Tired Of Pepega Invuln Design Classes

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

^ thread title

Not even going to elaborate too much here as I'm sure everyone knows what I'm talking about.

Ele & Mes are the biggest culprits. We can INB4 discussion about if it is or isn't OP, which in my opinion both of these classes are overboard lately in terms of off-node combat potential, due to too many invulns or stacked small effects that essentially create invuln. But what I'm mainly talking about is how obnoxious invulnerable designs are. No one likes to play against builds that have infinite cycling damage mitigation tools. It's getting to a point where unless classes are melee based and have access to ublockables, you can't hit these kinds of invulnerable designs. They seriously have enough blocks/invulns/random extra evades on top of dodges, on top of infinite anti-projectile, to completely mitigate damage unless someone brings some particular very specific build that has very specific tools to be able to get around the insane amount of utility it has for not defensive play, but invulnerable play.

Furthermore, tossing too many invulns to a class to make it stronger is lazy balancing. Mesmers are always saying "Our class is useless in conquest". In truth their class is very strong combat wise, but it is bad at holding nodes. This is because their class has been balanced for so long around invlun effects, that to be able to keep up in combat they have to use those invulns, and that makes them lose node cap progress. The more invulns that are tossed at a class to allow it to keep up in combat, the worse that class gets at holding nodes in conquest. Then we get classes/builds like classic Mesmer archetypes that are nigh invulnerable that can't hold nodes. That or archetypes like current Catalyst that is just too kitten strong in general.

Contributing my 2 cents into this forum on the topic, I can say that particularly Ele & Mes needs to lose some of the straight invuln effects and be rebalanced differently.

I'm no Ele or Mes main so you tell me how it should be done.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Sahne.6950]

7 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

^ thread title

Not even going to elaborate too much here as I'm sure everyone knows what I'm talking about.

Ele & Mes are the biggest culprits. We can INB4 discussion about if it is or isn't OP, which in my opinion both of these classes are overboard lately in terms of off-node combat potential. But what I'm mainly talking about is how obnoxious invulnerable designs are. No one likes to play against builds that have infinite cycling damage mitigation tools. It's getting to a point where unless classes are melee based and have access to ublockables, you can't hit these kinds of invulnerable designs. They seriously have enough blocks/invulns/random extra evades on top of dodges, on top of infinite anti-projectile, to completely mitigate damage unless someone brings some particular very specific build that has very specific tools to be able to get around the insanely stupid amount of utility it has for not defensive play, but invulnerable play.

These builds like this are way too easy to wield compared to what a Thief player has to do to mitigate damage as example or even a Spellbreaker, and for some reason they still maintain heavy damage output while having these virtually invulnerable defenses vs. most classes.

The big thing to state is that every class/build should have the opportunity to at least be able to land strikes against these builds. It's a bad game design when something has so much defense available that it forces opponents into selecting only maybe 3 or 4 viable build structures that have the mechanics to even threaten it.

Either nerf this stupid **** or start adding more unblockables to more classes again.

Agreed. Playing and playing against it is just very.... slow.... 

I actually would like the approach, where we get more Unblockable CC skills like Gale for example.

Gale is fantastic to pull a Virtuoso out of his Block-Block-Block madness. Spamming blocks should have more risk and counterplay.

Blocks looses alot of value if every class had 1 unblockable CC for example.   And i think alot of invulns should be a "Fullcleanse and block" instead of being literally untargetable. would have the same defense capability, but could be countereplayed by the unblockable CC.

Right now Invulns are just very uninteractive making the whole design kind of boring.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

In other words:

1. In say War vs. Thief, or Ranger vs. Holo, or Ranger vs. War, when someone is dodging everything you do and you are losing, there is a very distinct feeling of "being outplayed" because these classes require actual effort in paying attention to timing & accuracy, and actually well utilizing defensive CDs in balance with offensive plays.
2. But when a class/build goes against a Catalyst as example, and that class/build does not have access at all to certain mechanics it needs to even begin to deal with the Catalyst, this is not a feeling of being outplayed, and it doesn't even feel like "being countered" anymore, but more like "this game is designed poorly. my class/build is incapable of dealing with this outside of just running away".

This is like, a bad design route that the game's balance/dynamic is headed down and it's due to oversaturating the game with invulnerable designs. It has to stop. It's funking up the balance something bad man, and the good feel this game once had in general.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

3 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Right now Invulns are just very uninteractive making the whole design kind of boring.

Exactly what I'm talking about.

It's less interactive less mentally stimulating to play as, and removes any counter play when you're playing against it.

[Morwath.9817]

Unblockable is lazy design as are long i-frames.

Edit:

In case someone wouldn't understand. Adding unblockable on class X abilities just to counter build on class Y isn't healthy design as it makes blocks on class A, B, C and ETC kind of useless.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Morwath.9817

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

Unblockable is lazy design as are long i-frames.

Yeah but it's necessary when their design trend is quite seriously providing some classes with nearly 50% to 75% block uptime, and that's not to mention the dodges/evades/invulns/anti-projectiles they may have.

Pick your poison man. The game either needs to lose some of this over-defense going on or it needs more unblockables given to classes that no longer or never did have unblockables.

@Sahne.6950 I think is right, the idea of adding more unblockable CCs that would be able to interrupt these kinds of invulnerable phases. That would help the classes/builds that struggle against these overly defensive invulnerable archetypes. Just a simple unblockable CC to create counterplay opportunity.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[coro.3176]

I think it's tough because some classes have access to several invuln/blocks they can combine, but many builds might not be using them all. Eg. If as an engi, I can potentially chain shield block into gear shield into elixir S into shield reflect while I wait for holo forge to come off cooldown, that's a decent stall. But if I'm *only* running gear shield, and it's the sole 2-second block on my build, I want it to kittening work. I'm gonna be sad if it always gets punched through by common unblockables that are designed to counter builds much more defensive than me. Y'know?

[Morwath.9817]

22 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yeah but it's necessary when their design trend is quite seriously providing some classes with nearly 50% to 75% block uptime, and that's not to mention the dodges/evades/invulns/anti-projectiles they may have.

Pick your poison man. The game either needs to lose some of this over-defense going on or it needs more unblockables given to classes that no longer or never did have unblockables.

@Sahne.6950 I think is right, the idea of adding more unblockable CCs that would be able to interrupt these kinds of invulnerable phases. That would help the classes/builds that struggle against these overly defensive invulnerable archetypes. Just a simple unblockable CC to create counterplay opportunity.

It's not. The easiest fix is to lower i-frame uptime.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Well you can only blame the devs. They gave blocks to gaurd, invis, evades and detarget to thf, telports and blocks to mes, what's left for ele to have?

Their only solution was invuln the mistform and obsidian skin, earth shield.  That's just the nature of the beast.  And it will never change.

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

^ thread title

Not even going to elaborate too much here as I'm sure everyone knows what I'm talking about.

Ele & Mes are the biggest culprits. We can INB4 discussion about if it is or isn't OP, which in my opinion both of these classes are overboard lately in terms of off-node combat potential. But what I'm mainly talking about is how obnoxious invulnerable designs are. No one likes to play against builds that have infinite cycling damage mitigation tools. It's getting to a point where unless classes are melee based and have access to ublockables, you can't hit these kinds of invulnerable designs. They seriously have enough blocks/invulns/random extra evades on top of dodges, on top of infinite anti-projectile, to completely mitigate damage unless someone brings some particular very specific build that has very specific tools to be able to get around the insanely stupid amount of utility it has for not defensive play, but invulnerable play.

These builds like this are way too easy to wield compared to what a Thief player has to do to mitigate damage as example or even a Spellbreaker, and for some reason they still maintain heavy damage output while having these virtually invulnerable defenses vs. most classes.

The big thing to state is that every class/build should have the opportunity to at least be able to land strikes against these builds. It's a bad game design when something has so much defense available that it forces opponents into selecting only maybe 3 or 4 viable build structures that have the mechanics to even threaten it.

Either nerf this stupid **** or start adding more unblockables to more classes again.

whats the problem with perpetually immune virtuoso, that is perpetually kittening useless, how is this any different then playing thief and spending 75% of the match stealth or playing bunker scrapper or some other never dying useless kitten
if its teamfight ignore it cuz its useless if its sidenode get a cap for free, and that is all there is to it.

[Zekent.3652]

52 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

whats the problem with perpetually immune virtuoso, that is perpetually kittening useless

That's the problem.

[Leonidrex.5649]

27 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

That's the problem.

you can do the same kitten on every class, just in a different way

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

whats the problem with perpetually immune virtuoso, that is perpetually kittening useless, how is this any different then playing thief and spending 75% of the match stealth

 

Note that second one got axed because, even though it was useless for conquest except in very limited situations, it was annoying enough to anyone that fought it in a 1v1 scenario that the devs reworked (then nerfed) the entire traitline. 

In fact I remember quite clearly that even useless builds that could do not much else but disengage if challenged were singled out on thief for nerf requests, in some cases by you specifically. I recall you had a significant issue with shortbow 5. 

I don't really understand the confusion, given that. This is the same thing, is it not? 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Leonidrex.5649]

38 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Note that second one got axed because, even though it was useless for conquest except in very limited situations, it was annoying enough to anyone that fought it in a 1v1 scenario that the devs reworked (then nerfed) the entire traitline. 

In fact I remember quite clearly that even useless builds that could do not much else but disengage if challenged were singled out on thief for nerf requests, in some cases by you specifically. I recall you had a significant issue with shortbow 5. 

I don't really understand the confusion, given that. This is the same thing, is it not? 

 

tif is still FAR stronger then virtuoso and as I said, every class can do same kitten but in a different way.
If virtuoso is to be nerfed because hurr durr it doesnt die, then every single build that does the same thing deserves to be nerfed at which point we need to nerf everything.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

I think it's tough because some classes have access to several invuln/blocks they can combine, but many builds might not be using them all. Eg. If as an engi, I can potentially chain shield block into gear shield into elixir S into shield reflect while I wait for holo forge to come off cooldown, that's a decent stall. But if I'm *only* running gear shield, and it's the sole 2-second block on my build, I want it to kittening work. I'm gonna be sad if it always gets punched through by common unblockables that are designed to counter builds much more defensive than me. Y'know?

I see what you mean, but what makes those options balanced is that it can only take those options while taking those options. In other words, while it is defensing like that it must 100% defense and drop all offensive pressure completely.

The builds I am referencing here in this thread that are problematic, are able to maintain most of their offensive pressure simultaneously while also running nearly 90% defensive invulnerable cycles.

It's a stupid trend they've gone down for balancing and it is lazy balancing in general. It's like at some point within the Arenanet balance team they tought to themselves: "Oh people are saying it's underpowered? Go ahead and slap another 2s invuln on there. Go ahead let's put a 2s misc block on there that allows you to attack while blocking. Go ahead let's stack on some random anti-projectile that happens with every weapon attack". Lazy balancing that has led to some very real problems currently.

3 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

whats the problem with perpetually immune virtuoso, that is perpetually kittening useless

Enough with that cliche mesmer response.

Clearly a build that dishes out high burst damage that has nuclear cockroach survivability is a great plus build, a great 1v1 duelist, and certainly not useless.

Too many mesmer players lately are all like "Bro I'm not the best node holder so my class is useless in conquest". It's silly. Your class is not useless, it's just not currently the dominant side node. Well actually..... Chronobunker is one of them lately....

So let's try to hear less of that cliche "I can't hold a node" bull**** because that's not true at all.

3 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

how is this any different then playing thief and spending 75% of the match stealth

Because that's precision play and positioning.

You can actually still hit a thief that's in stealth pretty easily with intuitively used skills like a Maul or Arc Slice thrown at the right time into the place you know the thief is probably at.

Ele & Mes invuln rofling is "invulnerability". There is no counterplay to it and it's making the game dynamic stale man.

3 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

or playing bunker scrapper

No.

Tanky sustainy builds are different than invulnerable build designs. Tanky/sustainy builds usually have to sacrifice most of the DPS they have, and they are only good to sustain damage from 1v1s or maybe some 1v2s. But the moment they get +'d 3v1 they go down real fast.

Invulnerable build designs however, with mass invuln effects and mass blocks and mass straight evades, these kind of build structures can maintain most if not all of their potential DPS and cover what should be a glass cannon build structure with a plethora of invulnerability effects, easily escaping even 1v3+ situations if they need to because well... invulnerability.

Too many invulnerable, blocking, evading, anti-projectile, passive CC phases makes a build TOO STRONG. Arenanet seems to think glass cannon structures should have a lot of these effects but the more effects like this you grant to them, the higher their DPS potential goes up because they can use just these defenses instead of needing to invest any stats at all into anything attribute-tied. They can run Berserker/Scholar with all traits pointed towards pve like DPS and still be an absolute tank like a Virtuoso because they've given way too many free invuln effects. Like an inordinate unnecessary amount of random invulnerability that also allows them to maintain offense while using those defensive effects.

Keep in mind there is a big difference between oldschool invulns like Renewed Focus or Elixir S that lock you into a defensive animation for the duration of the invuln, vs. these new school invulns that allow something to be invulnerable while bursting you at the same time.

1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

you can do the same kitten on every class, just in a different way

No you can't at all. You say "the viruoso is perpetual defense but its useless" which is bologna and you know it. The virtuoso can actually realistically be 90% invulnerable while still landing massive ranged shatters.

Other builds that tried to mimic that level of 90% invulnerable uptime, would lose like all DPS and all utility to be able to do that. And almost all of their defenses would be only defense animations that did not allow offensive pressure during the defensive animations.

1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

tif is still FAR stronger then virtuoso

But it's not though. I can kill any Thief on virtually any build I run, and this is why even the best Thieves generally try to completely avoid me in matches. Virtuoso though? Well I have to avoid them. If they are competent players I can't hold a node against it regardless of the build I run and it takes way way way way too long to attempt to kill it in a 1v1 to even be worth engaging it over a node. Stop acting like Virtuoso is somehow crippled and useless because it isn't.

Also, Virtuoso is way way stronger than Thief in WvW, all Mesmer builds are. Seriously, running across an expensively well designed Mes build played by a good player in WvW roaming, is like 1v1ing some kind of a sentient invulnerable raid boss. Mes and Eles are like this in WvW. They've been given too much man. They really have.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[AzuritaBlues.3206]

37 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Keep in mind there is a big difference between oldschool invulns like Renewed Focus or Elixir S that lock you into a defensive animation for the duration of the invuln, vs. these new school invulns that allow something to be invulnerable while bursting you at the same time.

 

I mean, Mist Form and Obsidian Flesh also locks the Ele into a defensive animation. Same thing with Earth Shield Invul and Fortified Earth's block. Arcane shield is the only utility that let Ele take actions while blocking, but it only blocks three hits and it's not even as annoying as Aegis spam IMO. All of those skills have high cooldowns already, but if a balance pass is needed, I would vouch to further increase the cooldowns instead of shoving the skills completely, because Ele do need those tools to survive outnumbered situations, it's to vulnerable to getting focused.

But I do agree that projectile reflects/denial should have more counterplay and more sources of unblockable should be added to PROJECTILE skills SPECIFICALLY. We def don't need more unblockable CC's 🥴

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

41 minutes ago, AzuritaBlues.3206 said:

I mean, Mist Form and Obsidian Flesh also locks the Ele into a defensive animation. Same thing with Earth Shield Invul and Fortified Earth's block. Arcane shield is the only utility that let Ele take actions while blocking, but it only blocks three hits and it's not even as annoying as Aegis spam IMO. All of those skills have high cooldowns already, but if a balance pass is needed, I would vouch to further increase the cooldowns instead of shoving the skills completely, because Ele do need those tools to survive outnumbered situations, it's to vulnerable to getting focused.

But I do agree that projectile reflects/denial should have more counterplay and more sources of unblockable should be added to PROJECTILE skills SPECIFICALLY. We def don't need more unblockable CC's 🥴

The problem with high skill cap Eles is that they have enough effects of smaller things like anti-projectile, stand in earth attune to stop crits, shock aura, ect ect ect ect ect ect, to where they can compound these effects to actually create functional invulnerability, like actual invulnerability once all these effects are stacked.

The other problem with Ele is this isn't even selfish sustain, at least half of it is also big AoE direct team support that allows the players with it to have the same defenses.

It's just too bloated. Going into 2023 here, in the 2v2 arena as example, it becomes painfully obvious that these classes that are spamming invulnerability are greatly superior to classes/build that cannot do the same thing. A team of 2x mediocre Catalysts will likely beat a high tiered Thief & a high tiered Herald, as example. Why? Because the 2x Catalysts will constantly constantly be spamming invulnerability onto each other. They don't even need precision play man, just walk at the Thief & Herald while spamming defenses and pushing random AoE damage buttons. That's seriously all they have to do. Meanwhile, the high tiered Thief & Herald are sweating it out in every way possible, utilizing like 3x the mechanical skill factor vs the 2x Catalysts to accomplish virtually no damage output because the Catalysts are pumping out nearly 100% shock aura uptime, far beyond 100% anti-projectile uptime, pumping out 4x conjure earth shields that each other can use off of each other's CDs, with an ICD that is so low that the invulns never end, very seriously never end.

It's just too bloated and it's making the game dumb. It's like beyond Pepega at this point.

You said that: "because Ele do need those tools to survive outnumbered situations, it's to vulnerable to getting focused."

I'm sure neither you or any other Ele player wants to hear this, but you guys have been so OP for so long, Ele mains have become desensitized to how strong their class actually is. This goes as far back as the rise of Fire Weaver. If you guys aren't the king side node 1v1, or you can't bunker a node and survive 1v3s, you think your class is weak. This is hilarious actually. Other classes can't do this stuff man. Other classes you have to like TRY HARD and SWEAT to be a king 1v1 or to actually survive 1v3s. Like you have to be an absolute master of your class and this game in general, to actually 1v3 and survive or win 1v2s on something like a Necromancer or a Engi. But Ele mains seem to feel entitled to having such built-in raw sheer power through massively invulnerability stalemating alone. You're not the first person I've heard say "we need to have all of this". When in reality, you are not understanding the ridiculous overabundance of invulnerability you have, and that other classes are also prone to bursting. A Spellbreaker as example, dies just as fast to a coordinated burst from a Herald and a Sic Em Soulbeast, if he gets hit while being CC'd or something, as your Ele does. The only difference is that there is rarely ever an opporunity to actually hit your Ele because it's constantly sitting inside of an actual tornado of 90% invulnerability uptime.

Go play around with some other classes for awhile and come back here, tell me how it works out for ya. Like go try a Herald, Spellbreaker, Willbender, Ranger, any Thief spec, any Engi spec, or even what is supposed to be a tanky Necromancer build. Come back here and tell me how it feels to play without 90% invulnerability uptime.

Sorry, don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to be insulting. I'm being completely serious.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Let me change perspective on this:

I was just dueling a guy in NA who was on Virtuoso. This person is not a bad player, I'd say he's a decent player, not a great player. The 1v1 was ridiculously elongated because I simply cannot hit him. The 1v1 goes on for maybe 5+ minutes and I'm feeling like "why am I even engaging this when he's not skilled enough to bait & chase me, and I'm not going to kill him because I can't hit him". At one point he becomes prone and I drop a Barrage/Rapid Fire burst on top of him.

Listen very carefully to what I see next. I wish I would have gotten this one on record. As the Barrage/Rapid Fire begins to hit him, I start seeing flashing above & around his character - invuln - invuln - evade - invuln - block - invuln - block - evade - so on and so forth, through the entire Barrage/Rapid Fire. He has so many compounded defensive effects running at the same exact time, that the game didn't know which effect to choose from to declare how he was mitigating the damage. He stands in the full burst, face tanks it with invulnerability effects. I'm thinking to myself: "He has to have burned through his CDs, I"ll go in at him". I go in offensively and he is STILL - block - block - block. I"m like, k no. So I leave the ffa and drop down on the ledge because the 1v1 is stupid. If he had been on any other class outside of Mes/Ele, I'd be able to kill him in about 3 to 20 seconds. But while on those two classes, he can just spam invulnerability and stalemate me in a 1v1, regardless of the spec I run.

There are a few important points to be made here:

1. Fights need to be able to end - The game is stupid and redundant and boring when there are too many invulnerable archetypes.
2. Adding more invuln is not adequate balancing - Fix classes in proper ways instead of just slapping more invuln on them. Games need mechanics that allow for counter play so that skill differences matter, so that fights can end. A good example of proper defensive mechanics that show the difference between high skill factor vs. low skill factor, are things like Thieves & Spellbreakers. You either utilize your stuff at the proper times to be Chad like, or you mess up and get blown up in 2s. That's how a game should be. A game design should NOT be providing some perpetual cycle of easy button pushing invulnerability all of the time that isn't punished for misuse.
3. Balancing should be considered for the game modes provided - It isn't adequate just to balance around what class needs buff what class needs nerf. The balancing needs to take into consideration how conquest or even 2v2s or 3v3s are played. This goes beyond a single class discussion. I'm talking about considering things like overall mobility creep across all classes and how that has effected the feel of conquest, the dynamic it provides, and even applicable job roles. We want the game to feel like Chess where different pieces do different things, not Checkers where everything does the same thing. Games like Chess are much deeper and more complex, better reflecting the difference between high skills values and low skill values. Games like Checkers reflect little difference between high skill factors and low skill factors. Sometimes less is more and Arenanet needs to recognize this.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Dr Meta.3158]

Unblockables aren't good design and also leads to feelings of being cheated in which your skills do not perform their intended function. Like some rifle warrior one shoting a blocking guardian. They should just remove the ability to attack while invulnerable, evading, or blocking. Just put in damage reduction if you want skills like that so they can still be counterplayed.

[Raught.3294]

Yeah tbh I used to really really like pvp, and I still do, but its getting much harder to enjoy it when Everything can be ignored by I-Win buttons only available on certain classes. I'd rather see Invulnerables/Unblockables, etc etc, replaced with a high damage mitigate on that hit, but some damage still bleeds through, like 50-80%.  Same with Projectile blocks. Some classes kind of feel awful to play with the amount of projectile blocks in the game just completely shutting you down permanently. 

 

Like Block the Boon still does 100% damage mitigation.

 

All other, Projectile, Invulnerable, do 60% or 80% damage mitigation, and maybe reduced Condition duration or something. 

[Nezekan.2671]

The design is a bit one dimensional, and not just the way you described. Chrono was completely outside of pvp when it lost distortion, and then came back instantly when it got it back. It doesn't just mean distortion is strong, it also shows how much Chrono relied on being invulnerable during it's combos. Mirage always had distortion and didn't feel the same. So if invuln was strong, Mirage should have been dominating, which it has not been ever since the nerfs, that came with one dodge.

Now look at a class like spellbreaker, they have so much passive defenses that they can ignore your damage for quite some time and proceed to their thing, and do have some active mitigation to boot. Spellbreaker does not need invuln windows to it's damage and not get deleted. Without an invuln window, spellbreaker will always defeat Chrono, because it has similar damage with more passive defense. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[Morwath.9817]

They should replace all Invuls with Barriers, would make game much much more interactive.

[Hotride.2187]

I dunno. As of late I'm fighting a lot of mesmers that just spam their shatters with 0 coordination or thought behind it... and I just shake my head. It reminds me a lot of fighting bladesworns before they got nuked and watching them just spam shouts (not that now its much different, but they do die faster). It used to be exciting to fight a mesmer or a war or a power ele that doesn't die in 5 seconds, because the player was skillful. Now its just like most other builds you see in conquest, someone is spamming buttons and things happen.

[Arheundel.6451]

10 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Agreed. Playing and playing against it is just very.... slow.... 

I actually would like the approach, where we get more Unblockable CC skills like Gale for example.

Gale is fantastic to pull a Virtuoso out of his Block-Block-Block madness. Spamming blocks should have more risk and counterplay.

Blocks looses alot of value if every class had 1 unblockable CC for example.   And i think alot of invulns should be a "Fullcleanse and block" instead of being literally untargetable. would have the same defense capability, but could be countereplayed by the unblockable CC.

Right now Invulns are just very uninteractive making the whole design kind of boring.

Professions like ele don't get stealth, 1500 range fast attacks and border hopping mobility to avoid damage, 3/4 of the time you are stuck there getting damage on an elementalist, you don't get to stealth-run and pewpew on an ele...like you can do on a ranger or a thief and neither get access to core block and full counter mechanics. Without projectile denial, even a donkey can sti there at 1500 range and pewpew...then you tell people to dodge...but if you are not a complete tool, for as long as you comfortably sit at 1500 range...I don't really care if you dodge or not...my 1500 range burst is up in half the time it takes for your dodge to recharge and if things go south...I can druid stealth, run and start again..simple isn't it?

You are either given the ability to avoid damage for half the time ( thief-ranger-warrior-revenant....) or you sit there and grind your way through aoe and stealth ambush from 1200/1500 range...you decrease one...you decrease the other too, and one is as BS as much the other.

Is blocking/dashing away and teleport from 1200 range under stealth any more "skilled" then pressing a button and become invulnerable for 3-4s every 40s+?

This @Trevor Boyer.6524, just a ranger specialized in pewpew from safe distance, he gets mad that its simplistic tactic or sitting and powpow with the longbow from distance...doesn't work in all scenarios and he wants that to change, no mention of when other find annoying and frustrating to be forced in dealing with the ranged beep beep. 

P.S played ranger for 7k hours now...I know what the class can do, where the complaints in this thread come from and what type of player may back this up....stealth remains one of the worst MMO implementations and builds like SIC em will not be allowed to exist if anything happens to projectile denial

Edited December 11, 2022 by Arheundel.6451

[Sahne.6950]

32 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Professions like ele don't get stealth, 1500 range fast attacks and border hopping mobility to avoid damage, 3/4 of the time you are stuck there getting damage on an elementalist, you don't get to stealth-run and pewpew on an ele...like you can do on a ranger or a thief and neither get access to core block and full counter mechanics. Without projectile denial, even a donkey can sti there at 1500 range and pewpew...then you tell people to dodge...but if you are not a complete tool, for as long as you comfortably sit at 1500 range...I don't really care if you dodge or not...my 1500 range burst is up in half the time it takes for your dodge to recharge and if things go south...I can druid stealth, run and start again..simple isn't it?

You are either given the ability to avoid damage for half the time ( thief-ranger-warrior-revenant....) or you sit there and grind your way through aoe and stealth ambush from 1200/1500 range...you decrease one...you decrease the other too, and one is as BS as much the other.

Is blocking/dashing away and teleport from 1200 range under stealth any more "skilled" then pressing a button and become invulnerable for 3-4s every 40s+?

This @Trevor Boyer.6524, just a ranger specialized in pewpew from safe distance, he gets mad that its simplistic tactic or sitting and powpow with the longbow from distance...doesn't work in all scenarios and he wants that to change, no mention of when other find annoying and frustrating to be forced in dealing with the ranged beep beep. 

P.S played ranger for 7k hours now...I know what the class can do, where the complaints in this thread come from and what type of player may back this up....stealth remains one of the worst MMO implementations and builds like SIC em will not be allowed to exist if anything happens to projectile denial

While arheundel has some very valueable points he mentions there, that i can get behind any day....

 

i still think that the overall ammount of evade and invulnframes has gotten absurd...

Fireweaver on its prime was already spamming alot of evades that came from its active abilitys.. i thought fighting it was kinda lame but at the same time it required some solid skill. 

HOWEVER...  things like Vindi / Virtuoso are taking it over the top a tiny bit...     they spend more time blocking/Evading/Invuln.... than not.      

Its not overpowered... you can beat these professions... but at the same time.. most of the fight is a waiting game.