Dragon's End is still massively overtuned and random

[Firebeard.1746]

13 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

Simple answer. Winning is fun. If they keep failing, it'll just lead to frustrations and that definitely is not fun.

And if winning is fun, most of you are beating it so handily, then what's value of keeping it harder/adding in all that effort? For me, most days, that effort isn't worth the "fun" (and it's obviously the same for most of the community given the initial reactions to the OP). 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

On 12/20/2022 at 4:17 PM, mandala.8507 said:

So, you removed the part of your comment where you admit you have no clue what I'm referring to when I say this content gatekeeps important and almost entirely unrelated content, which is the primary justification for why I think this meta should be more consistent to clear, and say you fixed your comment?

All I did there was ask for clarification which you've repeatedly dodged while at the same time trying to claim I'm the one somehow "not interested in discussion", which in itself is an extremely backwards claim (where asking for a short/quick clarification of the claim you've made is somehow equivalent of lack of willingness to participate in a sensible discussion).

On 12/20/2022 at 4:17 PM, mandala.8507 said:

And the simply wild claim that, because I don't want to gatekeep other players from all the content tied to this meta, I want the game to be like cookie clicker or something still made the cut?

You're very clearly missing the context of that response. Context which consisted of the quote from your post directly above it as well as the previous sentence (or 3, counting 2 short questions right at the beginning). So of course it made the cut, it's still a vastly better "take" than what it was responding to.

On 12/20/2022 at 4:17 PM, mandala.8507 said:

When I say the fight isn't challenging, I mean from an individual player perspective, and I say this to counter the idea that this fight is somehow added diversity in terms of difficulty of open world encounters. It's not. Tbh, the Weight of the World story instance is a harder fight from an individual player perspective than the DE meta. The DE meta has a high likelihood of failure because it's balanced around a more synergistic and coordinated playstyle than open world currently enables or quite frankly could ever organically support. Randomly tuning some open world encounters for organized, trinity-esque squads with streamlined, selfish dps builds paired with streamlined full support builds when no one is running around open world using those builds is just a poor read of how the game works. A complete lack of fundamental understanding of the design of gw2's dynamic open world. 

And you're basing it on the idea that this event somehow needs those organized "trinity-esque" squads, when it's not. All it does is make it easier to succeed (duh) since the added dps can off-set people that don't really know what they're doing. The idea about needing those fully supported squads to succeed that event is in itself simply false and by extension so is the point you're trying to make here.

On 12/20/2022 at 4:17 PM, mandala.8507 said:

 Your response belies your belief that players who exclusively value combat proficiency are superior and should be the primary, if not sole focus of the game. This is delusion.

Nope, I don't know where you got that from.

[Sobx.1758]

10 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

When they are expected to use builds the game does not help them in any way to obtain? Yes. Notice, that to get more decent builds, players generally have to reach to third-party builds, which is not what most players do.

No, they don't. Not only that, but throughout your posts -for quite some time now- you seem to equate "decent builds" with literally scraping the meta ones. Which is in itself pretty dishonest, dilutes what "decent build" is and what kind of performance the game -including this event- is balanced around. Hint: it's not optimal builds and/or optimal performance.

[Cuks.8241]

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

. Anet made me play this game less by making me fail it 10 times in a row. 

Is this a recent experience or from within the first 2 months?

21 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

And if winning is fun, most of you are beating it so handily, then what's value of keeping it harder/adding in all that effort? For me, most days, that effort isn't worth the "fun" (and it's obviously the same for most of the community given the initial reactions to the OP). 

Because some risk increases the fun. But while a step up from other metas (I dont deny that) I think its decently balanced. Its not AB for sure. But do we really want all metas to be like AB; 10 mins waiting, 5 mins of actual stuff happening, 5 mins of looting chests. I guess if the main goal is minimum effort for max loot, the answer is yes.

[ericpeggy.8206]

People learning dodge, break bar and combo in SP.

Get lost in NKC and EW.

Then they need to do 20K DPS in DE.

Anet is too hard on open world players.

I saw Logan do that to Francis every week.

Maybe give part of rewards to comfort people who spend 1 hour on doing pre events and fail  the meta.

Edited December 24, 2022 by ericpeggy.8206

[Silent.6137]

42 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

And if winning is fun, most of you are beating it so handily, then what's value of keeping it harder/adding in all that effort? For me, most days, that effort isn't worth the "fun"

Extremely minimal effort. Not all meta has to be or should be the same in terms of difficulties. or they'll just be copy/paste boring.

A few of you seems to think organizing a winning team is tedious and takes tons of effort. Let me outline what the steps are and how simple it is:

• Commander list on LFG asking for Alac and Quick (Sub 2 = Alac; Sub 3 = Quick)
• Ask to meet either in Arborstone or Echovald to map in together at certain time or when squad is full so as to enable all to join same map (not necessary but save spam-clicking "Join on X-Map)
• Ask everyone to get 5 stacks of Dragon's End Contributor (takes 10 to 15 minutes) at least before Escort
• If map readiness is high at all zones for the Enhancements (takes 25 minutes), tell everyone to continue farming or take a break
• Split groups into 10 subs. If there are 10 Alac and 10 Quick, great. If not, see if anyone can provide. Else, just proceed with splitting with 1 Alac and 1 Quick in each sub best as the composition will allow.
• Assign Escort/Phase splits (as many variations as they are squads and when they announce the later splits). Example: #1) 1-3 (West); 4-7 (Mid); 8-10 (East) -- 4-5 join West and 6-7 join East after Mid #2) 60% splits -- 1-5 (West); 6-10 (East) #3) 20% Splits -- 1-3 (West); 4-7 (South); 8-10 (East)

That's it for organizing. Practically impossible to fail Escort phase including the Crystal phase.

Just keep an eye out to make sure Crystal phase, 60% and 20% are done fairly evenly and ask players to help out lagging lanes. Most important role for commander is knowing the fights since many may know very little. Players look for commander tag to know where to move. Maybe provide some simple instructions along the way such as announce "CC", "Help out Frost(West)", etc. Some commanders will provide food but not necessary. Usually players will drop banners, food and waystation.

Not complicated at all and very easily organized.

7 minutes ago, ericpeggy.8206 said:

Maybe give part of rewards to comfort people who spend 1 hour on doing pre events and fail  the meta.

But players already get that from the loots and bouncy chests. Very good loots in comparison to other metas. The only problem is there's no discernible chests that you have to manually loot, leading some to think they are not getting rewarded. As for final loots, yes, they can certainly restructure it so even losing teams will get something.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Firebeard.1746]

7 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

Extremely minimal effort. Not all meta has to be or should be the same in terms of difficulties. or they'll just be copy/paste boring.

A few of you seems to think organizing a winning team is tedious and takes tons of effort. Let me outline what the steps are and how simple it is:

• Commander list on LFG asking for Alac and Quick (Sub 2 = Alac; Sub 3 = Quick)
• Ask to meet either in Arborstone or Echovald to map in together at certain time or when squad is full so as to enable all to join same map (not necessary but save spam-clicking "Join on X-Map)
• Ask everyone to get 5 stacks of Dragon's End Contributor (takes 10 to 15 minutes) at least before Escort
• If map readiness is high at all zones for the Enhancements (takes 25 minutes), tell everyone to continue farming or take a break
• Split groups into 10 subs. If there are 10 Alac and 10 Quick, great. If not, see if anyone can provide. Else, just proceed with splitting with 1 Alac and 1 Quick in each sub best as the composition will allow.
• Assign Escort/Phase splits (as many variations as they are squads and when they announce the later splits). Example: #1) 1-3 (West); 4-7 (Mid); 8-10 (East) -- 4-5 join West and 6-7 join East after Mid #2) 60% splits -- 1-5 (West); 6-10 (East) #3) 20% Splits -- 1-3 (West); 4-7 (South); 8-10 (East)

That's it for organizing. Practically impossible to fail Escort phase including the Crystal phase.

Just keep an eye out to make sure Crystal phase, 60% and 20% are done fairly evenly and ask players to help out lagging lanes. Most important role for commander is knowing the fights since many may know very little. Players look for commander tag to know where to move. Maybe provide some simple instructions along the way such as announce "CC", "Help out Frost(West)", etc. Some commanders will provide food but not necessary. Usually players will drop banners, food and waystation.

Not complicated at all and very easily organized.

Our definitions of minimal effort are completely different. 

[Silent.6137]

6 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Our definitions of minimal effort are completely different. 

What's your definition? How much simpler should this be? It only involves a few basic steps but you seem determine to counter anything to make it seems more complex than it actually is.

The only real organizing is splitting groups into 10 subs.

Lane assignments is copy/paste. The rest are just steps that would be done with practically any other meta. List on LFG and call out some simple instructions (copy/paste) along the way.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Sobx.1758]

58 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

And if winning is fun, most of you are beating it so handily, then what's value of keeping it harder/adding in all that effort? For me, most days, that effort isn't worth the "fun" (and it's obviously the same for most of the community given the initial reactions to the OP). 

Ok then you're free to do one of many other events that are basically "show up to get rewards", what's your issue here? That another event wasn't turned to exactly the same thing? Because if it's about worrying that map/event might be somehow abandoned -it's not, duh, I've just joined a bit late to a random lfg squad ~30 minutes ago and succeeded 10 minutes ago. You prefer playing other events? Cool, keep doing it if that's what you want.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

11 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Ok then you're free to do one of many other events that are basically "show up to get rewards", what's your issue here? That another event wasn't turned to exactly the same thing? Because if it's about worrying that map/event might be somehow abandoned -it's not, duh, I've just joined a bit late to a random lfg squad ~30 minutes ago and succeeded 10 minutes ago. You prefer playing other events? Cool, keep doing it if that's what you want.

The op isn't about whether or not there's other events, let alone what the event is intended to be. Having a conclusion of a 10 year saga have so little participation is weird. Weirder still you could just show up since ever until now. I like doing harder content when I have more control over my group. Randos injected into a difficult encounter isn't fun and essentially turns into rng. If you're opening your own map, it might as well be instanced content. Which is what most groups try to do in NA.

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

The op isn't about whether or not there's other events, let alone what the event is intended to be. Having a conclusion of a 10 year saga have so little participation is weird. Weirder still you could just show up since ever until now. I like doing harder content when I have more control over my group. Randos injected into a difficult encounter isn't fun and essentially turns into rng. If you're opening your own map, it might as well be instanced content. Which is what most groups try to do in NA.

I was responding to your post, why are you deflecting that into writing "that's not what OP said" when the words quoted there weren't even his in the first place? Are you presenting your opinion in your posts or are you somehow speaking for OP? Because if you're speaking for yourself then I'm responding to you, no need to pull back into other people's posts now.

"So little participation"? How do you know what participation there is? From what you're saying you've mostly pulled out of that meta quite some time ago. Meanwhile I've joined another squad a bit late ~50 minutes ago (yup) and succeeded the meta ~30 minutes ago (yup). The meta is k, people are running it and succeeding in multiple instances.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Firebeard.1746]

Because the thread itself is about participation in the event. I already do other events way more often. Thanks for nothing and nothing constructive. 

[Sobx.1758]

10 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Because the thread itself is about participation in the event. I already do other events way more often. Thanks for nothing and nothing constructive. 

It is constructive since in your posts you've literally said:

1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

And if winning is fun, most of you are beating it so handily, then what's value of keeping it harder/adding in all that effort? For me, most days, that effort isn't worth the "fun" (and it's obviously the same for most of the community given the initial reactions to the OP). 

You're clearly presenting your opinion about what content you perceive as "fun" and my response to it was absolutely relevant to exactly what you've presented in that post:

If there's one event you consider harder (or less fun?) -for whatever reason- and there's a lot of events you can repeatedly participate in which are much easier to succeed in (basically a guaranteed) then just play those events instead. If you're already playing those events instead because you find them more fun... then what's the issue here? That you're not turning every bit of OW content into the same faceroll type of content?

Isn't this what I wrote in my previous post? Isn't this absolutely relevant to your post I responded to? Why are you worried about participation in event you don't enjoy? As I said, that event is still participated and succeeded. Moreover! If I'm not mistaken, in one of your previous posts you've said something about it being a reason for you to go play another game. So despite being able to play many events you enjoy, you're somehow attampting to use that one event you don't enjoy as fuel for "look, I'm leaving the game!".

Edited December 24, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Ashen.2907]

15 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Is failing 90%+ of the time if you don't enter a pre-organized community group exciting? Is that a good experience for players? 

Its been less than 20% fail rate for me and Ive not yet joined a pre-organized community group.

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I got back into WoW because of DE. If Anet is going to start becoming too much like other MMOs or make that level of coordination required, for its chillest content, I might as well raid in WoW. 

You can use whatever reasoning you want as to why you went back to WoW (and there is nothing wrong with enjoying WoW).

Just try to keep it reasonable and logical. GW2 becoming more like WoW is certainly not a large contributing factor. On the contrary, WoW took quite a lot of things from GW2 and incorporated them into their latest expansion.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Firebeard.1746]

I'm still not sure how "i don't find this event fun, obviously most of the community feels the same way given reactions" in response to participation and failute rates connects to "just do something else" when i've literally, as you've pointed out, admitted to playing other game and admitted to doing this particular event less than i'd like. You're right that my opinion is my opinion, but like i've said and you've pointed out, i'm doing something else. Sometimes that something else is here. Sometimes it's somewhere els.e thanks for quoting me to illustrate your entire post is just a troll post as your quotes of me prove i'm doing exactly as you suggestes. You're adding nothing pretending to be smart. Though you bring up a great point with the barrier to success being much lower across the game's open world: why arbitrarily make this one harder?

[Firebeard.1746]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Just try to keep it reasonable and logical. GW2 becoming more like WoW is certainly not a large contributing factor. On the contrary, WoW took quite a lot of things from GW2 and incorporated them into their latest expansion.

Exactly. If they give the more consistently fun experience why play this? I fairness i currently play both. But i'd be spending more time and money in this game if anet didn't think ot was a good idea to shoot me in the face with their open world.

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

I'm still not sure how "i don't find this event fun, obviously most of the community feels the same way given reactions"

A lot of the people come to the forums to complain about something, I think it wouldn't be far-fetched to straight up say "most" does. With that in mind, even if it was somehow majority on the forum (and it probably isn't), it still is extremely far from being "most of the community".

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

in response to participation and failute rates connects to "just do something else" when i've literally, as you've pointed out, admitted to playing other game and admitted to doing this particular event less than i'd like.

Why would you like to do this event more when you're not enjoying it?

If you understand -and claim that's exactly what you do?- you can play a lot of other content you clearly enjoy more and that's more or less "show up and succeed", then by what logic one event you don't enjoy is basis for changing the game or even somehow a case to change that one event into something you already have plenty of in here?

[Cyninja.2954]

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

Exactly. If they give the more consistently fun experience why play this? I fairness i currently play both. But i'd be spending more time and money in this game if anet didn't think ot was a good idea to shoot me in the face with their open world.

 

Fun is obviously subjective and the type of fun you will get from WoW will be very different from the type of fun you will get here. I am a bit confused though because in the end, this reads far more like: I want this game to become more like WoW, which I enjoy more at the moment.

 

Either way, you are free to play what you enjoy at any given point in time. A fresh expansion release with new content and things to do, even new gear to grind, is obviously very exciting. I'd be wary of making any long-term design decision or recommendation around that excitement though.

[Blue D Phoenix.7260]

Don't worry my friend, wait for the next gen 3 legendary weapon skin to be released (it's void/soo won based), then people are gonna swarm up dragons end event, since it might be the last achievement for it.

[Firebeard.1746]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

Fun is obviously subjective and the type of fun you will get from WoW will be very different from the type of fun you will get here. I am a bit confused though because in the end, this reads far more like: I want this game to become more like WoW, which I enjoy more at the moment.

Ah that's not intended. I actually like this game's original dna more but eod has mostly catered to hardcore players with its more difficult content. Even some non-meta event chains aren't soloable for me.but to me, optimizing the boons, making cookie cutter builds and being forced to party for more stuff is more like a traditional mmo and that literally gives 0 incentive to play this game over other mmos. To me optimizing roles gets very close to the spreadsheet optimizations that the devs said they wanted to avoid in the manifesto they wrote on its design. I want that to stay in high end instanced pve where it belongs. The devs are free to do what they want and i am free to do the same, especially when the game i'm playing now is completely different than the one i started playing. 

[Firebeard.1746]

14 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Why would you like to do this event more when you're not enjoying it?

Because of what it represents. If it didn't take as much prep and had a higher success rate with less prep i would and it would be worth the time and i'd actually have fun. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

10 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Because of what it represents. If it didn't take as much prep and had a higher success rate with less prep i would and it would be worth the time and i'd actually have fun. 

Because of what it represents? What exactly does that mean?

[Firebeard.1746]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Because of what it represents? What exactly does that mean?

It's the culmination of the entire main story line of the game for the last decade? Do i really have to point that out?

Edited December 24, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

It's the culmination of the entire main story line of the game for the last decade?

The culmination of the story line is within the story instance though. And imo because it is the latest meta event after the game kept going for a decade it would be severely disappointing if it was as faceroll as some of the other events are.