Untamed......can it be salvaged?

[Arheundel.6451]

There was already close to zero reason to play untamed before at launch, it was barely holding up when judged against soulbeast and druid. But then after the buffs and changes to the latter, I have found myself with zero reason to even play an Untamed, to a point where I wish I could get a refund for the money spent on EoD

I never needed a freaking boat as I have a water bound pet...not interested in fishing in a mmo and...Im not a pver if I can help it and that leaves me with PvP/WvW :

Why would I play an Untamed in PvP or WvW?

-Slowest elite, can't roam on it at all...not disengage like druid or the mobility of a soulbeast

-Based on a dead and terrible mechanic like pets

-You lose access to the actual mechanic once the pets die....at least on druid you can still use Celestial Avatar when the pets die....once the pet dies on an untamed you become a core ranger with less sustain ( not that the pet alive add that much more sustain to start with on untamed)

-The teleport utility is just a random addition and somehow it's now the only reason to play an Untamed ...sad really

-The boonrip is laughable against heavy boon centric specs the ones....ranger actually needed help with the most, removing boons from weaker specs does not make much difference compared to before

-Where is the actual sustain to justify taking the elite? the 10% dmg reduction? haaa.....need blocks or mobility, how is this elite described as a brawler?...no boon output except that 90s CD elite with a huge 1s cast time that just shout :"Interrupt me please please...do it now"

 

Am I alone in feeling this way about Untamed?

Edited January 14, 2023 by Arheundel.6451

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

Untamed does not need much help right now in pvp/wvw. It works great in small scale and can work well as a duo roamer, and in PvP it's a straight upgrade to the core tail swipe build which was already pretty good. The ranger itself has a very strong set of flat bonuses that you for the most part control yourself- vow of the untamed is really strong, in fights where you stand your ground youll probably end up getting full Ferocious Symbiosis anyways. Unnatural Traversal to help chase (900 range targeted shadowstep), Forest's Fortification is an absolutely busted defensive elite, I think this one is a "get good" thing for you- it's a 50% damage reduction.

 

In PvE, it does one thing better than druid or soulbeast: Utility spam. For this example, I'll talk about the elite spirit- baseline, once every 40 seconds, you can revive up to 5 people in an area with the spirit. With untamed, you can cool down the spirit active in 10 hard CCs. That sounds like a lot, but remember you can use hammer on power untamed (that's quite a few already due to how fast you cool down stuff with hammer) as well as Exploding Spores and if you really needed it, spike trap or storm spirit. This means that once every probably ~7s you can use the spirit again (if using the Fervent Force build well, making no mistakes in your CC skills etc). This works for just about every utility skill you could think to bring, and is the reason why Untamed is the only ranger DPS alacrity build. This is, however, subject to change, because as much of a fun concept this trait is, it can be more than a little unbalanced especially considering how they have to effectively balance around it even if it kills something for other ranger specs, and they have stated they're reworking untamed.

 

I do think it's salvageable, because there isn't much needed to be salvaged in terms of an actual effectiveness perspective. Pet spec perspective? Oh yeah, Untamed was marketed as such and basically doesn't do pets any better than core. Generally being effective? Absolutely not.

Also, your poll options are bad imo. It brings a different playstyle compared to supportive-disruptive druid, and a different one from bursty-mobile soulbeast. It's slightly tanky due to the flat bonuses from Vow and very tanky due to the bonuses from Forest's Fortification (which, again, isn't a 10% damage reduction bonus, it's 50%. Half damage taken while the elite is active, and even just hitting a target will cool it down). Saying "it doesn't bring anything unique" is wrong, you bring a bruiser in pvp or boon dps in pve, but I do think it needs a slight rework. I'm not entirely happy with it's position due to the class fantasy, even though it is pretty good right now (especially after the buff to hammer where it gets a damage bonus on defiant foes).

[Zaret.1450]

The thing for me is, for roaming and small scale it is good, but soulbeast already is a good roamer and assasin while untamed should focus more on zerg fights, small scale is good but they could make it work on smal and big scale better.

What id change are 2 main things, pets and ambushes.

Pets overall need a rework, the orders you give them are too restricted at attack and come back, a guard mode so it stays inside a small area that you point, like when you put an arrow for the scuad to see for example, or so it stays around you in agrresive mode but doesnt go further than a small distance, then we need to focus on another aspect, in zerg play pets are too fragile, while in pve they lack dmg, a new boon source for pets is a must, the trait in nature magic is too restrictive and following meca and having a share boon pasive on a signet, or in beastmastery would be preferable, next making unleash boon affect pet too, unleashed it hits harder, leashed it tanks better, with this pets would become a great tool for ranger/untamed, and roamers/pvp wouldnt suffer much i think as soulbeast fuses with the pet, on pvp you could tweak a bit numbers.

As for ambushes, the way they work is too troublesome, they said they wanted to maintain hammer unique, but making ambushes timed, slotted on the autoattack, and with that icd is just toooo bothersome and unreliable, we have a trait that makes ambushes hit harder and strip boons, and all ambushes are great area skills, so untamed could be a great boon stripper if ambushes just became unleashed skills, slot them on the 2 weapon skill, meaning, unleashed you sacrifice your harder hitting skills, maul, rapid fire, etc, for an area hit that has a boon strip, the stip could have an icd similar to maybe necro wells or just strip less boons, as you have 2 weapons but skill and weapon swap cd it would be balanced, and as this ambushes do so much youd loose dmg, as leashed you dont hit as hard and unleashed you have a skill that hits less, but as pets are stronger and you have more area and utility it compensates.

An untamed with frost trap, spores, entangle, its inmortality, reliable boon strip and area skills on every weapon, and upgraded pets could perfectly find a spot in both small and big scale fights, maybe as a reaper alternative, less dmg or corrups but much more cc, bubble, etc.

Also hammer couks stay as is, with its spinner ambush so it is unique enought without indering other weapons changes.

 

[Abyssisis.3971]

It definitely needs to be reworked.

The spec was such a poorly implemented, disappointing espec that I went back to playing soulbeast as soon as I finished the story and now I just log in daily for the rewards, those gen3 timedgated stones and just wait for the next expansion while playing other games during the time I would have spent on gw2.

[Mell.4873]

Okay there is alot here to unpack. 

sPvP Untamed is fine, it's really WvW that is your main concern. 

1: The lack of mobility confuses me since in reality how many people are playing both pets for Soulbeast especially in WvW (Smokescale is much better). Druid staff is much better at engaging and chasing rather than escaping. Untamed is not only tanker than both of them but has many ways to slow down enemies, prevent mobility loss and super speed (griffen stance is not a good alternative). 

2: You can't roam in sPvP the same way as the other two elites. The point of Untamed is commit to your engagement and not run away. I don't know how many times I have won with an opposing Soulbeast who is playing merry go round rather than holding a point. 

3: Pet should not be dying unless you have it on aggressive. 

4: Don't scoff at 10% Damage reduction, with some vitality(carrion armor for sPvP) you almost can't die. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Arheundel.6451]

9 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Okay there is alot here to unpack. 

sPvP Untamed is fine, it's really WvW that is your main concern. 

1: The lack of mobility confuses me since in reality how many people are playing both pets for Soulbeast especially in WvW (Smokescale is much better). Druid staff is much better at engaging and chasing rather than escaping. Untamed is not only tanker than both of them but has many ways to slow down enemies, prevent mobility loss and super speed (griffen stance is not a good alternative). 

2: You can't roam in sPvP the same way as the other two elites. The point of Untamed is commit to your engagement and not run away. I don't know how many times I have won with an opposing Soulbeast who is playing merry go round rather than holding a point. 

3: Pet should not be dying unless you have it on aggressive. 

4: Don't scoff at 10% Damage reduction, with some vitality(carrion armor for sPvP) you almost can't die. 

I still don't get how people can claim that Untamed in WvW can be tankier than soulbeast or even druid.....all the "video evidence" I can find online of "How amazing Untamed is"...it's just a collection of parts where the 90s CD elite is off CD, people pop it...use WHAO with their diviner/celestial and then teleport in to kill engaged lowbies ....

It's no worth money to pay for something that gets to be somehow useful once every 90s or so for 6s and no...it's worth money to even pay for something thay theoritically good in a single gamemode, where people just force themselves to play it to convinve themselves it was a good investment this EoD expansion.

The vast majority of the ranger playerbase waited 4+ years and pay full price for an expansion....just to keep playing soulbeast/druid

Look at 1:50....how easily the thief dispatched the Untamed...soulbeast would have worked otherwise, just a small example but really you guys are clamoring a gameplay that consists of the ranger sitting on the outskirts of fights..waiting for miracle where it can teleport in to deliver significant dmg...all the while hoping he doesn't get targeted bya thief or some bruiser...and we waited 4 years and paid for this?

[Dadnir.5038]

- Untamed is only slightly slower than druid and that's only if you trait staff.

- Yes, the pet's mechanic is terrible, still with untamed you got slightly more control on the skills your pet use, it might surprise you but a bird not using quickening screech is a lot more effective than a bird using it on CD, the same is true for devourers not using tail lash and devourer retreat or many other vanilla pet not using those superflous skills (on F1 and F3 for untamed) that actually impede them.

- You need the 2 pets to die in order to lose the mechanism, for small scale WvW it's still pretty much viable if you keep your pets' health in check.

- The teleport ability is there to keep a certain level of mobility, druid get it on staff (20s CD), soulbeast get it on beast skills (from 10 to 20s CD) and Untamed got it on it's utility skills (40s CD down to 20s if you hit a foe). It is "fair".

- Removing 2 boons every other seconds isn't enough for you? 

- Sustain? You potentially got 3k heal on every unleashed ambush you land, 1.7k Barrier on any cantrip use, a lot of prot and weakness sources, 10% damage returned as health, barrier on hit on a 7s CD weapon skill, blind on a 12s cd skill that also remove boons, stability... etc. All you see is the measly 10% damage reduction when leashed? Seriously? I won't deny that a black bear soulbeast can be potentially more resilient than that, but who here ever used black bear on soulbeast exactly? Who ever bothered to play a stout pet on soulbeast more than once?

[Zaret.1450]

The thing is,  why focus on roa/hunting untamed, i mean you can see hes not an assasin, at least soulbeast fits better there than untamed, in my opinion untamed is just a zerg frontline like reaper would be, if we got a bit more area dmg and strip in a reliable way it would be better than focusing on having another solo roamer.

i mean you dont need hiper movility in a zerg, you have good sustain for big fights, and it has a good amount of area dmg and cc, it only lacks ambush being more... efficient? reliable?, and pet not diing every 5 seconds so we can use bubble and other pet skills.

[Zaret.1450]

6 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

- Untamed is only slightly slower than druid and that's only if you trait staff.

- Yes, the pet's mechanic is terrible, still with untamed you got slightly more control on the skills your pet use, it might surprise you but a bird not using quickening screech is a lot more effective than a bird using it on CD, the same is true for devourers not using tail lash and devourer retreat or many other vanilla pet not using those superflous skills (on F1 and F3 for untamed) that actually impede them.

- You need the 2 pets to die in order to lose the mechanism, for small scale WvW it's still pretty much viable if you keep your pets' health in check.

- The teleport ability is there to keep a certain level of mobility, druid get it on staff (20s CD), soulbeast get it on beast skills (from 10 to 20s CD) and Untamed got it on it's utility skills (40s CD down to 20s if you hit a foe). It is "fair".

- Removing 2 boons every other seconds isn't enough for you? 

- Sustain? You potentially got 3k heal on every unleashed ambush you land, 1.7k Barrier on any cantrip use, a lot of prot and weakness sources, 10% damage returned as health, barrier on hit on a 7s CD weapon skill, blind on a 12s cd skill that also remove boons, stability... etc. All you see is the measly 10% damage reduction when leashed? Seriously? I won't deny that a black bear soulbeast can be potentially more resilient than that, but who here ever used black bear on soulbeast exactly? Who ever bothered to play a stout pet on soulbeast more than once?

To point out, just in case, hes right about several things.

Sustain wise untamed has a good inmortality heal, its a cast so might fail if youre a bit new as i am in wvw, but its great, 10% dmg increase or reduction is also a help of course, the trait that lets you steal life and protect on unleash is decent too, (for barrier, out of hammer, the cantrip barrier may coincide with another trait? i dont remember but i think it does) so overall sustain is good.

The teleport, lb range, gs and hammer jumps and cc, you should be able to catch up with most things, but again i dont think thats as relevant as other things might be.

Now where i dissagree, more or less.

Please note i play mostly roa or normal fights, meaning no gvg and scuads on my server arent usually bigger than 30 something, so tell me if im missing something.

Now pet isnt realy reliable, if you have boons on it at least it kinda revives faster and survives better, but you sacrifice options for nature magic, then pet controls are lacking, and its skills, though good, are a bit... unreliable, you can corrupt, but it can be dodged or blocked, pet might be dead and you can allwais miss or something, i mean its good for a pet but not as reliable.

Ambushes.... for me are a pain, leashing, unleashing, using the ambush or not, having to wait to do autos because i can missuse the ambush, or just not being able to use it for whatever and needing to rotate leash again, for me too much trouble.

I mean ambushes are great, but i think they should have just left them as unleased skills on every weapon, and then leave hammer with the ambush, as in every weapon makes use of unleased, but only hammer gets the true potential, 5 unleases and an upgraded version from time to time to boost.

Any questions about what or how id change things... i have wrote it a lot already, youll find it.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I still don't get how people can claim that Untamed in WvW can be tankier than soulbeast or even druid.....all the "video evidence" I can find online of "How amazing Untamed is"...it's just a collection of parts where the 90s CD elite is off CD, people pop it...use WHAO with their diviner/celestial and then teleport in to kill engaged lowbies ....

It's no worth money to pay for something that gets to be somehow useful once every 90s or so for 6s and no...it's worth money to even pay for something thay theoritically good in a single gamemode, where people just force themselves to play it to convinve themselves it was a good investment this EoD expansion.

The vast majority of the ranger playerbase waited 4+ years and pay full price for an expansion....just to keep playing soulbeast/druid

Look at 1:50....how easily the thief dispatched the Untamed...soulbeast would have worked otherwise, just a small example but really you guys are clamoring a gameplay that consists of the ranger sitting on the outskirts of fights..waiting for miracle where it can teleport in to deliver significant dmg...all the while hoping he doesn't get targeted bya thief or some bruiser...and we waited 4 years and paid for this?

The main problem and advantage to Soulbeast is the adoption of pet skills into the Ranger arsenal. Let's not kid ourselves while Untamed can be tanky and fast Soulbeast has to pick between the two. 

Your primary example is sPvP and is horrible since Mighty Teapot admits Untamed is tanky and aggressive. You also don't have to play the teleport build, I am gold 3 with condition damage Untamed alone.

Alot of this comes down to playstyle, Untamed rather than being a direct improvement over Core/Druid like Soulbeast it is just another way to play Ranger. 

[aymnad.9023]

Even when people where complaining about PvE numbers I said I was enjoying untamed so I still do.

In open world / story I really love hammer. It is the best cleave weapon for ranger and I really enjoy how it feels. You can play with the lifesteal, damage or reset, they all feel different enough. Sometimes I play power alac with diviner and ferocious symbiosis. Technically it can be above 25k on a golem but it does not translate that well into all the raids (especially if the boss moves).

In group content I will play condi alac untamed (axe / axe + sb). The rotation can be simplified, it has some good numbers and with some ritualist gear it is quite reliable. I do not find the power variant as fun or as strong.

In PvP untamed is a lot of fun. I cannot point out exactly what it is but I feel way more like I am part of a team than other ranger specs where I felt “on the side” (most likely because of the movement around the map and teamfights). It can react to a lot of situations making it rewarding. I might go for a chill season next time to try some build variations.

WvW is the game mode I play the least so I cannot comment about that.

Edited January 15, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 1/15/2023 at 6:15 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

- Untamed is only slightly slower than druid and that's only if you trait staff.

 

Gotta disagree on that one.  It's way slower with no staff traiting and like normie vs. usain bolt slower if you trait natural stride.

Mobility is also my biggest issue with untamed because to get any semblance of mobility you have to burn a utility. 

No, I don't care about gs swoop or having swiftness on swap if you go Skirmishing...none of these are untamed specific.  Untamed has zero to compete with staff, natural stride, soulbeast merge speed, or soulbeast merge skills.

Untamed can be effective in small skirmishes where you aren't the main target because hammer has more CCs than any other weapon ranger has and CC is king right now.  Solo isn't great because hammer also has no disengage, and to get that you usually have to run gs which puts you at disadvantage vs. anything that uses wells or traps.

In short, I agree with the fact untamed needs more boon rip options and definitely more speed.  The teleport also really should be ground targeted, or allow ally targeting so you can teleport to your pet or other ally for escaping.  

Also, as for the 'reason' to use it, I find Untamed fits a good +1 role in competitive situations, wheras soulbeast is pure roamer and druid is more of a sidenode / camper (quite literally in WvW if you guard camps).  

Edited January 20, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Zaret.1450]

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Gotta disagree on that one.  It's way slower with no staff traiting and like normie vs. usain bolt slower if you trait natural stride.

Mobility is also my biggest issue with untamed because to get any semblance of mobility you have to burn a utility. 

No, I don't care about gs swoop or having swiftness on swap if you go Skirmishing...none of these are untamed specific.  Untamed has zero to compete with staff, natural stride, soulbeast merge speed, or soulbeast merge skills.

Untamed can be effective in small skirmishes where you aren't the main target because hammer has more CCs than any other weapon ranger has and CC is king right now.  Solo isn't great because hammer also has no disengage, and to get that you usually have to run gs which puts you at disadvantage vs. anything that uses wells or traps.

In short, I agree with the fact untamed needs more boon rip options and definitely more speed.  The teleport also really should be ground targeted, or allow ally targeting so you can teleport to your pet or other ally for escaping.  

Also, as for the 'reason' to use it, I find Untamed fits a good +1 role in competitive situations, wheras soulbeast is pure roamer and druid is more of a sidenode / camper (quite literally in WvW if you guard camps).  

Right now druid is pretty good as a healer in wvw zergs i think, at least i think it is close with vindi and ele in the healing/cleanse tier.

For SB i agree, its a roamer, an assasin roamer tipe id say.

As for untamed, it could perfectly be the dps option gor zergs, on the part of boon rip i agree, but instead of more options id say it needs its options to be more consistent, both pet and ambushes are, at the very least, bothersome and inconsistent, with many factors to consider, if pet had more sustain, and ambushes became permanent unleashed skills the boon rip would easily compete against necro or even mesmer. As for its mobility, i agree the tp would be cool to be ground targeted, if not the trait, was it FS? could give the mobility speed baseline and just stack dmg increase for example, with that said, in a big zerg fight teleports and movement increases can make you move without sync with the tag wich is a pain, maybe it would be better if we got an unblockable or something for zerg fights when we cant go melee, so we don't suffer as much from a reflect for example.

[PolarBear.3961]

Making it a pet spec like its supposed to be would be a good start... remove the stupid ambush and make unleash into a berserk type of buff for the pet. Also a total revamp of pets would be great.

[Sansar.1302]

2 hours ago, PolarBear.3961 said:

Making it a pet spec like its supposed to be would be a good start... remove the stupid ambush and make unleash into a berserk type of buff for the pet. Also a total revamp of pets would be great.

It should not be a pet spec beyond that it gives a bit more control over the pet and a few more abilities

The ambush skills is the best part of the spec in my opinion. 

[Abyssisis.3971]

1 hour ago, Sansar.1302 said:

It should not be a pet spec beyond that it gives a bit more control over the pet and a few more abilities

The ambush skills is the best part of the spec in my opinion. 

The ambush part is a bandaid fix for bad design. It should be kitten off and untamed should be reworked.

Ambush should have gone on a different spec, a ranger stealth spec of sorts and it would have made more sense being a ranger version of a thief’s stealth attack. We gain ambush skills whenever we gain stealth.

[Mell.4873]

Honestly the best answer is you just use everything.

I personally use Untamed for Dueling or small Zerg clashes. You don't really need mobility when you can teleport it and just root everyone in place. Even chasing is a breeze with both teleports (pet one). 

Druid is for full Zerg clashes and I follow a similar principle to Untamed. Charge in to put down tones of AoE, use Glyph of the Stars to prevent my own death then Ancestral grace away.

Soulbeast is just my infamous duel Longbow build for siting on walls or plinking Zergs who don't want to break up and instead just stack. 

[Mell.4873]

10 hours ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

The ambush part is a bandaid fix for bad design. It should be kitten off and untamed should be reworked.

Ambush should have gone on a different spec, a ranger stealth spec of sorts and it would have made more sense being a ranger version of a thief’s stealth attack. We gain ambush skills whenever we gain stealth.

I would have liked flip skills for each weapon but honestly that would probably be to op. Ambushs are the next best thing I guess. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Idk about you all, but kitten is the Unleash mechanic a piano to use when I want to time it with ambushes and hammer CC/dmg double casts.

I like complicated specs, but I think Untamed can get away with Ambush attacks on weapons swap (nice way to chain 2 ambushes and improve your strips/dmg without excessive clicking). Ofc that would require each weapon to have a separate ambush CD.

[BadSanta.6527]

Just give the untame the mechanist treatment 

3 trait line that change f1-f3 in the unleash pet , also give unleash pet break bar

[Avatar.3568]

Its still the best Ranger PvP Spec idk about WvW, but in PvP it bonks

[Zaret.1450]

On 1/21/2023 at 8:02 AM, Mell.4873 said:

I would have liked flip skills for each weapon but honestly that would probably be to op. Ambushs are the next best thing I guess. 

I dont think that would be op at all, i mean you can just make it so the skills dont do that much dmg, as they are aoe and you can trait them to rip boons, at most they would make untamed be able to have the same role as a necro or a mesmer on a wvw zerg, as for pve, well you could do "ambushes" to just do less single target dmg, and as FF and other things like pets should be looked at, if pets become fairly better, FF is reworked just enought for it to not be broken, and FS for example is also a bit more reliable you can maintain a balance.

Untamed needs a fairly decent amount of changes, both nerfs and buffs, and making ambushes be unleashed skills, placed on probably the 2 skill of each weapon, is a good idea to make them less bothersome , cuality of life you could say, and would open more roles for ranger players, like a base, where then pet changes, FF, FS, and numeric changes can work on to balance the ckass properly.

[Zaret.1450]

On 1/22/2023 at 4:54 AM, BadSanta.6527 said:

Just give the untame the mechanist treatment 

3 trait line that change f1-f3 in the unleash pet , also give unleash pet break bar

For that youd need beastmastery and nature magic to be changed too, remember that pet traits are split in those 2 lines, instead id condense pet related traits in beastmastery, i mean it would be kinda mec threatment but for the whole ranger class.

pet stats, boons, etc all condensed on beastmastery, also ranger has signets, sigbet of reguvenation has a passive heal and active transfers your condis to the pet, if the passive was sharing boons, as we already have traits for passive healing, we could just call it signet of simbiosis and have a full mec threatment.

Imfine if its a skill or a trait but pets need better boon access, and if we have a way that works in mec, and to be fair mec is a, say 2.0 pet, then its not bad to just implement the upgraded version.

[Copyright.9082]

Don't you dare rework untamed in pvp. It's the most beautiful class ever created. 

 

Do w/e you want in pve/wvw idc, just split the changes. 

[Yasai.3549]

I thought Untamed worked pretty well with zerging or structured small scale. Yes it's not some gg OP Bunny Thumper but it's pretty good for frontlining if you like just running together with the group and fronting like a beast. I mean cmon, it has boon rip, projectile hate, debuffs, CC.