Virtuoso changes

[Phewlm.3148]

Virtuoso is doing well in pve, but I would like it to be more rewarding in pvp. By all means, it is good in a 1v1 or 1vX, but most of your damage unlocks from gaining blades and boons by blocking or dodging attacks, which feels bad when you are in a prolonged skirmish and are not targeted. It is also rather annoying to play against with the plethora of i-frames. Here are some suggestions which you might agree or disagree with. Feel free to criticize or add own suggestions.

 

Goals: Improve ranged dagger usage, reduce invuln and reliability on dodging/blocking to deal dmg.

 

1. Let dagger 2 work like untamed's longbow ambush multishot to increase usability from range.
2. Dagger 3 should have an optional starting location and direction. (Think League of Legends Viktor's laser, E ability)
3. Dagger 3 should have an additional effect like cripple added to it.
4. Bladeturn requiem should no longer block, but have massively increased damage and add one blade per tick.
5. Infinite forge should give a blade every 2 seconds. It is already vastly inferior to the two other options.
6. Phantasmal blade: Make blade from phantasm attack baseline and increase boons from the trait, like i.e. might gain.
7. Make bladesong dissonance aoe ground targeted. Less projectiles.
8. Give more blade generation to other weapons. 

 

What are your thoughts?

 

 

 

[dead.7638]

Dagger I will agree needs major buffs and a utility function to one of the skills, like root would improve the aoe skills on virtuoso, or allow more control of the skills themselves with directional option..   I won’t use the thing as all the other options give better sustain and consistent dps where dagger can completely miss your target.   The range of dagger is also underwhelming.   The whole dagger set up is underwhelming.

[Infusion.7149]

They are supposedly fixing the unblockable on psychic riposte. Without the unblockable it is more or less projectile on everything.

I would rather virtuoso lose distortion instead of bladeturn requiem losing block.

[Downstate.4697]

Virtuoso is already good in a 1v1. It just gets out rotated too easily.  Maybe  in a meta where everyone isn’t a dps it could work as a side noder

[Mell.4873]

The only one I agree with is Infinite Forge since most benchmarks dont use it. 

Otherwise Virtuoso in PvP is in an amazing position and it will only be stronger with the upcoming changes.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Mell.4873

[apharma.3741]

Dagger needs both skill 2 and 3 reworking entirely, they are terrible.
Dagger auto needs a major damage buff from 0.35 to 0.55 at the very least and the flurry thing is dumb.
Phantasmal Blades - these should remove or steal a boon on hit, better yet make blade skills also remove a boon too. Also it should happen when a phantasm becomes a clone not when they successfully complete an attack.
Jagged Mind needs to be PvE numbers everywhere and increase the healing from it to 10%. Remember mesmer has mostly torment and confusion so it doesn't actually heal a lot.
Infinite Forge - sure every 2s but maybe 2 blades every 3s might be better as it will be almost as much as psychic riposte but more reliable.
Remove Distortion from Viruoso it never needed it.

Do not agree with Bladesong return, if anything the circling blades should go or increase in damage significantly.
Bladesong Dissonance should be baseline unblockable and pierce, then it might be good.
Bladesongs should be able to be cast behind you, that's all, same cast time, same animation time.
Returning Edge range increase to 900 and 0.5s CD, I'd say cleanse a condition too but aren't we trying to pretend this isn't a carbon copy of thief?
 

The spec has potential but not with the current clownshow that decided these numbers for it or mechanics.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

4 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Jagged Mind needs to be PvE numbers everywhere and increase the healing from it to 10%. Remember mesmer has mostly torment and confusion so it doesn't actually heal a lot.

This trait is related to the Bleeding caused by blade crits. It does a huge amount of healing on full Condi Virtuoso. Would it be cool if it was buffed, sure, but in PvE increasing the heal is really not necessary. 

[semak.7481]

8 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

What is so difficult for you to understand that we are talking about PvP modes?

Leave him alone, hes on sacred mission of farming confused emotes.

Virtuoso needs a huge rework:

1. Rebalance everything around 3 blades.
2. Do something about bladesongs cast times/face requirement.
3. Remove unblockable trait and make bladesongs not count as projectiles but blockable.
4. Complete rework of the dagger
5. Pump longer fury durations into traits, current ones - sucks big time, other classes for w/e reason can bath in fury, but a class that benefits from the fury as minor elite trait get ~3s fury, who came up with these numbers idk

[Mell.4873]

36 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

What is so difficult for you to understand that we are talking about PvP modes?

First comment was both and my second comment was about PvP.

14 minutes ago, semak.7481 said:

Leave him alone, hes on sacred mission of farming confused emotes.

Virtuoso needs a huge rework:

1. Rebalance everything around 3 blades.
2. Do something about bladesongs cast times/face requirement.
3. Remove unblockable trait and make bladesongs not count as projectiles but blockable.
4. Complete rework of the dagger
5. Pump longer fury durations into traits, current ones - sucks big time, other classes for w/e reason can bath in fury, but a class that benefits from the fury as minor elite trait get ~3s fury, who came up with these numbers idk

It's more like I don't leave, most people get ostracized by this forum. Everyone I talk to on Reddit or in game mostly agrees with me.

The only place this pessimism exists is on this Forum, in game it's a different story.

 

A perfect example is Virtuoso which is an amazing duelist, I watch endless videos of people Roaming in WvW with it. It's only going to get stronger with the upcoming update, my wife will love it since she mains Mesmer.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Mell.4873

[apharma.3741]

On 2/11/2023 at 10:33 PM, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

This trait is related to the Bleeding caused by blade crits. It does a huge amount of healing on full Condi Virtuoso. Would it be cool if it was buffed, sure, but in PvE increasing the heal is really not necessary. 

Sure but it's useless everywhere else. If need be have the healing lower in PvE, it's PvE, no-one really cares as long as it's not soloing a world or raid boss. Just check out Hizen's open world stuff for how broken other specs have been over time.

[Phewlm.3148]

In pvp 75% of your blade generation comes from blocking attacks. I'm not saying virtuoso is bad in every scenario, but I think it should be less reliant on blocking and dodging for damage in pvp.

 

I'm not sure why people think that "a good benchmark = no point in trying to improve the profession"... Improving functionality of a profession should come first, then look at the dmg numbers. 

 

The dagger is an odd ranged weapon that works best in melee. Which is why I proposed simple changes to make dagger skills 2 and 3 actually usable from range. More complex changes that fixes these are ofc welcome too.

 

Projectile hate is also the bane of virtuoso's existence. I'd like it to be less reliant on projectiles and block/dodge workarounds. 

[Waffles.5632]

5 hours ago, semak.7481 said:

Leave him alone, hes on sacred mission of farming confused emotes.

Virtuoso needs a huge rework:

1. Rebalance everything around 3 blades.
2. Do something about bladesongs cast times/face requirement.
3. Remove unblockable trait and make bladesongs not count as projectiles but blockable.
4. Complete rework of the dagger
5. Pump longer fury durations into traits, current ones - sucks big time, other classes for w/e reason can bath in fury, but a class that benefits from the fury as minor elite trait get ~3s fury, who came up with these numbers idk

If these changes were made, I would instantly play Virtu. One can dream. 🥲

[apharma.3741]

On 2/13/2023 at 9:32 AM, Phewlm.3148 said:

In pvp 75% of your blade generation comes from blocking attacks. I'm not saying virtuoso is bad in every scenario, but I think it should be less reliant on blocking and dodging for damage in pvp.

 

I'm not sure why people think that "a good benchmark = no point in trying to improve the profession"... Improving functionality of a profession should come first, then look at the dmg numbers. 

 

The dagger is an odd ranged weapon that works best in melee. Which is why I proposed simple changes to make dagger skills 2 and 3 actually usable from range. More complex changes that fixes these are ofc welcome too.

 

Projectile hate is also the bane of virtuoso's existence. I'd like it to be less reliant on projectiles and block/dodge workarounds. 

Down to a few things:
1. Bladesongs are worse at 2 or 3 blades almost universally.
2. No clones so in condition builds you actually do less damage.
3. The above necessitates the need to generate 2-4 blades in the same time frame as you would normally get 1-2 clones.
Essentially it's reliant on blocks because the other traits aren't competitive in the slightest for competitive play. If infinite forge was 2 blades every 3s in combat you would a less spike and more consistent bladesong shatter cadence. It may make for a bruiser build.

People don't think there's "no point in trying to improve the profession" for no reason, the devs don't listen to good suggestions, they don't listen to how some things need to disappear from mesmer either because they want them as justification for keeping the class weak or they just don't play it.

Dagger needs reworking entirely but it's auto is worse than other ranged auto in damage, that is the truth.

Projectile hate is the bane of all ranged classes, mesmer however has greatsword that dgaf about projectile hate. They also have a trait to make baldesongs unblockable, yes it becomes a defacto choice but part of that is the other options are just bad as mentioned earlier. In general the traits are bad.

[Mell.4873]

On 2/13/2023 at 10:32 PM, Phewlm.3148 said:

In pvp 75% of your blade generation comes from blocking attacks. I'm not saying virtuoso is bad in every scenario, but I think it should be less reliant on blocking and dodging for damage in pvp.

 

I'm not sure why people think that "a good benchmark = no point in trying to improve the profession"... Improving functionality of a profession should come first, then look at the dmg numbers. 

 

The dagger is an odd ranged weapon that works best in melee. Which is why I proposed simple changes to make dagger skills 2 and 3 actually usable from range. More complex changes that fixes these are ofc welcome too.

 

Projectile hate is also the bane of virtuoso's existence. I'd like it to be less reliant on projectiles and block/dodge workarounds. 

It has only gotten stronger with the recent patch where the Teleport can give you an Aegis stack if traited.

[Salt Mode.3780]

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

It has only gotten stronger with the recent patch where the Teleport can give you an Aegis stack if traited.

First off you will never use blink in a PvE scenario when you are mostly stacked when fighting bosses. 

2nd Signets will always benefit more in PvE in the long run because you are not using aegis to get blades you are using bleed stacks/crits.

3rd this is also a terrible change because superspeed will always be better then aegis due to unblockable being a thing. Super speed ignores all combat cripples which allows you to disengage much faster then 1 aegis that can be popped with almost anything. Superspeed is the reason why FA eles are still a thing. Remove Superspeed from the Air traitline and you will see no one will bother going FA anymore.

Half a year later and you are still posting nonsense when you don't understand Mesmer as a whole enough. Not just Mesmers the game in general.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Salt Mode.3780

[semak.7481]

3 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Half a year later and you are still posting nonsense when you don't understand Mesmer as a whole enough. Not just Mesmers the game in general.

You know better than me he is just a troll in the best case.

Is he getting paid to praise idiotic changes/spread the misinformation about state of the mesmer in general? Who knows

Edited February 15, 2023 by semak.7481

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

First off you will never use blink in a PvE scenario when you are mostly stacked when fighting bosses. 

2nd Signets will always benefit more in PvE in the long run because you are not using aegis to get blades you are using bleed stacks/crits.

3rd this is also a terrible change because superspeed will always be better then aegis due to unblockable being a thing. Super speed ignores all combat cripples which allows you to disengage much faster then 1 aegis that can be popped with almost anything. Superspeed is the reason why FA eles are still a thing. Remove Superspeed from the Air traitline and you will see no one will bother going FA anymore.

Half a year later and you are still posting nonsense when you don't understand Mesmer as a whole enough. Not just Mesmers the game in general.

First off, I meant PvP only.

2nd Signets are amazing in PvE so we agree.

3rd I mean this argument only really applies if you plan on leaving. Virtuoso strength is Dueling and not Roaming (that's Mirage) so Aegis is definitely a buff to this. If you teleport away how much more mobility do you need? Would it not be better to aegis for more Quickness when you engage.

I don't think either of us post coherent messages, my opinions mostly come from the community I play with in game.

34 minutes ago, semak.7481 said:

You know better than me he is just a troll in the best case.

Is he getting paid to praise idiotic changes/spread the misinformation about state of the mesmer in general? Who knows

More like I'm the only one willing to tolerate this forum and tell people the truth about what players think in game. Most new player love Mesmer and have no concept of the history of nerfs, that is what I relay.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Salt Mode.3780]

8 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

First off, I meant PvP only.

2nd Signets are amazing in PvE so we agree.

3rd I mean this argument only really applies if you plan on leaving. Virtuoso strength is Dueling and not Roaming (that's Mirage) so Aegis is definitely a buff to this. If you teleport away how much more mobility do you need? Would it not be better to aegis for more Quickness when you engage.

Aegis will never be stronger then Superspeed this is a fact, even when dueling mobility is a huge factor whether it is to disengage or engage. This change was not only on Virtuoso but Mesmer as a whole. Not to mention if you need blink to effectively proc for Virtuoso you are clearly playing the game wrong. This is not a buff it is a nerf overall for Core, Chrono, and Mirage. Just stop while you are at it...it makes it less embarrassing.

[Mell.4873]

15 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Aegis will never be stronger then Superspeed this is a fact, even when dueling mobility is a huge factor whether it is to disengage or engage. This change was not only on Virtuoso but Mesmer as a whole. Not to mention if you need blink to effectively proc for Virtuoso you are clearly playing the game wrong. This is not a buff it is a nerf overall for Core, Chrono, and Mirage. Just stop while you are at it...it makes it less embarrassing.

I guess we use Blink in different ways, I mostly use in for chasing/engaging players in WvW. If i wanted to escape i would use Viel, super speed with stealth.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Flow.2947]

i think virtuoso gets more and more viable. eg fev 14th balance to Manipulation aegis, aegis on your mantra of concentration... 

What i dont like is that it is all only bases around you unblockable. 

 

degger is not missing much i actually like that weapon. Still i thik it needs little love. Ther is too much projectile hate and it is too predictable to use against it. 

[semak.7481]

57 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Aegis will never be stronger then Superspeed this is a fact, even when dueling mobility is a huge factor whether it is to disengage or engage. This change was not only on Virtuoso but Mesmer as a whole. Not to mention if you need blink to effectively proc for Virtuoso you are clearly playing the game wrong. This is not a buff it is a nerf overall for Core, Chrono, and Mirage. Just stop while you are at it...it makes it less embarrassing.

Brah, 20% cd reduction... -7s cd is gone forever for nothing.... Arcane thieverly isnt getting reduction as well?

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

More like I'm the only one willing to tolerate this forum and tell people the truth about what players think in game. Most new player love Mesmer and have no concept of the history of nerfs, that is what I relay.

Whatever comes from you is nonsense that has no connection with actual state of things/balance and whatnot, "I saw youtube videos...", "All these nerfs are buffs, its a blessing, the class becomes stronger when its nerfed!". Who is tolerating who?

Quote

I guess we use Blink in different ways, I mostly use in for chasing/engaging players in WvW. If i wanted to escape i would use Viel, super speed with stealth.

Roflmao

Edited February 15, 2023 by semak.7481

[Gesbo.6420]

On 2/11/2023 at 5:50 PM, apharma.3741 said:

Dagger needs both skill 2 and 3 reworking entirely, they are terrible.
Dagger auto needs a major damage buff from 0.35 to 0.55 at the very least and the flurry thing is dumb.
Phantasmal Blades - these should remove or steal a boon on hit, better yet make blade skills also remove a boon too. Also it should happen when a phantasm becomes a clone not when they successfully complete an attack.
Jagged Mind needs to be PvE numbers everywhere and increase the healing from it to 10%. Remember mesmer has mostly torment and confusion so it doesn't actually heal a lot.
Infinite Forge - sure every 2s but maybe 2 blades every 3s might be better as it will be almost as much as psychic riposte but more reliable.
Remove Distortion from Viruoso it never needed it.

Do not agree with Bladesong return, if anything the circling blades should go or increase in damage significantly.
Bladesong Dissonance should be baseline unblockable and pierce, then it might be good.
Bladesongs should be able to be cast behind you, that's all, same cast time, same animation time.
Returning Edge range increase to 900 and 0.5s CD, I'd say cleanse a condition too but aren't we trying to pretend this isn't a carbon copy of thief?
 

The spec has potential but not with the current clownshow that decided these numbers for it or mechanics.

Dagger is the only mesmer weapon that goes against the main pillar of their one handed weapons being that it doesnt have a defencive skill in it. Sword has Blurred frenzy (evade), Scepter has Illusionary Counter(block), even axe, one of f the newer weapons has  Axces of Symetry (evade and break targeting). Dagger is supposed to be damage only and its not even that gread in terms of numbers.

 

Infinite Forge, in my oppinion, needs to have a secondary effect like the other 2 grandmasters. Psychic Reposte gives you the ignore block, Blade song gives you more bleeding damage. Infinite forge gives you blades and blades only. Maybe give it an interaction with the blades from Bladeturn requiem depending on the last blade song casted. 

 

I liked the idea of bladesong requem needning significantly more damage as the 5 max pulses do absolutely nothing for the 100s of blades spinning around you. more over given that you are a pretty stationary target at least be able to win a zone around you.

 

The whole idea that every competetive content needs to be ran with 1 1 1 in virtuoso is beyond lame, it gives you absolutely no ability to theory craft or try new things , the rest of the traits need a huge buff in order for them to feel like they can compete.

[Phewlm.3148]

Yeah, Bladesong requiem is pretty underwhelming. Using more than 1 blade on it feels like a waste. The block is nice, but regardless, the skill needs an update or a rework.

[apharma.3741]

On change that is really needed:
Blades stock out of combat while mounted.