Perma stealth on thiefs is wrong in WvW. Offers no counterplay.

[TheGrimm.5624]

11 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

How would they lose it though? Most people don't play thieves but a lot of people build for boon balls and nothing is really done about any of that aspec of WvW. Any small measure doesn't entirely dismantle any aspects of that either so, are we assuming that Anet will suddenly be like, those ratchet thieves have used stealth for too long and that one guy keeps using macros, time to take everything involved with stealth away from everyone? 

ANet has a bad habit of taking social media as a basis for negative changes. I can hope that they would not, but have seen where they did, so I defend one sided calls. Some of my play time is thief, but its lowest compared to others and don't see them as OP as some have suggested. So wouldn't want a mechanic nerfed due to players abusing an outside of game mechanic.

[unknown.8952]

If there was some cooldowns on thief weapon skills it would fix lot. Only reason thief is difficult to fight/mobile is the ability to spam weapon skills. 

[Burnfall.9573]

6 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

ANet has a bad habit of taking social media as a basis for negative changes. I can hope that they would not, but have seen where they did, so I defend one sided calls. Some of my play time is thief, but its lowest compared to others and don't see them as OP as some have suggested. So wouldn't want a mechanic nerfed due to players abusing an outside of game mechanic.

"It isn't the complaints the customers remember, but the outcome"

Where are the outcome of years of repetitive continual complaints? 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[kash.9213]

8 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

ANet has a bad habit of taking social media as a basis for negative changes. I can hope that they would not, but have seen where they did, so I defend one sided calls. Some of my play time is thief, but its lowest compared to others and don't see them as OP as some have suggested. So wouldn't want a mechanic nerfed due to players abusing an outside of game mechanic.

Makes sense, thanks. I feel like they hint at more prominent changes on the horizon sometimes but that they don't really want to have to dive in on anything yet. I can understand that though since a lot of stuff needs to be changed or heavily adjusted, but then every one of those things would probably disrupt or displace one or two more things around it. 

While I think map traveling stealth should be left alone (and still alow stalking and distance closing for a clutch Stealth Attack once in awhile), I think most combat up close should have more of a cinematic quality, not just to look good, but to be more clear and better paced so that people can make conditioned or creative decisions.

That's why I usually suggest some kind Predator movie light blending cloak filtering in and out based on proximity to enemies that allows stealth play and the use of range and space while still putting emphasis on a sequence of decisions and improvisations for both sides so a fight can actually play out more. That would mean scrapping a lot of the game and almost starting from bare bones though probably. Especially since other mechanics across the board would have to change or that one adjustment would be horribly out of place. 

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by kash.9213

[blp.3489]

Stealth could be made a lot more interesting and less annoying if it used the transparent allied stealthed player graphics which would only be visible to a player when the player is facing the stealthed player and within some minimum distance.  That way you could still sneak up behind a player, but the player would see something if they turned toward you.  Shadowstepping/porting would then become very complimentary to stealth.

 

On top of that, in a PvP context stealth could:

1. make the player untargetable
2. apply blind (1st attack misses) only with respect to the stealthed target
3. apply glancing as per weakness (50% damage, no critical damage)

in order to reflect the difficulty in attacking a stealthy target but without making the opposing player as helpless.  Those three things already exist to some extent and the combination provides fairly strong mitigation while providing counter play that doesn't require limited reveal skills, target painters, or to somehow switch your build before receiving a surprise attack.  The stealth durations could then be increased back to PvE levels.  A stealthed player wouldn't be seen as long as they kept behind their target or beyond the minimum distance, until they shadowstep in for the strike.  Meanwhile other players would be able to avoid surprises if they checked behind themselves or congregated in groups with lookouts etc.

[Ultima.5280]

Arenanet doesn’t play roaming, they don’t even understand the problem.

100% this is fun mecanics to be permastealth when 95% of the build can’t even deal with it.

+ a pain for people struggling maintaining target, stealth is not only frustating, it is very hard to handle for beginners

Edited July 10, 2023 by Ultima.5280

[Burnfall.9573]

Has anyone noticed that Guild Wars 2 is the only game in the market, having a Bad Broken Design Stealth Mechanic in its game?

With many new release games; there are not found to be any version of Guild Wars 2 Bad Broken Design Stealth Mechanic. I mean, not even one inspiration of Guild Wars 2 Stealth Mechanic.

Absolutely, No Gaming Companies are Inspired by Guild Wars 2 Stealth Mechanic to even risk it in their games. Even soon to be released mmo games, Competitive games...are not impressed or even desire to implement Guild Wars 2 Stealth Mechanic in their game. Even to go as far to try to introduce it to their players and its community because of its Toxicity.

After all, Guild Wars 2 market itself as competitive game in the competitive gaming market. Where there is competition, there is Inspiration. Gaming Companies in the gaming market has a knowledge of their competitions.  

They know Guild Wars 2 Stealth Mechanic creativity and productivity are Toxic. They know the role and goal of Guild Wars 2 Stealth Mechanic is to give a negative impact experience  to the players.

So why would they or anyone be Inspired to suggest to implement Guild Wars 2 Stealth Mechanic in their game?

You will find none!

Anet knowing this, what Inspiration Anet find in itself to allow this Toxic Mechanic to be 'the face' of Guild Wars 2  in the competitive gaming market?

[Ultima.5280]

Don’t worry, Alliance is coming soon

[sdaugherty.1984]

On 3/14/2023 at 5:29 PM, Bern.9613 said:

Did thief just get introduced to the game? Is thief the only one capable of stealth? You say willbender/guardian doesn't stand a chance?

I know my Scourge does not stand a chance...

[Avion Blade.4869]

Remove all stealth from thief on all skills/traits/weapons, but keep stealth and bonuses for thief via an f button that has a maximum of 15 seconds cloak. 

Example, core-thief (elite also), presses f-3 to go into stealth, and can press it again to come out of stealth between 0-15 seconds, the seconds go back up after a 3 second-wait.

15 seconds stored; I go cloak: 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, I attack from stealth, and fight and go back to stealth within 2 seconds; 10, 9, 8, I press f-3 to decloak, and remain visible more than 3 seconds; 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15.  I cloak and go away because I see Zerg coming, I am invisible for 15 seconds but I have a lot of mobility to go far away quickly within that time.

All bonuses attacking from stealth, or stealth-related bonuses via build/trait remain and is not removed. 

What do you think?

Edited July 10, 2023 by Avion Blade.4869

[Burnfall.9573]

How about giving Thief Profession the same equal treatment that Anet gives to Punish Necromancer Profession for using conditions- Self-Inflicted Conditions?  How about adding self-conflict conditions for using Stealth Mechanic?

Give Thief Profession the full Onslaught Punishment of self-conflict of every conditions in the game, when activating Stealth?

I think that the Community would be extremely content of that being a fair counter to Stealth Mechanic?

Let Thief Profession counter themselves for using stealth

 

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Avion Blade.4869 said:

Remove all stealth from thief on all skills/traits/weapons, but keep stealth and bonuses for thief via an f button that has a maximum of 15 seconds cloak. 

Example, core-thief (elite also), presses f-3 to go into stealth, and can press it again to come out of stealth between 0-15 seconds, the seconds go back up after a 3 second-wait.

15 seconds stored; I go cloak: 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, I attack from stealth, and fight and go back to stealth within 2 seconds; 10, 9, 8, I press f-3 to decloak, and remain visible more than 3 seconds; 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15.  I cloak and go away because I see Zerg coming, I am invisible for 15 seconds but I have a lot of mobility to go far away quickly within that time.

All bonuses attacking from stealth, or stealth-related bonuses via build/trait remain and is not removed. 

What do you think?

Thief stealth right now performs best when going in and out of stealth instead of camping in it. Do you want thieves to camp stealth and actaully not engage at all or leave stealth signs around until they can launch one good one shot on you then bounce? If that's the only stealth they would have there would have to be more reliable mitigation than simply trying to avoid attacks physically. Brilliant.

1 hour ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

How about giving Thief Profession the same equal treatment that Anet gives to Punish Necromancer Profession for using conditions- Self-Inflicted Conditions?  How about adding self-conflict conditions for using Stealth Mechanic?

Give Thief Profession the full Onslaught Punishment of self-conflict of every conditions in the game, when activating Stealth?

I think that the Community would be extremely content of that being a fair counter to Stealth Mechanic?

Let Thief Profession counter themselves for using stealth

The punishment is having mitigation mostly being placement and mobility instead of passive modifiers popping off. If you can't handle thief stealth they way it's rolled out at this point in the game then your problem is beyond being a troll who cries too much, you might want to look into upgrading your computer maybe, that's wild. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by kash.9213

[Solvar.7953]

How about if a character is stealthed, their speed is reduced in half?  This follows many tabletop RPGs where if you are trying to remain hidden, you are not moving as fast.

The targeting in GW2 in general sucks.  It isn't just players who stealth that causes the target to be lost - monsters that do it cause the same thing to happen.  Where as the character itself almost certainly wants to keep attacking that same creature after it comes out of stealth, like smokescales, and not switch to some random new target.

 

[XECOR.2814]

They gave up or forgot about revealed in latest especs. None of em have any. A little funny tbh.

[iminxi.8514]

Hitting a thief while hes just entered stealth ought to apply reveal tbh its too forgiving atm

[Arheundel.6451]

I am not thief player and fighting thieves is never fun or enjoyable but thieves and rangers are basically the only thing you can actually kill in a straight fight in wvw still....and with the OP being a willbender...most likely a cele willy. Everything is a cele willy these days...minus rangers, thieves and mesmers....the only professions not requiring multiple sources of damage to bring down 

[Ferus.3165]

a 1 second fade time after stealth is applied would also work imo. Stunbreak stealth skills should be excluded from this.

[MrZapples.6043]

Yeah came here to see if everyone else's time gets ruined by thieves. Nice to go somewhere to share the pain. The detargeting on skills already cast is broke too, because at least you could follow the direction the skill casts even if it doesn't hit. Cut smoke field on pistol 5, would balance it because thieves should have to choose utilities, just like the rest of us do. Also they have a 1200 range teleport stun break both ways which is bs. 

[MrZapples.6043]

What if you hit them in stealth does like 300% damage, so if they don't approach you skilfully then they get punished?

[kash.9213]

14 hours ago, MrZapples.6043 said:

Yeah came here to see if everyone else's time gets ruined by thieves. Nice to go somewhere to share the pain. The detargeting on skills already cast is broke too, because at least you could follow the direction the skill casts even if it doesn't hit. Cut smoke field on pistol 5, would balance it because thieves should have to choose utilities, just like the rest of us do. Also they have a 1200 range teleport stun break both ways which is bs. 

If you want thieves to use utilities to stealth instead of Initiative, then we need to revert the recent changes that encourage thieves to go in and right back out of stealth frequently and almost rapidly and encourage them to camp in stealth more. That's on top of making sure those utilities not only give long duration stealth and more critically powerful Stealth Attacks to make up for the loss in rate of fire for Stealth Attacks, but also pack it full of secondary mods to make up for loss in other utilities. Stealth to only maybe avoid intended hits along with negotiating the area around them is a major part of thieves' mitigation.

Do none of your weapons do more than just damage? Pistol 5 is already taking a large bite into thieves' resource budget. What other handicaps are you requesting for yourself? 

Edited July 17, 2023 by kash.9213

[AreohGee.7592]

Is it ok for them to have it then nerf the scrapper?

[Dorsai.1458]

How about toning down thief stealth uptime a bit (few ways to do so)..... but also ...remove stealth from every other freaking class (via skills or runes).  Why the hell mesmers, rangers, and guardians have access to invis is beyond me.  Sounds like lazy skill development when you have no more ideas and listen to whiners that want everything for their class (see signet cata for recent example of skill bloat. Next patch, elems get invis when they give themselves stab ....which they get when they aura ...which they get when they hit any signet (which also gives you prot and damage reduction)

[senftube.6081]

1 hour ago, Dorsai.1458 said:

How about toning down thief stealth uptime a bit (few ways to do so)..... but also ...remove stealth from every other freaking class (via skills or runes).  Why the hell mesmers, rangers, and guardians have access to invis is beyond me.  Sounds like lazy skill development when you have no more ideas and listen to whiners that want everything for their class (see signet cata for recent example of skill bloat. Next patch, elems get invis when they give themselves stab ....which they get when they aura ...which they get when they hit any signet (which also gives you prot and damage reduction)

Thiefs Stealth uptime got recently nerfed in the SA Changes.

[Dorsai.1458]

Yeah ..but not enough.  Instead of stealth being used as an escape, it's used more offensively in this game.  That is probably what pisses off people the most as there is very little counterplay to it.   Stealth is just crap in a tab targeting game with billion of pets, minions, etc running around. 

[senftube.6081]

1 hour ago, Dorsai.1458 said:

Yeah ..but not enough.  Instead of stealth being used as an escape, it's used more offensively in this game.  That is probably what pisses off people the most as there is very little counterplay to it.   Stealth is just crap in a tab targeting game with billion of pets, minions, etc running around. 

Thief has stealth attacks and yes it is that way (offensive and defensive, i tend to say that stealth is even more offensive used expecially on D/P). There is counterplay towards stealth ( Reveal Skills, AoE, Blocks, Invul, Map Awarness aka. Sentries/Watchtowers, Channeled Skills, Tanky Setup, Target Painter/Trap, Condi Setup). In larger fights you will see a thief not that much because the class is not that good in larger fights (i would say it is one of the worst to play in a zerg). 

 

Problem is more, that most players don't have the skill to deal with it. Because they never played a thief and so they do not know what the thief will do next. Once you got that, thief isn't that crazy enemy anymore. 

Then without any joke, most thief players are often Veterans or skilled players. Because the class has like mesmer and some Ele builds a higher Skill Cap.  That means u have to train for a long time to be become good or very good on this class. But such players will be annoying to fight on all class. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by senftube.6081