The Cheese of Jormag, one large hole with all the taste gone with the arctic wind.

[Azureus.5428]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

If I needed my opinion to have this discussion, I would have given it to you. 

The fact remains that despite your dislike for changes to the game, you don't know if they are a detriment to the game or not and THAT is what is important. 

They are a detriment to the vision of the game that tries to make itself interesting to people who do not like to waste their time on 1-2-3-loot and repeat. How would you even deny this?

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Azureus.5428 said:

They are a detriment to the vision of the game that tries to make itself interesting to people who do not like to waste their time on 1-2-3-loot and repeat. How would you even deny this?

It's easy to deny ... because not everyone shares that opinion and the game can't cater to individual players. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Azureus.5428]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

It's easy to deny ... because not everyone shares that opinion and the game can't cater to individual players. 

Not everyone shares the opinion that something extremely easy is not interesting to people who want a remotely challenging experience in their early game, which takes weeks of their free time?

Well then, it calls for some lessons in basic logic!

[Obtena.7952]

31 minutes ago, Azureus.5428 said:

Not everyone shares the opinion that something extremely easy is not interesting to people who want a remotely challenging experience in their early game, which takes weeks of their free time?

Well then, it calls for some lessons in basic logic!

OK .. that has nothing to do with how the game works though. It's a business; it's changed based on that fact. Biased opinions are not compelling arguments to change the game. Anet can't make GW2 cater to every MMO player looking for something specific from the games they play.

Either you like it, you play it ... or you don't. If you don't play it, that's not a problem either. The game doesn't NEED every player in the MMO market to play GW2 to be successful. 

I get it ... you don't like that 'being a business' is taking precedent over quality. Sure, voice your opinion ... but when your opinion is contrary to the things that contribute to the success of the game ... that's when you vote with your wallet/time.

Somehow you have failed to recognize that as an older game, it's likely a benefit for EVERYONE for Anet  make 'leveling' content very easy to get new players interacting with top level players, who are likely the majority, who are playing in zones relevant to the focus of most people in the game. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Azureus.5428]

38 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

player looking for something specific from the games they play.

What is the use and effects of games which give people shinies for doing basically nothing?

The training of the rewards areas of the brain is one part of gaming that psychology is VERY interested in.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Azureus.5428 said:

What is the use and effects of games which give people shinies for doing basically nothing?

I don't know ... but this isn't an academic discussion and GW2 isn't an experiment in a university. It's a business. If you don't like the effect that games have that give people shinies for doing basically nothing ... don't play them. If you think that is what GW2 does ... don't play it. 

1 hour ago, Azureus.5428 said:

The training of the rewards areas of the brain is one part of gaming that psychology is VERY interested in.

OK ... that's nice. That probably has something to do with why GW2 is part of a successful business run by Anet. I mean, if people didn't want what GW2 has to offer as a game, they wouldn't play it. Your opinion of the difficulty of starter zones and the impact that difficulty has on the game has nothing to do with that. 

Again, have whatever opinion you want. It's not compelling to change the game how you think it should work, especially when it is likely in contrast with the success of the game. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Azureus.5428]

32 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

success of the game. 

Drugs are usually very successful. And to be watched closely.

[Obtena.7952]

29 minutes ago, Azureus.5428 said:

Drugs are usually very successful. And to be watched closely.

Good story bro. What is your point? 

Are you implying that you are simply being an advocate for 'healthly' options for gamers here?

First, I don't believe you, based on how strongly your argument is about YOU.

Second, I would tread VERY lightly into that territory ... I have no doubt that drawing comparisons between game encounter difficulty and  certain 'unhealthly' lifestyle choices is going to be viewed with extreme criticism and censure.  Be smart ... don't go there. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Firebeard.1746]

On 1/3/2023 at 5:52 AM, Azureus.5428 said:

It doesn't even have to be very difficult, it just should retain functional mechanics that force any kind of gameplay that isn't CLUMP UP AND SQUIRT DPS.

Okay, but this is literally the direction of GW2 PVE for a really long time. And they're totally leaning into it with how boons are shared and the fact they're balancing more and more encounters around boon presence. 

I can't say I love this design, but it's totally intended and I've made partial peace with it (I don't want to see boon stacking required in OW). Though if we want to get away from it, we need to be sure that mechanics are better designed in general. There are mechanics in DE that practically don't matter that the script pretends matter (like tail, basically if you catch every CC bar you shouldn't need to do it) and honestly, I think tail is a terrible mechanic with how much it moves, how punishing the timer is and the fact that killing it doesn't bonk Soo Won's HP down at all. Basically your squad could easily burn too much time on the timer chasing the darned thing if you honor it, guaranteeing a fail. If it were closer to a CA arm, I would think it's a better mechanic that meant something. Sometimes to me, in other encounters, there's so many overlapping mechanics that it's not clear to me that there's a true intended formula for dealing with them. Drizzlewood claw feels that way to me. It feels like people are just outhealing/rezzing mechanics soup that's guaranteed to kill you otherwise. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Firebeard.1746

[Silent.6137]

40 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

There are mechanics in DE that practically don't matter that the script pretends matter (like tail, basically if you catch every CC bar you shouldn't need to do it) and honestly, I think tail is a terrible mechanic with how much it moves, how punishing the timer is and the fact that killing it doesn't bonk Soo Won's HP down at all. Basically your squad could easily burn too much time on the timer chasing the darned thing if you honor it, guaranteeing a fail.

How much the tail moves? What are you even talking about? 

The tail always appear on the opposite side from the head. And will only switch sides during bite attacks. It may seem like it moves a lot but bite attacks always occur in twos. Soo-Won will always starts on the south side, and if she switches to north, she'll always switch back. If another bite attack occurs after that, the same sequence will occur.

As for killing tail, although full squad will kill it faster, just a few players can kill it very fast. If commanding, and squads are splits into subs, just have 1/2 deal with it (West squad splits, for example) while the rest just continue to deal with the head. It might take a minute to kill the tail if DPS is low but you'll get rid of the Hardened Shell effect that reduced damage to Soo-Won by 70%. Half the squad can deal a lot of damage to the head as soon as the effect is gone while waiting for the rest to run back and join them.

[Azureus.5428]

2 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

tail

Can't say much about these events, as I strive to avoid anything that involves more than a dozen or so players at the same time. Which leaves me out of quite a lot of gameplay, but well, beats the regular lightshows. 🙂

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Okay, but this is literally the direction of GW2 PVE for a really long time. And they're totally leaning into it with how boons are shared and the fact they're balancing more and more encounters around boon presence. 

To elaborate ... clumping up and DPSing been the direction of the specific content the OP is complaining about since FOREVER. Like, in the history of this game, if there is OW content that requires people to use the 'functional mechanics' as he calls them to succeed (which is frankly, just dodging or not standing in 'bad' places) ... it's EXCEPTIONAL and would require someone to go out of there way to experience it. Even if someone don't use the 'functional mechanics', a player could still participate and get credit for events in those zones, which means they were NEVER effective training grounds for these functional mechanics in the first place. 

The fact is that as the game evolves, it's of primary interest to shuttle players through these leveling zones as reasonably fast as possible for multiple reasons:

1. the level 80 zones is where Anet has focused on delivering new content since HoT era 
2. if you actually want to play with experienced players at a much higher rate, those level 80 zones are where players need to be

Here is the dig of the thread ...  it's unreasonable to think Anet is going to go in an revamp low-value, dated content, especially if it hampers the progression of a player trying to get to the zones where they can interact with the game and other players in a more meaningful way ... and yes, I'm speculating here but ... the 80 zones are the content that entices people to spend their dollars on the game.

If the OP made this complaint pre-HoT, it would have merit because those zones were a significant part of the game, even for veteran players and downgrading that would probably not have been good. That's no longer the case. The complaint does not consider the impact that making leveling content harder would have for the game, in general, considering the bulk of what is happening in the game is NOT in those leveling areas.  

Edited January 7, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Azureus.5428]

17 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

it's unreasonable to think Anet is going to go in an revamp low-value, dated content

It is so due to not only neglect, but active diminishing of its value through rescaling it in the most crude and cheap manner available, purposefully removing anything that would stress out the kiddies (this game has violence and alcohol, what the hell are they even doing here) and introducing power creep to slowly turn the zones into a collection of autowinnable jokes.

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, Azureus.5428 said:

It is so due to not only neglect, but active diminishing of its value through rescaling it in the most crude and cheap manner available, purposefully removing anything that would stress out the kiddies (this game has violence and alcohol, what the hell are they even doing here) and introducing power creep to slowly turn the zones into a collection of autowinnable jokes.

Well, describe it however you want ... your negative wordsmithing here doesn't change the truth of what I'm saying or make it any more compelling for Anet to change it.

Again, if you're sore about how the game has changed in these zones, you have options as a player to how you interact with the game in those zones. That's why this isn't a problem. Don't like those zones? Don't play them. Again, it all comes down to using the choices you have a player to solve the problem you encounter. Anet can't cater to how you think the game should work. 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Azureus.5428]

8 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

if you're sore
Don't play them.

 

 

I am sure it took a long time to come up with this brilliant solution, kudos, but no, thanks, I mostly roleplay my characters and go where they want to.

You don't say, negative wording in a case where somebody took a game that was never designed to handle megaserver player loads and then did absolutely nothing to restructure the events in order for them to still function as something more that

1) 'let me show you my minute long pantomime of being useful'
2) WILL I  GET TO THE MOB IN TIME?!?!
3) ???
4) Profit!!1

And then they additionally lowered the mobs' power, so that any possibility of actually playing a game was out of the question. Yay, am I supposed to be digging through the linguistic vaults for every possible praise of that? 😆

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Azureus.5428

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, Azureus.5428 said:

I am sure it took a long time to come up with this brilliant solution, kudos, but no, thanks, I mostly roleplay my characters and go where they want to.

It didn't take any time. It simply took a basic understanding that this game is part of a business that isn't just about you. You don't seem to want to acknowledge you have few options here. That's OK because reality will impose the few options on regardless of what you feel or think. 

These changes to the game are about how Anet runs GW2 as a business to capture a portion of the MMO market, hoping what they offer is good enough for the market to patronize them. It's not about trying to give every player everything they want the game to be. They simply can't do that. You don't like what they do, then you can complain all you like ... but that's not how Anet measures their business and uses those measures to make decisions about how to change it. 

The worst part of your thread is that you attribute the problems you talk about with changes to the encounters. That's not even correct but ... OK, maybe that's part of your RP I guess. It's not that hard to conclude that the issue here is a hoard of game veterans in top level gear doing an outdated event to complete an seasonal achievement ... but you just be you I guess. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Astralporing.1957]

On 1/6/2023 at 3:27 PM, Azureus.5428 said:

The idea is that I was here first and the game for which I have paid had been built in a way that suited my needs. After pumping thousands in it I've realized that it's being taken away from me and sold to a crowd I preferred to avoid through choosing this particular game.

Oh, you were here first? Fun fact, so was I, and around 3-4 million other people. Another fun fact - i'd also not want the game i've put thousands of hours into to get sold to a crowd i'd rather avoid, and which i hoped to avoid by playing this game. And one more fun fact - the direction and desires you speak of do come from the very crowd i wanted to avoid, and is the very direction i would not want this game to go.

Also, i think that you might either be misremembering the "challenge" of the original game, or you have just never noticed that it's not the game that has changed, but your skill that went up since then. Because i sure remember a game that was a casuals' paradise even at a relatively low level of skill, and was initially hard only because people were underleveled, undergeared, and didn't realize yet how important dodging is.

 

[Azureus.5428]

20 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Oh, you were here first? Fun fact, so was I, and around 3-4 million other people. Another fun fact - i'd also not want the game i've put thousands of hours into to get sold to a crowd i'd rather avoid, and which i hoped to avoid by playing this game. And one more fun fact - the direction and desires you speak of do come from the very crowd i wanted to avoid, and is the very direction i would not want this game to go.

Also, i think that you might either be misremembering the "challenge" of the original game, or you have just never noticed that it's not the game that has changed, but your skill that went up since then. Because i sure remember a game that was a casuals' paradise even at a relatively low level of skill, and was initially hard only because people were underleveled, undergeared, and didn't realize yet how important dodging is.

 

So you're against people who oppose Anet restructuring the original project of the game, after all the testing and careful calibration, in a way that suggests they simply had no staff and money to do any better... and then leaving the results to rot, focusing on the new content and making a whole core of the game something where fails don't happen. Even though they seem to have resources to restore the original vision now.

K. Have it your way.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Azureus.5428

[Randulf.7614]

I don’t really understand this aversion to it being changed because it’s core content, when core content bosses are amongst the most revamped in the game.

Tequatl and Shatterer had significant overhauls. Svanir Shaman, Wurm, Fire Elemental and Shadow Behemoth have had at least two revamps. Claw of Jormag itself had minor changes to prevent exploits trivialising it. Karka Queen and Destroyer had minor health buffs to bring them in line.

Nothing the op is asking for goes in any way against the grain of direction for the core game. Making it harder isn’t the request, making the mechanics work as designed and as intended however, is. Currently it’s broken due to power creep. That requires fixing at some point.

[Nilkemia.8507]

12 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Making it harder isn’t the request,

Except that it is.

 

Original post below :

 

[quote]So, a lot of people have been visiting the edges of the Tyrian Siberia in order to kick around the Big Bad Dragon for the holiday achievement... So I guess most of you will be aware of what I'm going to rant about.

The poor Claw. Once a superpowered beast, for which to kill we had to utilize the mighty charzookas, to protect the top of the line golems, carrying the omega-code secret Asuran explosives, shattering the bone-shattering icicles of painful death. It had mechanics and all, champions spawning everywhere, THE LEDGES, even.

Now what resides there is a pile of HPs kicked around by a pile of players with a certified ability to press 1 and C (default) in turns. The champions are roaming somewhere back there, looking stupid, anyone who dares to do the event according to the mechanics just dies with nobody to resurrect them - the charzookas part is entirely out, because the bunch just packs themselves behind the wall, bugging the hell out of the whole ordeal.

It looks stupid, it is stupid, and even if frozen cheese retains most of its flavour, in this case it's like chewing some withered rubber.

We need some simple buffs for the frost field, or maybe some killer champs around the dragon itself, we need anything to turn this event back to something remotely resembling a thing that needs a shred of thought to complete.

Amirite?
Amirite?[/quote]

 

While I've not done this particular world boss in a long time, I recall the champions not dropping anything, and having overinflated HP and attack power, so of course no one will bother with them. The ice wall could be broken by normal attacks, the charrzookas just did it better (maybe), and they already got rid of the ledges so there's no safe spot to avoid that stupid chill you to death field.

 

They are clearly asking for it to be harder without outright saying it. Moreover, they want to do it in perhaps the worst ways ever, all because apparently most others won't bother with that. I wonder why...

 

 

[Randulf.7614]

5 hours ago, Nilkemia.8507 said:

Except that it is.

 

Original post below :

 

[quote]So, a lot of people have been visiting the edges of the Tyrian Siberia in order to kick around the Big Bad Dragon for the holiday achievement... So I guess most of you will be aware of what I'm going to rant about.

The poor Claw. Once a superpowered beast, for which to kill we had to utilize the mighty charzookas, to protect the top of the line golems, carrying the omega-code secret Asuran explosives, shattering the bone-shattering icicles of painful death. It had mechanics and all, champions spawning everywhere, THE LEDGES, even.

Now what resides there is a pile of HPs kicked around by a pile of players with a certified ability to press 1 and C (default) in turns. The champions are roaming somewhere back there, looking stupid, anyone who dares to do the event according to the mechanics just dies with nobody to resurrect them - the charzookas part is entirely out, because the bunch just packs themselves behind the wall, bugging the hell out of the whole ordeal.

It looks stupid, it is stupid, and even if frozen cheese retains most of its flavour, in this case it's like chewing some withered rubber.

We need some simple buffs for the frost field, or maybe some killer champs around the dragon itself, we need anything to turn this event back to something remotely resembling a thing that needs a shred of thought to complete.

Amirite?
Amirite?[/quote]

 

While I've not done this particular world boss in a long time, I recall the champions not dropping anything, and having overinflated HP and attack power, so of course no one will bother with them. The ice wall could be broken by normal attacks, the charrzookas just did it better (maybe), and they already got rid of the ledges so there's no safe spot to avoid that stupid chill you to death field.

 

They are clearly asking for it to be harder without outright saying it. Moreover, they want to do it in perhaps the worst ways ever, all because apparently most others won't bother with that. I wonder why...

 

 

I would suggest two things. Firstly, it’s never wise to quote half a sentence without the rest of the context. The full quote of mine is about restoring the mechanics to relevancy. Also, I suggest doing the boss in its current state. You will see the significant problem in action. You haven’t done it in years you say, so it’s difficult to discuss the issue without knowing the problem. People indeed just sit on the chill to avoid the death field now because healing is so powerful, all mechanics - including the wall - can be avoided. The boss is dead in seconds.

[robertthebard.8150]

4 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I would suggest two things. Firstly, it’s never wise to quote half a sentence without the rest of the context. The full quote of mine is about restoring the mechanics to relevancy. Also, I suggest doing the boss in its current state. You will see the significant problem in action. You haven’t done it in years you say, so it’s difficult to discuss the issue without knowing the problem. People indeed just sit on the chill to avoid the death field now because healing is so powerful, all mechanics - including the wall - can be avoided. The boss is dead in seconds.

So, how often will they have to revamp this?  We have a tendency to play games to become more powerful.  We are a far cry from what we were at level 1 when we hit level 80, even if we don't invest a lot of time into Legendary/Ascended gear.  "But that's because of power creep.", partially true.  Yes, there's some power creep, but there's also skill creep, and mechanics learning creep.  So even if power creep was cut out tomorrow, content would still become progressively easier as we play the game.

So, are they going to revisit all of this content every month?  Every 6 months?  Every year?  Will they have to be updating it every week?  Say that they upgrade it now, how long until we get another one of these threads?

[Randulf.7614]

13 minutes ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

So, how often will they have to revamp this?  We have a tendency to play games to become more powerful.  We are a far cry from what we were at level 1 when we hit level 80, even if we don't invest a lot of time into Legendary/Ascended gear.  "But that's because of power creep.", partially true.  Yes, there's some power creep, but there's also skill creep, and mechanics learning creep.  So even if power creep was cut out tomorrow, content would still become progressively easier as we play the game.

So, are they going to revisit all of this content every month?  Every 6 months?  Every year?  Will they have to be updating it every week?  Say that they upgrade it now, how long until we get another one of these threads?

It needs one pass unless it breaks again. It would be strange to even think of it in terms of weekly, monthly, yearly etc. They revamped previously when required or broken.

Revamped is perhaps the wrong word. Restore or correct it is more accurate. It simply is broken existing in its current state. It just needs to be as it was designed to be. It is currently not functioning to its design.

It took years for this state to exist, so it’s not a regular correction. But, one that is justfied. It doesn’t make sense for the Claw of Jormag to take less time to kill than a bounty or a standard champ.

[robertthebard.8150]

6 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

It needs one pass unless it breaks again. It would be strange to even think of it in terms of weekly, monthly, yearly etc. They revamped previously when required or broken.

Revamped is perhaps the wrong word. Restore or correct it is more accurate. It simply is broken existing in its current state. It just needs to be as it was designed to be. It is currently not functioning to its design.

It took years for this state to exist, so it’s not a regular correction. But, one that is justfied. It doesn’t make sense for the Claw of Jormag to take less time to kill than a bounty or a standard champ.

Cool, until this thread, or one like it, shows up again, and again.  Because it will.  So, if it were "fixed" today, and it took a minute, instead of seconds, nobody would be here insisting that it's too easy?

[Randulf.7614]

13 minutes ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

Cool, until this thread, or one like it, shows up again, and again.  Because it will.  So, if it were "fixed" today, and it took a minute, instead of seconds, nobody would be here insisting that it's too easy?

I don’t think we are discussing the same thing at this point to be honest. This thread exists because the encounter is currently broken. Not because it’s fundamental design is too easy. It just needs restoring to how it was designed. Nothing more.

Im not sure how anticipating it breaking again is relevant really, but yes if the design mechanics break down again, it should be fixed again. It took many years to get this point though.

I genuinely don’t understand the objections though. It existed for years without complaint and ensuring it’s preserved shouldn’t be controversial.