Ranger condi build - poison vs bleeding

[Jurij.4625]

Hello,

 

could someone advise which condition is better to focus on as a condi build? Bleeding or Poison? I Play Soulbeast and I want to use shortbow (I have chuka and champawat and I'm in love with it). Currently I'm playing kind of a hybrid build, with Krait runes and sharpening stones, but I am tempted to try more focus on poison with the poison traitline and Thorn runes.

 

What would you suggest? The only Endgame content I play is Fractals and I want to get into strike missions, but NO raids.

 

Thanks for your valuable oppinion,

 

Kind regards, J.

[Zaret.1450]

As far as i know bleeding does a bit more dmg, while poison has a kind of lowering healing effect, even then it also depends on wich content you play most.

For pve id say look around for snow crows builds and go to their discord to ask, there was an old camp sb soulbeast build i think, and in pve some bosses like twin largos force you to use jacaranda for the confusion, more than force its more of you get more dmg with it.

For wvw look at roaming builds and remember to get some survival too just in case.

pvp i have no idea sry.

For runes... i think the best ones are the ones already being used on builds, maybe look on condi necro builds, condi ranger builds and maybe daredevil? those are the only builds i think use poison and bleeding as main dots.

[Hellion.2360]

2 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

... in pve some bosses like twin largos force you to use jacaranda for the confusion, more than force its more of you get more dmg with it....

iboga, not floating root monster.

rune of thorns is BiS for CONDI atm since it caps u at nearly 100% poison duration and u apply a high amount of poison dmg with d/d + sb.

I won't recommend thorns rune for hybrid assuming u running axe/axe and axes ofc dont have any kind of poison.

In the end, who cares wtf u run in normal strikes (CMs are a different story).

for fractals same as I said above, who cares for normal fractals, plus, decent CM groups probably wont take you (as condi or hybrid) even if u can dish out decent numbers.

[Jurij.4625]

I really love the shortbow and double daggers. I know that Axe/Axe is more powerful, I just can't enjoy that set that much. Although I have tried Axe/Axe Untamed condi and it's really powerful. I Can't decide now 😅

[enkeny.6937]

Ranger can apply more bleeding than poison. (alone)
If you are in group, sharing vulture stance will apply your poison when others make a hit.

you can also try different combination of sigil of venom/agony/malice with rune of thorns/krait/afflicted/nightmare/tempest
(try some combinations in build editor if you don't have legendary sigils/runes)
with food, you can easily max out both poison and bleeding duration. 

[Hellion.2360]

6 hours ago, Jurij.4625 said:

I really love the shortbow and double daggers. I know that Axe/Axe is more powerful, I just can't enjoy that set that much.

I support any non-axe build, that weapon is broken af and the only reason power slb is viable.
 

i suggest u check snowcrows condi slb build, it uses precisely the weapons u want and IMO quite fun.

https://snowcrows.com/en/builds/ranger/soulbeast/condition-soulbeast

[Mell.4873]

Don't listen to anyone here, it is poison so switch to Rune of Thorns and then use a Bleed duration sigil.

Its most boils down to how many poison stacks the Dagger and Shortbow can apply especially at close range. Not to mention the extra damage and healing you get from Predators Cunning so win win. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Jurij.4625]

Thanks for all the replies!

I tried a build with runes of Thorns, Wilderness Survival line, and SB & D/D and I like it so much! I also used +20% bleed Sigil and both poison and bleeding are very high. SB also gives me some survivability in open world with range and built in evade. I think I will stick to it. Currently I'm farming map currencies for ascended Viper trinkets 😁

[Fenris.8563]

I don't know whether or not picking 1 type of condi damage is the way to go for Ranger (or in general).

For me personally, when I was making my current condi build,  it doesn't seem to make sense to focus on 1 type of condi damage.  I utilize both poison and bleed.  Obviously you can add fire into the equation if you want to go that route.   For me, it's mostly about applying as much condi at once as possible to bring people down fast. 

I'm playing axe,axe / dagger,dagger  and I am absolutely loving it.  My goal with this build was to have sustain to survive, do good enough DPS to be useful, and have versatility what I'm doing in 5v5, and hopefully take advantage of players not ready to defend so much condi damage.   Which usually seems to be the case.  Only came across ppl prepared for this like once or twice and that was well into the match so they likely made adjustments.  I also wanted to retain mobility as much as possible.  While I could have more mobility if I switched one of my main hands to sword, I don't want to because I have enough with this build and I prefer the weapons I'm using.   You can also utilize pet commands for more mobility if necessary.  

 This is what my current build is, but keep in mind I'm at work.  Not 100% sure on the rune, but the rest is accurate.  I also am still in the process of trying different pets over time to see what I like, but so far I think this has been the best for me.  Although it's situational.   I've used pets that remove conditions instead of heal and that's worked really well.   This has also worked really well though.   I love the build.  I feel like it fits a gameplay style that I want to play (I am personally not a fan of the short bow),  and I can absolutely delete most people I come across in a few seconds or so, depending,  

My main issue so far, is not having a stun.  However, that can easily be corrected by using different pets.   I like to keep at least 1 'deadly' archetype pet to boost condi damage.


http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POABcehjlZwCZPsI2JW6WuPvKm6B-z54WIFUApEB9mC6NAA

[Hellion.2360]

On 2/24/2023 at 9:04 AM, Mell.4873 said:

Don't listen to anyone here, it is poison so switch to Rune of Thorns and then use a Bleed duration sigil.

Its most boils down to how many poison stacks the Dagger and Shortbow can apply especially at close range. Not to mention the extra damage and healing you get from Predators Cunning so win win. 

dont listen to anyone here, no exception pls! 🤡

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Since this doesn't seem to be about Hybrid:

For PvE: Poison; Condition Soulbeast Build (Instanced PvE) - Hardstuck

For PvP: Bleeding (either immobeast or immob druid)

Edited February 26, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Jurij.4625]

Thanks for all the replies 🙌 As I said, I play only Fractals besides open word, so I will stick with poison SB & D/D build that some of you suggested. I love it and for me the Shortbow is so much more satisfying than Axe/Axe ☺️

[asterix.9614]

Why not both, normally you would take the trait that removes conditions and gives fury when using survival skills in wvw and pvp, but in pve you can instead use the poison master trait. Poison deals more damage, voila

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I'm confused as to why you would have to chose one or the other, do you not have access to Viper's gear? Your condition duration should always be 100% or you're losing massive amounts of damage from the burning on Bonfire and Flame Trap. I know the older meta build is bleeding only but its quite dated from back before the changes to Ranger weapons' coefficients.

Edited March 7, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Jurij.4625]

10 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

I'm confused as to why you would have to chose one or the other, do you not have access to Viper's gear? Your condition duration should always be 100% or you're losing massive amounts of damage from the burning on Bonfire and Flame Trap. I know the older meta build is bleeding only but its quite dated from back before the changes to Ranger weapons' coefficients.

The choice was mostly with (Thorns or Krait) and weapon choice (SB & D/D or Axes). I have viper gear but I can't constantly change runes (I use exotic armor, not legendary) so the dilemma was there. 

Second difference is in the trait line (Wilderness Survival or Beast Mastery) - this I can change anytime so that was not so much of an issue.

With current Setup I have 100% poison duration and around 80% bleeding duration without any food or utility.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 2/22/2023 at 6:15 AM, Jurij.4625 said:

could someone advise which condition is better to focus on as a condi build? Bleeding or Poison?

Ranger deals far more bleeding damage than it does poison. Even on a Soulbeast builds with Vulture Stance, the ratio of bleed damage to poison damage is like 4 to 1.

The way that you go about allocating gear or trait mods towards this however, depends on what mode the build is for.

1. PvE DPS builds you want to begin with Viper gear which adds to all condis. From there out, there are lots of different ways to maximize your condi outputs. The first priority is that you want bleeds to cap 100% bleed duration and not go over, otherwise you're wasting mods that could go to poison and burn, or generally higher flat condi damage. Remember to consider your mods from traits that increase condi duration that are not reflected in your hero panel stats. If you are using GM Skirm Shortbow +10% duration on dodge with the GM Soulbeast trait that grants +10% duration vs. opponents lower health than you, this is effectively a +20% duration. <- At this point you only need your hero panel to be showing 80% bleed duration for your build to be benefitting 100% bleed duration. This means that you could do things like sacrifice some Viper pieces for Sinister pieces, which will grant higher flat condi damage, or drop Rune Of Krait for something like Rune Of Afflicted or Nightmare or Lich Runes.
2. WvW condi builds you want Celestial stats on all of your gear for every reason mentionable, whether it's roaming or zerging. But you do not want to pump your expertise or condi durations on any condi past about 50%, which the Cele gear will bring you very close to anyway. This is because in competitive mods especially wvw, people have so much cleanse and cleanse so frequently that having expertise boosted condis is often a wasted stat. Pay attention to what I am explaining to you here. Let's say you have an attack that does a 4 second bleed. If you had 100% bleed duration it makes the bleed 8 seconds. But you are fighting something like a good Cele Harb or Mirage or anything else that also has antitoxin runes. If most opponents roaming around in wvw are very seriously cleansing 2 to 4 condis per 2 to 4 seconds, there is no reason to invest into massive amount of condition duration boosting because they cleanse your condis before that expertise/duration boosting can deal its damage. At that point hard bonus to flat condition damage is better. What you are aiming at in wvw or even pvp, is to boost the bulk of your small condi applications juuuust enough to stick for about 2 to 3 seconds so that they become dangerous enough for the opponent to need to cleanse. For example, Ranger Shortbow 1 spam or Sharpened Edges on crit bleeds boosted from 1s to 2s, is literally double the damage and these procs equate to at least 50% of your potential damage output. THESE are worth boosting a bit to that 2 to 3 second margin. But worrying about boosting something that is already a 10s condi so that it is 20s, is pointless in competitive modes. People will cleanse a 10s condi before it does all its ticks. At this point, you just want larger flat condi damage so that the small time the condi sticks before it is cleansed, does more damage. TLDR EXPLANATION -> In WvW on any Condi Ranger variant, you want to aim at all Cele stats and around 50% condi duration. From there out, you want to aim at Might stacking, which is going to yield far greater damage output than expertise/duration stacks. I highly advise looking into Rune Of Aristocracy and use of Sigils Of Strength, on both your Shortbow side and Axe side. The Might stacks will stick forever and allow you to casually bloat up to 25 stacks for a strong hybrid power and condi side to the build. Not going to go all into this here, but do not use Sword or Dagger. You need to be using Axe and Torch if you want a strong Condition Ranger build. Sword & Dagger pepega rolling around is an illusion that makes you think you're dodging things, but they have 0 offensive pressure on those sides and all they do for you is delay your lose in the combat. With Sword & Dagger you won't have the offensive pressure required to ever actually kill any decent roamer. Axe/Torch maintaining offensive pressure is actually more defensive than Sword & Dagger, as it does not allow 9s intervals for the opponent to free cycle sustain resets.
3. PvP condis - Here we don't have a lot of options due to gear limitations. On any Condi Ranger variant in pvp, you definitely need to focus on the bleeds and only the bleeds. There simply are not enough options due to limitations and also splits in gear stat effectiveness to focus on several condis. For example, Krait in pve/wvw is +50% bleed but in pvp it is only +20%. The effects that do +% to all condis are ridiculously low and virtually useless to take at all. Your best bet is to utilize the Agony sigils which in pvp do +25% bleed. From there out, allow your traits to handle getting bleeds to roughly that +50% mark, and then use your other options to bolster hard flat condi damage as well as defensive values. You cannot run glass cannon condi burst in pvp, it doesn't work. You will need to invest in considerable defensive effects as Condi Rangers are slow compared to power variants that have lots of mobility skills and stealth in smokescale mechanics. Heads up for you, Druid is and always has been the strongest platform for Condi Ranger variants. Click the link in my signature, slick on the all videos or guides, click on the Rabid Burst Druid guide for spvp.

 

Btw, be careful who you listen to in these forums. In just this thread alone, I am reading so much misinformation. Also keep in mind that what is listed on metasites is not always the best build or practical to use at all. Do enough self-research and build testing, you'll see what I mean.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Poison does more damage than bleed so def recommend focusing on that if you are looking for focus on one condi

[Jurij.4625]

10 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Ranger deals far more bleeding damage than it does poison. Even on a Soulbeast builds with Vulture Stance, the ratio of bleed damage to poison damage is like 4 to 1.

The way that you go about allocating gear or trait mods towards this however, depends on what mode the build is for.

1. PvE DPS builds you want to begin with Viper gear which adds to all condis. From there out, there are lots of different ways to maximize your condi outputs. The first priority is that you want bleeds to cap 100% bleed duration and not go over, otherwise you're wasting mods that could go to poison and burn, or generally higher flat condi damage. Remember to consider your mods from traits that increase condi duration that are not reflected in your hero panel stats. If you are using GM Skirm Shortbow +10% duration on dodge with the GM Soulbeast trait that grants +10% duration vs. opponents lower health than you, this is effectively a +20% duration. <- At this point you only need your hero panel to be showing 80% bleed duration for your build to be benefitting 100% bleed duration. This means that you could do things like sacrifice some Viper pieces for Sinister pieces, which will grant higher flat condi damage, or drop Rune Of Krait for something like Rune Of Afflicted or Nightmare or Lich Runes.
2. WvW condi builds you want Celestial stats on all of your gear for every reason mentionable, whether it's roaming or zerging. But you do not want to pump your expertise or condi durations on any condi past about 50%, which the Cele gear will bring you very close to anyway. This is because in competitive mods especially wvw, people have so much cleanse and cleanse so frequently that having expertise boosted condis is often a wasted stat. Pay attention to what I am explaining to you here. Let's say you have an attack that does a 4 second bleed. If you had 100% bleed duration it makes the bleed 8 seconds. But you are fighting something like a good Cele Harb or Mirage or anything else that also has antitoxin runes. If most opponents roaming around in wvw are very seriously cleansing 2 to 4 condis per 2 to 4 seconds, there is no reason to invest into massive amount of condition duration boosting because they cleanse your condis before that expertise/duration boosting can deal its damage. At that point hard bonus to flat condition damage is better. What you are aiming at in wvw or even pvp, is to boost the bulk of your small condi applications juuuust enough to stick for about 2 to 3 seconds so that they become dangerous enough for the opponent to need to cleanse. For example, Ranger Shortbow 1 spam or Sharpened Edges on crit bleeds boosted from 1s to 2s, is literally double the damage and these procs equate to at least 50% of your potential damage output. THESE are worth boosting a bit to that 2 to 3 second margin. But worrying about boosting something that is already a 10s condi so that it is 20s, is pointless in competitive modes. People will cleanse a 10s condi before it does all its ticks. At this point, you just want larger flat condi damage so that the small time the condi sticks before it is cleansed, does more damage. TLDR EXPLANATION -> In WvW on any Condi Ranger variant, you want to aim at all Cele stats and around 50% condi duration. From there out, you want to aim at Might stacking, which is going to yield far greater damage output than expertise/duration stacks. I highly advise looking into Rune Of Aristocracy and use of Sigils Of Strength, on both your Shortbow side and Axe side. The Might stacks will stick forever and allow you to casually bloat up to 25 stacks for a strong hybrid power and condi side to the build. Not going to go all into this here, but do not use Sword or Dagger. You need to be using Axe and Torch if you want a strong Condition Ranger build. Sword & Dagger pepega rolling around is an illusion that makes you think you're dodging things, but they have 0 offensive pressure on those sides and all they do for you is delay your lose in the combat. With Sword & Dagger you won't have the offensive pressure required to ever actually kill any decent roamer. Axe/Torch maintaining offensive pressure is actually more defensive than Sword & Dagger, as it does not allow 9s intervals for the opponent to free cycle sustain resets.
3. PvP condis - Here we don't have a lot of options due to gear limitations. On any Condi Ranger variant in pvp, you definitely need to focus on the bleeds and only the bleeds. There simply are not enough options due to limitations and also splits in gear stat effectiveness to focus on several condis. For example, Krait in pve/wvw is +50% bleed but in pvp it is only +20%. The effects that do +% to all condis are ridiculously low and virtually useless to take at all. Your best bet is to utilize the Agony sigils which in pvp do +25% bleed. From there out, allow your traits to handle getting bleeds to roughly that +50% mark, and then use your other options to bolster hard flat condi damage as well as defensive values. You cannot run glass cannon condi burst in pvp, it doesn't work. You will need to invest in considerable defensive effects as Condi Rangers are slow compared to power variants that have lots of mobility skills and stealth in smokescale mechanics. Heads up for you, Druid is and always has been the strongest platform for Condi Ranger variants. Click the link in my signature, slick on the all videos or guides, click on the Rabid Burst Druid guide for spvp.

 

Btw, be careful who you listen to in these forums. In just this thread alone, I am reading so much misinformation. Also keep in mind that what is listed on metasites is not always the best build or practical to use at all. Do enough self-research and build testing, you'll see what I mean.

Thanks for all the good points you listed. I use the Condi Soulbeast build only for Open World & Fractals, and maaaaaybe somewhere in the future I will try Raids. I have separate Celestial set for WvW roaming.

 

I noticed that bleeding is so easy to achieve on ranger, but I wanted to focus on short bow and double daggers, because I enjoy this set much better and I wanted to try different skill rotation with short bow 2, dagger 1, 2, 4, Vulture Stance and with Viper's Nest trap (so, all the poison skills rotation).  I'm definitely not playing this glass viper gear build in WvW, and PvP is really not my cup of tea.

 

I also noticed that even if I focus on poison skills rotation, I still do a ton of bleeding stacks, so I ended up not with strictly poison build but poison/bleeding build 😁

[Jurij.4625]

my current build http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POwAUhjlZwkYTsPmJWaP3P/JkC-zRJYmKhMV4zoAVQkSBnONzYaDUB-e (I'm experimenting with food and I don't have yet all the viper trinkets and backpack but I'm getting there)

[Sirius.4510]

Your build is honestly pretty close to the condition soulbeast build that Snowcrows recommends (a different sigil choice and you're using Oppressive Superiority rather than Leader of the Pack - which is a reasonable decision in some circumstances anyway). They focus on maximizing overall damage output rather than focusing specifically one on or the other, though bleeding does seem to wind up doing somewhat more (50% of the benchmark damage, vs 35% poison; the rest is direct strike damage).

And from my experience, it's a good build. You can definitely bring it most places - fractals for sure but also strikes and raids. It also has the advantage that, as you found, if things are getting too hairy you can camp shortbow, hang back a bit and still do a quite respectable level of damage.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Sirius.4510

[ventress.4879]

All good advice here, it doesn't really need to be a competition. Poison in this rare case can compete with Bleed which is why it is recommended. Poison will also have higher burst damage which is more preferable in PvE and PvP. 

Edited March 10, 2023 by ventress.4879

[Arheundel.6451]

Bleed is more easily stacked on ranger than poison..by a small margin but poison is not only more devastating, but on SB it also heals and reduces enemy healing, it's the whole package. Bleed is more of a cover condition, alone it won't do dangerous dmg unless you reach 25 stacks of bleed consistently and that may be good in pve but not in pvp/wvw