Ah, here we go again

[Tiamat.2037]

Quote

05/11/2021—May 11 Release Notes

Mantras (Mesmer and Firebrand)

We acknowledge that there are significant flaws with the core gameplay innate to mantra skills, and that this problem was exacerbated in Path of Fire™ when we switched mesmer mantras to an ammunition system, creating an incentive to not use the final charge. This is a poor user experience and something we have hoped for a long time to be able to come back and address.

Needing to prepare for combat by using a sequence of skills with a long casting time is not fun, and in most cases, using the final charge of a mantra in combat felt like a mistake. It not only denied your use of the skill for a long time, but it also required you to prepare your mantras again after the cooldown expired. Instead of being rewarding to use, mantras have been a chore; something you need to remember to do every time you change maps or respawn, or deal with after every /gg in a fractal, strike, or raid. Holding your group up while you again prepare each of your mantras never feels great either!

 

During the development of this balance patch, we tried several alternatives, including automatic preparation while out of combat. Ultimately, we found that the best course of action was to simplify the mantra skills and remove the preparation mechanic altogether, as this ensures that we can have consistent behavior between mesmer and firebrand mantras, as well as consistent core functionality between PvE and PvP game modes. As a result, in this balance update, we have decided to rework both mesmer and firebrand mantras into simple ammunition skills.

What this means:

• No more preparing mantras before use. They are always in the "ready" mode, storing up uses.
• Firebrand mantras are no longer stronger on final charge.
• All uses are the same.Mesmer mantras no longer do something on preparing.

I'm done. Discuss.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

On the PVE side the damage of these mantras better be pretty darn high to justify the 2.75 second self-daze that it takes to charge them up.  I preferred the old way because my fuzzy eyes couldn't see the numbers on the mesmer mantras, so I had to guess whether they were charged or not.  

[Yasai.3549]

Honestly if they really wanted the flavour of "preparing spells" they should have reintroduced it with QoL. 

Option 1: When preparing Mantras, have a channeled effect centered on the player during the preparation animation. This can be a short channeled skill which does damage or heals or whatever, or pulsing buffs or conditions. 

Example: When preparing Firebrand's Mantra of Flame, you pulse Burning in a small AoE while you are preparing. 

Option 2: Mantra traits give Stability and Quickness to the caster (bandaid) 
 

 

[Alastor.3054]

If they already knew the mantras are unfun this way then why revert? did they fire the one dev with the brain?

[oOCitadelOo.2381]

They hired someone with an anti-FB slant.

 

[Yutopia.1746]

This reminds me of the time they added the Compact button in the inventory tab and people complained so they removed it and then later someone added it back in and now the button is still there but unusable, just so other developers can see that it has been done before and no one liked it.

Maybe someone needs to add a note to Mantra, "DO NOT CHANGE THE MECHANIC!"

[Gaiawolf.8261]

5 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Option 1: When preparing Mantras, have a channeled effect centered on the player during the preparation animation. This can be a short channeled skill which does damage or heals or whatever, or pulsing buffs or conditions. 

To be honest, this is how I always thought mantras should work in the first place. It makes sense to channel power while chanting, and if it's a pulsing effect during the channel, then you still get partial effect if you get interrupted. 

Then the additional ammo charges are a choice between whether it's better to pulse a smaller effect on demand or burn them all so you can use your powerful channel again after the CD. 

[Buran.3796]

  In PvE doesn't affect me due as a rule I don't run mantras in my FB builds.

  In WvW roaming FB is way behind Willbender, and this change only increase the gap. In PvP the effect is 0 due FB is unsuitable for that game mode, and the change makes the spec even weaker. The need to precast mantras means that in case of dead you're not ready to return to the game after 15 seconds, so you need to arrive later. Nice exytra handicap for a spec with 0 PvP presence.

   Overall very irrelevant changes; since the tome rework I already deleted one of my 3 guardians. One survives due has two crafting skills maxed and the other because remains active in PvP due Willbender.

[Geckoo.6018]

9 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

To be honest, this is how I always thought mantras should work in the first place. It makes sense to channel power while chanting, and if it's a pulsing effect during the channel, then you still get partial effect if you get interrupted. 

Then the additional ammo charges are a choice between whether it's better to pulse a smaller effect on demand or burn them all so you can use your powerful channel again after the CD. 

 

From the perspective of a HFB, that would be better mechanically speaking for sure, but as soon as you have a boon like quickness  attached to mantras then you need to make both choices equally capable of providing enough uptime, because otherwise there is no choice to be made, just as it happens right now. And if it actually provides enough quickness then that has the potential to end up with mantra spam as before the patch, but with a channeled cast every 20-30 seconds, wich is probably better than what we have right now, but still a very weird gameplay choice for how fast paced and fluid the combat is in this game.

In my opinion that is the whole issue. Every other boon and utility provided by mantras does work well with that concept and it has the potential to be more fun when you have to decide when to use certain stuff since that means more player skill involved. But when it comes to quickness is just something that should be provided in the most natural and fluid way having in mind how a spec works, mostly because that's how every other support spec works.

I still think that the focus of decision making on the firebrand spec should be attached to tomes not to mantras.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Geckoo.6018

[otto.5684]

13 hours ago, Alastor.3054 said:

If they already knew the mantras are unfun this way then why revert? did they fire the one dev with the brain?

No, but it seems there is a lot of amnesia, or ignoring feedback when it comes to guardian. We know there was a shuffle in the devs around 2019. It seems the dev who understood most of guardian designs left.

 

There have been a few examples of these with guardian lately. This is cuz these changes are not well thought out.

[Nephalem.8921]

17 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

On the PVE side the damage of these mantras better be pretty darn high to justify the 2.75 second self-daze that it takes to charge them up.  I preferred the old way because my fuzzy eyes couldn't see the numbers on the mesmer mantras, so I had to guess whether they were charged or not.  

Its a 1-2k dps buff for cfb and a massive buff for qfb.

Cfb is expected to reach 42k+ while qfb should be in the 37k range. And guard mains act like its a nerf...

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Its a 1-2k dps buff for cfb and a massive buff for qfb.

Cfb is expected to reach 42k+ while qfb should be in the 37k range. And guard mains act like its a nerf...

Because emotions.

[Nephalem.8921]

18 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Because emotions.

They could have just hovered over flame mantra while having 25might. The last charge has 50k tooltip dmg. The entire skill does 110k damage on a 25sec cd in pve.

The only downside is that you are punished for going down like every other class now.

[Hotride.2187]

2 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Its a 1-2k dps buff for cfb and a massive buff for qfb.

Cfb is expected to reach 42k+ while qfb should be in the 37k range. And guard mains act like its a nerf...

Also you kind of get punished now (again) if you spam mantras without paying any attention. Its still braindead spam for the most part, but somewhat less so when compared to no final charge.

I'm happy to have the final charge back.

[Ashford.8540]

If they wanted to add a version of old mantra firebrand without downright gutting charges across the board without a severe penalty (because the third charge and inevitable downstate from having to wait for a cooldown and then a cast-timer) then the premise is actually simple.

 

The mantra has 3 charge states, you can cast it now for immediate use OR you can keep charging it for a charge 2 varient, and if there is a significant window of opportunity, charge it all the way to charge 3 for a big payout. This is such a simple fix but no, revert back to an old system that did not work at all no matter how many times the dev team made adjustments. Oh well, I am just going leave the class parked and play rev so I can both do decent damage and stay alive.

[Sagedurk.7358]

5 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Its a 1-2k dps buff for cfb and a massive buff for qfb.

Cfb is expected to reach 42k+ while qfb should be in the 37k range. And guard mains act like its a nerf...

I'm not surprised if qfb now benches higher than both DH and power willbender

They wanted to fix power guardian, yet this happens..

And alac willbender only got a bandaid solution with this patch..

[Solstice.5790]

8 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Cfb is expected to reach 42k+ while qfb should be in the 37k range. And guard mains act like its a nerf...

Haven't seen benches yet, so I'm not interested in expectations or should be's. I also don't see that many power deadeye dps in raids or strikes, so there seems to be some other element involved...

What I have seen is prep-animations get interrupted repeatedly in actual encounters, and 3ish second Houdini handwaving (per mantra!) preventing any weapon damage to the target (thus also voiding the F1 passive or weapon condi application).
And if you don't use all charges (ignoring the elite), it is a flat ammo nerf.

Maybe guard mains are just on to something there...

[Infusion.7149]

4 hours ago, Solstice.5790 said:

Haven't seen benches yet, so I'm not interested in expectations or should be's. I also don't see that many power deadeye dps in raids or strikes, so there seems to be some other element involved...

What I have seen is prep-animations get interrupted repeatedly in actual encounters, and 3ish second Houdini handwaving (per mantra!) preventing any weapon damage to the target (thus also voiding the F1 passive or weapon condi application).
And if you don't use all charges (ignoring the elite), it is a flat ammo nerf.

Maybe guard mains are just on to something there...

Every experienced guardian that played before the mantra reworks has no issue with it. It is the people that picked up guardian after mantras had no drawback and became fake instant shouts with ammo that have an issue.

It is not a 3 second cast even without quickness, the base cast is 2.25s. If you are casting it without quickness (since you mention encounter it is PVE I am guessing) then you are doing it wrong. If you are constantly interrupted even though you can cast it while moving that is also user error, the only way that would happen is if you are using it with a higher priority skill overriding it or if you dodge.

Also it is not an ammo nerf since the ammo cooldown is still 12s base cooldown before Weighty Terms.

Moreover if you are on healbrand you should not even have to cast all your mantras as they are prepared as you enter the instance. There is functionally no reason to spam mantra of lore in most cases for example (the first two casts remove 2 conditions per use), neither is there any universal reason to spam mantra of liberation unless you are completely out of stability/aegis. If you are using mantra of solace for quickness the only time you would use the last cast for aegis is if something potentially lethal is about to hit , you have no aegis (when now courage is always available so unbroken lines is easily accessed), and the choice is quickness uptime or down state.

If what you are complaining about is a universal issue people would not ask for healbrand anymore in PvE/WvW, period. Instead it is grossly inflating your issue into a general issue.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Antina.5973]

I'll admit I fell in love in firebrand because of mantras (the pre may 2021 ones), and making them insta casts without channel nor last charge was both boring and in a way insanely OP. They were powerful insta-cast and now there is at least some weight to pressing last charge, and if you wanna squeeze more DPS you have to plan around those channels as well. And for those throwing numbers around, it's pretty easy to just swap a few numbers around for lower ones, we all know that. It's not easy to make a spec feel good or a mechanic feel worth playing with.

[zeyeti.8347]

Also is it me , but Weighty Terms doesnt seems to have the -20% cd reduction if the last charge is used , the tooltip says "mantra charges" , is it a bug or is it designed so ? if it is mend to stay like that , i am even less eager to use my last charge on any mantra , the buff and the 1 page refill isnt powerfull enough to justify a 25 o 30 sec cd and especially a 2 sec cast time ...

[hash.8462]

1 hour ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Also is it me , but Weighty Terms doesnt seems to have the -20% cd reduction if the last charge is used , the tooltip says "mantra charges" , is it a bug or is it designed so ? if it is mend to stay like that , i am even less eager to use my last charge on any mantra , the buff and the 1 page refill isnt powerfull enough to justify a 25 o 30 sec cd and especially a 2 sec cast time ...

Works as intended, it give -20% only on charge recovery not on the CD of the skill if you use the last charge.

[Ashford.8540]

6 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Every experienced guardian that played before the mantra reworks has no issue with it. It is the people that picked up guardian after mantras had no drawback and became fake instant shouts with ammo that have an issue.

It is not a 3 second cast even without quickness, the base cast is 2.25s. If you are casting it without quickness (since you mention encounter it is PVE I am guessing) then you are doing it wrong. If you are constantly interrupted even though you can cast it while moving that is also user error, the only way that would happen is if you are using it with a higher priority skill overriding it or if you dodge.

Also it is not an ammo nerf since the ammo cooldown is still 12s base cooldown before Weighty Terms.

Moreover if you are on healbrand you should not even have to cast all your mantras as they are prepared as you enter the instance. There is functionally no reason to spam mantra of lore in most cases for example (the first two casts remove 2 conditions per use), neither is there any universal reason to spam mantra of liberation unless you are completely out of stability/aegis. If you are using mantra of solace for quickness the only time you would use the last cast for aegis is if something potentially lethal is about to hit , you have no aegis (when now courage is always available so unbroken lines is easily accessed), and the choice is quickness uptime or down state.

If what you are complaining about is a universal issue people would not ask for healbrand anymore in PvE/WvW, period. Instead it is grossly inflating your issue into a general issue.

You know what this sounds like in PvE terms? Conquest players.

 

"like actually you don't need any new pvp mode because conquest OMG conquest is actually so much better you don't need any other mode"

 

Gotta love the brain rot of people so in favor of such a counter intuitive features even when it's leading to a decline in pvp, cause PvP is doing so well right? with 2 broken classes? no new features in X amount of years? oh ya old mantras are so great. conqx players man oof.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Ashford.8540

[Buran.3796]

20 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Its a 1-2k dps buff for cfb and a massive buff for qfb.

Cfb is expected to reach 42k+ while qfb should be in the 37k range. And guard mains act like its a nerf...

   Didn't known PvE FB was in need. My complaints (as a non-guardian main) is that the spec in PvP remains as a ballast. FB has been dead there for well over two years, and the changes didn't do any better.

[Solstice.5790]

6 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Every experienced guardian that played before the mantra reworks has no issue with it. It is the people that picked up guardian after mantras had no drawback and became fake instant shouts with ammo that have an issue.

It is not a 3 second cast even without quickness, the base cast is 2.25s. If you are casting it without quickness (since you mention encounter it is PVE I am guessing) then you are doing it wrong. If you are constantly interrupted even though you can cast it while moving that is also user error, the only way that would happen is if you are using it with a higher priority skill overriding it or if you dodge.

Also it is not an ammo nerf since the ammo cooldown is still 12s base cooldown before Weighty Terms.

Moreover if you are on healbrand you should not even have to cast all your mantras as they are prepared as you enter the instance. There is functionally no reason to spam mantra of lore in most cases for example (the first two casts remove 2 conditions per use), neither is there any universal reason to spam mantra of liberation unless you are completely out of stability/aegis. If you are using mantra of solace for quickness the only time you would use the last cast for aegis is if something potentially lethal is about to hit , you have no aegis (when now courage is always available so unbroken lines is easily accessed), and the choice is quickness uptime or down state.

If what you are complaining about is a universal issue people would not ask for healbrand anymore in PvE/WvW, period. Instead it is grossly inflating your issue into a general issue.

 

If you accepted opinions other than yours you would have noticed some amount of forum posts where experienced guardians state that they don't want the revert back to the old mantra system. I also wouldn't consider myself new to the class at ~4.5k hours on it.
It is true though that I don't understand in what way moving, which you do anyways during combat, prevents being interrupted by dazes / ccs - unless you dodge them of course, which as you said, also interrupts it.

Also, it is an ammo nerf if you don't use the last charge to prevent having the prep cast, which was a common playstyle before (according to experienced guardians).
And no average healbrand was spamming mantras anyways because it was pointless, plus that spec can afford to prep mantras again for 2.25s minus quickness. Bursting mantras, as you're aware, is done by QFB and CFB, 2 specs that don't really want to stop attacking with their weapons.
What I'm complaining about is an unnecessarily clunky system that was already done away with. You're the one inflating it to "people would not ask for healbrand anymore in PvE/WvW, period".
And I'm sorry it's not just my personal issue, if you need help finding the threads let me know.

[Infusion.7149]

12 minutes ago, Solstice.5790 said:

 

If you accepted opinions other than yours you would have noticed some amount of forum posts where experienced guardians state that they don't want the revert back to the old mantra system. I also wouldn't consider myself new to the class at ~4.5k hours on it.
It is true though that I don't understand in what way moving, which you do anyways during combat, prevents being interrupted by dazes / ccs - unless you dodge them of course, which as you said, also interrupts it.

Also, it is an ammo nerf if you don't use the last charge to prevent having the prep cast, which was a common playstyle before (according to experienced guardians).
And no average healbrand was spamming mantras anyways because it was pointless, plus that spec can afford to prep mantras again for 2.25s minus quickness. Bursting mantras, as you're aware, is done by QFB and CFB, 2 specs that don't really want to stop attacking with their weapons.
What I'm complaining about is an unnecessarily clunky system that was already done away with. You're the one inflating it to "people would not ask for healbrand anymore in PvE/WvW, period".
And I'm sorry it's not just my personal issue, if you need help finding the threads let me know.

So you are complaining about being interrupted which does not even put it on full cooldown, got it. I could even use mantras in the middle of a group in WvW while being hit by people, so the idea that mantras are impossible to use is really ludicrous. Do not want a revert and have a good reasoning is a completely separate issue.

Considering I was able to use this iteration of mantras in PvE as well as WvW in the past (and now) and firebrand existed before the mantras became glorified shouts, it seems like you need more time using mantras even with your supposed 4.5K hours on it. If that is actually true really shame on you. That is not even including the fact that the main period firebrand was used in PvP had this state of mantras albeit with some longer condition durations.

If you want to disregard healbrand which has the most mantras then you are only looking at CQB (mantra of solace, potence, and flame) and CFB. Seeing how mantra of flame was the first thing to be dropped when a utility such as reflect or stab was required it means that if your only concern is mantra of flame it is almost meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

The last charge on mantra of flame now is stronger again as stated above and mathed out by Nephalem. Plus the only mantra used to its full extent on CFB is mantra of flame, there is no reason to use mantra of solace out of the blue. So your complaint is about a single skill in essence.

Saying something is clunky is an excuse to not use facts. Arenanet stated the main issue they identified was people did not want to charge mantras in PvE at the start of an encounter (similar to the gg for astral force problem), which they do not have to.

Feel free to link the threads by people that actually started playing firebrand before 2021 and aren't just complaining because it is "clunky" to them.