at the same time which mesmer used to do with powershatter builds that ran portal pre distance nerf. So thief being the only counter to mesmer isn't really saying much as not that many buildscan even handle a thief built for conquest nonetheless a thief built for dueling. And that's handle, not actually defeat.

[viquing.8254]

@Arheundel.6451 :

Since mirage evade nerf it practically disapear, it's only recently that we see them come back.

So yeah, it was the weakest class with war during ~3 years.

Magical hardcounter = bettre mobility, better sustain, rollface aoe who instant clones, CC spam and so on from meta classes.

How much did you climb in ladder with mesmer just to have an idea of your knowledge ?

Teleport/stunbreak on low CD compared to meta classes, thanks for the laugh. Current mesmer is one of the last mobile class currently.

Then reflect on healing => Not used since the 2 nerf : trait and skill.

Stealth =>Half current meta classes can do it better.

It's pretty funny because when I look at meta classes, they can do pretty much what you listed, very often better, the damage aoe on top of that with no combo requirements.

Now you nerf the defense, you up the damage.

 

----

 

Back to OP :

Virtuoso wasn't designed to PvP and they overbuff sustain trying make it work.I personally didn't like at all this design but on the counterside, it isn't supposed to kill you. Just play defensivly evade the f2 and you will take the point, never die and win the game.

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by viquing.8254

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

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Tell me again why Mesmer requires skill

Because that build is useless and does nothing except decap itself  with stealth and invuln and isn't good either in ranked or competitive

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it's one of those classes that go "unnoticed" by the playerbase and only experienced players know the full truth

It's the opposite

Edited December 3, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Vancho.8750]

4 hours ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

Lol, dude complaining while playing a Mech.
 

The complaint is somewhat legit, but the showcase is really bad example since engi can circumvent the defenses on Mesmer, a better example would have been power warrior or ranger builds since they would have terrible time landing any hits.

[Myror.7521]

@Vancho.8750 but in what sentence would warrior or ranger be good examples? Both classes are litterly hardcountered by mes (if the mes is just half good). To me yes playing as ranger or warrior against a mes is just annoying af and unable to win those Matchub but also it should be like this since the games Release so it is fine as it is ^^. Letz make it clear. Warrior and Ranger are actually both somewhat countered by conditions. This plus me is pretty kitten good against dodge able skills. This means that both classes are simple less effective since both classes use good dodge able skills. Mes on its own is just countered against aoe spam cause it let his clones die. This means less defence and less dmg. Also thief used to be a mes hard counter since it used to deal high instant dmg. Thief get pretty kitten nerfed when it comes to instant burst skills just because it would be broken in comb with its mobility and stealth. So the only Real counter is just aoe dps.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

It's not mesmer, it's virtuoso. We can thank a certain S***r for the sorry state of that elite spec (bloated defensives, 0 setup, 0 damage, 0 mobility, 0 range, 0 relevance), but thank god he left in the meantime.

[bethekey.8314]

3 hours ago, viquing.8254 said:

Just play defensivly evade the f2 and you will take the point, never die and win the game.

 

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Because that build is useless and does nothing except decap itself  with stealth and invuln and isn't good either in ranked or competitive

The no-damage, decap itself excuse has been used for (eventually nerfed) bunkers over and over again. You're downplaying it.

The build clearly does damage, evading point blank damage from stealth isn't consistently possible for the average player, the average player doesn't know how to rotate or when to leave a 2v1, etc.

[bethekey.8314]

7 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Thief and the thief community is about the same though. Thief also is inundated with evasion, stealth and blind spam along with the best mobility in the game but also has a community full of people crying they can't quickly kill people in duels and dart across the map at the same time which mesmer used to do with powershatter builds that ran portal pre distance nerf. So thief being the only counter to mesmer isn't really saying much as not that many buildscan even handle a thief built for conquest nonetheless a thief built for dueling. And that's handle, not actually defeat.

Yes, there is an important distinction I'm catching on to though. Certain abilities like blind, slows, cripples, and stuns could also be considered defensives, but at least they require you to hit your target. Your target can prevent them from happening.

Stealth, block, invuln, aegis etc. are all un-interactive defensive mechanics that Mesmer (more specifically, Virtuoso) has in spades.

[bethekey.8314]

48 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

It's not mesmer, it's virtuoso. We can thank a certain S***r for the sorry state of that elite spec (bloated defensives, 0 setup, 0 damage, 0 mobility, 0 range, 0 relevance), but thank god he left in the meantime.

Yes, Virtuoso is the main culprit here. But that's only 1 skill tree of 3 in the build. Chronobunker is also a thing. It seems like general Mesmer skill trees and the newly added distortion are contributing factors.

Edited December 3, 2022 by bethekey.8314

[Dr Meta.3158]

17 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Yes, there is an important distinction I'm catching on to though. Certain abilities like blind, slows, cripples, and stuns could also be considered defensives, but at least they require you to hit your target. Your target can prevent them from happening.

Stealth, block, invuln, aegis etc. are all un-interactive defensive mechanics that Mesmer (more specifically, Virtuoso) has in spades.

I agree with that. But consider the meme. Every expansion, mesmer has had an obnoxious unkillable elite spec build. This is just tradition.

 

But seriously yeah there's been a slow trend of tipping the balance against hit reliant defenses by increasing the general amount of stability, aegis, resistance among classes along with improving the ability of a few classes to burst while evading/invulnerable/blocking.

This game always had anticounterplay mechanics which one of the major reasons why this game would never be taken as an esport.

 

But overall, virtuoso won't be good at conquest because it isn't able to meet the requirements: high mobility, scalable defenses, and ability to burst kill/support. Any class that doesn't meet those three requirements regardless of how busted it is in dueling won't be effective in conquest.

[Stalima.5490]

There is another component you forgot to mention and that is that they apply heavy confusion also which is sort of a double edged sword defense, you can attack during it but hurt yourself if you do.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 12/3/2022 at 7:30 PM, bethekey.8314 said:

Yes, Virtuoso is the main culprit here. But that's only 1 skill tree of 3 in the build. Chronobunker is also a thing. It seems like general Mesmer skill trees and the newly added distortion are contributing factors.

It's more than that. Virtuoso has aegis spam thanks to Bladeturn Refrain,1 more invuln (Blade Renewal) and a built-in block in Bladeturn Requiem. On top of that, unlike other mesmer specs, it's never forced into melee as shatters are ranged abilities (other mesmer specs are forced into melee both for the self-shatter and to spawn clones next to your target for immediate shatter, or they get immediately cleaved). Chronobunker is the same old dumb thing, luckily it suffers from getting +1 so there's that.

[Bazsi.2734]

Turns out phasing out the tradeoffs just for the sake of it is bad... who would have thought. Now put 1200 range on swipe I dare you devs 😄

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

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It's not mesmer, it's virtuoso. 

 

On 12/3/2022 at 1:52 PM, Dr Meta.3158 said:

But overall, virtuoso won't be good at conquest because it isn't able to meet the requirements: high mobility, scalable defenses, and ability to burst kill/support. Any class that doesn't meet those three requirements regardless of how busted it is in dueling won't be effective in conquest.

 

yes. Power mes, Power Chrono is fine (tentatively)

I'd antagonize @Terrorhuz.4695 more and say it's -also- condi rabid staff mirage, but you can walk away from that now, so it would be a joke at best. 

 

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not that many builds can even handle a thief built for conquest nonetheless a thief built for dueling. And that's handle, not actually defeat.

No. Thieves built for conquest are Deadeyes now. They're that because people whined DD and specter off the face of the map. Every projectile destruction gimmick that has been getting complained about between then and now works vs them. 

Even putting aside that thieves not played well (As in, thieves that are not at once aware of you, their surroundings, and what they can expect to get hit by) will explode immediately, there's quite a few builds that can handle thief even when played well. Thieves are annoying, but every time they got -too- annoying they got a cd or five swiftly axed, so far. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Myror.7521]

@Bazsi.2734 we could just talk about this when swipe get its unblockable path remove xD! Im also open for more dmg for backstab if that happened xD.

[Dr Meta.3158]

15 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

 

yes. Power mes, Power Chrono is fine (tentatively)

I'd antagonize @Terrorhuz.4695 more and say it's -also- condi rabid staff mirage, but you can walk away from that now, so it would be a joke at best. 

 

No. Thieves built for conquest are Deadeyes now. They're that because people whined DD and specter off the face of the map. Every projectile destruction gimmick that has been getting complained about between then and now works vs them. 

Even putting aside that thieves not played well (As in, thieves that are not at once aware of you, their surroundings, and what they can expect to get hit by) will explode immediately, there's quite a few builds that can handle thief even when played well. Thieves are annoying, but every time they got -too- annoying they got a cd or five swiftly axed, so far. 

Don't antagonize people

Anyone bad at any class is easy to delete.

A class with the ability to engage and disengage at will without consequence along with the ability to avoid other class mechanics by disappearing from sight has to be a nightmare to try to balance; vmbut you reapbehat you sow.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

45 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Don't antagonize people

I

choose violence. @Terrorhuz.4695 Condi Staff mirage is BUSTED. My evidence is warrior trauma. 

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Anyone bad at any class is easy to delete.

That isn't what I said.

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 thieves not played well (As in, thieves that are not at once aware of you, their surroundings, and what they can expect to get hit by) will explode immediately

 

You can play several other classes at -under- a decent level and put up a bit of a fight. Thief you crumple instantly if you don't have a solid idea of what you're doing and what you should expect from what you're fighting.  

Anyone bad at a class is easy to delete, yes, but the threshold for bad on thief is much larger than other classes.

Quote

A class with the ability to engage and disengage at will without consequence along with the ability to avoid other class mechanics by disappearing from sight has to be a nightmare to try to balance; 

It's a nightmare to have to cobble together a build from the ashes of the last time you were deleted from the meta, only to be nuked again with no recompense, too~

Especially if you no longer have a significant meta presence and are just annoying to deal with, and that is now the metric by which people advocate for nerfs. 

Speaking of, this thread is about mes, we can argue about thief later, lest we derail.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Terrorhuz.4695]

24 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I choose violence. @Terrorhuz.4695 Condi Staff mirage is BUSTED. My evidence is warrior trauma. 

It is. Staff is not well designed, and clones should not deal any damage. Did you notice? Every time mesmer is uncounterable, staff is involved.

[Zekent.3652]

Don't forget the blinds, it's also a way of sustain, like Aegis is.

[Hotride.2187]

On 12/3/2022 at 11:10 AM, bethekey.8314 said:

Tell me again why Mesmer requires skill. I could program a bot to do a set rotation better than this.

There are essentially 2 types of notable mesmers I've fought, condi staff (often akin to bots, that level of skill requirement) and power mesmer gods. Its still hard for me to say what exactly the really good power mesmers are doing differently but they just annihilate.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 12/3/2022 at 5:53 PM, Pati.2438 said:

@Vancho.8750 but in what sentence would warrior or ranger be good examples? Both classes are litterly hardcountered by mes (if the mes is just half good). To me yes playing as ranger or warrior against a mes is just annoying af and unable to win those Matchub but also it should be like this since the games Release so it is fine as it is ^^. Letz make it clear. Warrior and Ranger are actually both somewhat countered by conditions. This plus me is pretty kitten good against dodge able skills. This means that both classes are simple less effective since both classes use good dodge able skills. Mes on its own is just countered against aoe spam cause it let his clones die. This means less defence and less dmg. Also thief used to be a mes hard counter since it used to deal high instant dmg. Thief get pretty kitten nerfed when it comes to instant burst skills just because it would be broken in comb with its mobility and stealth. So the only Real counter is just aoe dps.

Mes doesn't counter ranger in general and meta SPB wins into meta Chrono.

Edited December 4, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 12/3/2022 at 7:23 PM, bethekey.8314 said:

 

The no-damage, decap itself excuse

What excuse? Such builds have never been meta (before someone says "old bunker chrono" notice that that was a support build).

Edited December 4, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

It is. Staff is not well designed, and clones should not deal any damage. Did you notice? Every time mesmer is uncounterable, staff is involved.

They stupidly added 3 stacks 5 sec insta confusion to staff 4 because they wanted to buff staff in PvE.