Celestial Gear needs to go, these builds are unfun and boring to fight against as well as to play.

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 5/6/2023 at 1:56 PM, Hotride.2187 said:

Lets get there first. Saying "but other things will be OP after cele isnt" doesn't mean cele isnt OP.

Replace "cele" with "condi" and we're back to normal.  People have been whining about this for years.  Whattya mean I can't just kill them off my opener and, if I don't, I have to actually pack some sort of cleansing on my build or I lose?  UNFAIR!

[Arheundel.6451]

6 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Replace "cele" with "condi" and we're back to normal.  People have been whining about this for years.  Whattya mean I can't just kill them off my opener and, if I don't, I have to actually pack some sort of cleansing on my build or I lose?  UNFAIR!

If you'd need 3 different stats to make condition work..I doubt you'd run it in the first place. Few months after the condi rework in 2014, one of the main GW1 devs(John Peters) clearly stated that it was overperforming but nothing came out of it as all GW1 devs left. There is a reason why amulet choices like Mercenary and apothecary were removed from PvP = easy sustain while maintaining killing potential due to the condition rework, allowing tanky builds to rank up 20+ stacks of condi...effectively achieving burst dmg with none of the trade-off like low sustain with glass stats like power dmg build have. 

This is why you run condi build.... all benefits...zero trade-off 

[Hotride.2187]

42 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Replace "cele" with "condi" and we're back to normal.  People have been whining about this for years.  Whattya mean I can't just kill them off my opener and, if I don't, I have to actually pack some sort of cleansing on my build or I lose?  UNFAIR!

Gotta love how half the "arguments" in favor of cele are reduced to "it lets me not die to an opener". I play full zerk and I don't die to openers, I wonder how that works?

[Dawdler.8521]

34 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

If you'd need 3 different stats to make condition work..I doubt you'd run it in the first place.

Or as people have discovered, condi works best with many, many more stats.

(oh the irony)

[AliamRationem.5172]

26 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Gotta love how half the "arguments" in favor of cele are reduced to "it lets me not die to an opener". I play full zerk and I don't die to openers, I wonder how that works?

Hey, some players are better than others.  I'm sure you're aware that a high percentage of longbow soulbeast players don't know what to do when their opponent doesn't cooperate by eating their opener.  Is it any surprise the same players complain about condi even when it comes from builds that have essentially zero pressure from any other source?  It doesn't justify cele being OP, but like that other guy said, nerf cele and we'll be back to complaining about condi because we don't want to take sufficient cleanse on our builds.

[Arheundel.6451]

25 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Or as people have discovered, condi works best with many, many more stats.

(oh the irony)

What you found out is that suddenly you get to win fights....and they all happen to have you on a condi build....

[Arheundel.6451]

19 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Hey, some players are better than others.  I'm sure you're aware that a high percentage of longbow soulbeast players don't know what to do when their opponent doesn't cooperate by eating their opener.  Is it any surprise the same players complain about condi even when it comes from builds that have essentially zero pressure from any other source?  It doesn't justify cele being OP, but like that other guy said, nerf cele and we'll be back to complaining about condi because we don't want to take sufficient cleanse on our builds.

Show us what to do once "your opener" fails if you are that good:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POAUGBDELjZiDgFwDeEvB-w

 

It's so good of a class and people don't know how to use it accordingly to the forum and yet....this is wvw right now:

 

[SleepyBat.9034]

17 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Willbender, harbinger, catalyst...too much kittening dmg for the sustain they can have.......it's stupid design and the proof is...3/4 of people "roaming" atm are willbenders and catalysts ...coincidence?

Don't forget virtuoso.

[Arheundel.6451]

3 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Don't forget virtuoso.

Virtuoso?...Are you joking? It's super super weak.....these players in this thread are dying to longbow rangers, you must have missed all the gank groups of rangers roaming around.....

See?..Virtuoso got several blocks/stealth/invulnerability...while ranger got only the GS block...no way in hell that virtuoso can compete with a ranger

Edited May 9, 2023 by Arheundel.6451

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

while ranger got only the GS block...no way in hell that virtuoso can compete with a ranger

The standard SB LB/GS build has:

Energy sigil for the extra dodge

GS4, block, as you mentioned

GS3 evade frames

LB3, stealth

Smokescale smoke bomb, GS3 through for stealth, or worldly impact blast (if you really need the longer stealth)

Smokescale smoke assault, evade frames

Protect me, barrier

And ofc you got a ton of CCs to cover up downtime of the above. Troll unguent is also pretty good, in case you do let dmg through.

That build when played well is really hard to hit; when rotating the CDs well and kiting appropriately. Though of course playing it well requires skill. I'm not sure on equal skill its able to kill cele builds, but it stalemates them quite often. At least from what I've seen on duel spot and around. Its definitely one of the best roaming builds, its just hard to play well; most who play it unload with OWP+quickening zephyr and after that they are dead in 30 seconds or so.

Cele builds in comparison are just spam skills like a bot.

[Arheundel.6451]

31 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

The standard SB LB/GS build has:

Energy sigil for the extra dodge

GS4, block, as you mentioned

GS3 evade frames

LB3, stealth

Smokescale smoke bomb, GS3 through for stealth, or worldly impact blast (if you really need the longer stealth)

Smokescale smoke assault, evade frames

Protect me, barrier

And ofc you got a ton of CCs to cover up downtime of the above. Troll unguent is also pretty good, in case you do let dmg through.

That build when played well is really hard to hit; when rotating the CDs well and kiting appropriately. Though of course playing it well requires skill. I'm not sure on equal skill its able to kill cele builds, but it stalemates them quite often. At least from what I've seen on duel spot and around. Its definitely one of the best roaming builds, its just hard to play well; most who play it unload with OWP+quickening zephyr and after that they are dead in 30 seconds or so.

Cele builds in comparison are just spam skills like a bot.

Ranger is now one if not the hardest class in this game to play well...and not because it's relatively weak..it's because everything else has been powercrept to insane levels, people got access to builds that literally play themselves...

[Widebody.5071]

13 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Ah yes, pre-eod every profession but war and thief had cele builds (ranging from good to broken). Now also war and thief have cele builds. But its eod fault? You can of course say harb and cata are more broken than the previous broken cele builds. But pretending cele was fine before eod?

No idea why you keep trying to place reactions where there are none. No one cares about bad players in this game, at most some try to educate them. No one is "salty", "pissed" or "triggered".

Well you do you and I'll do me.

[Widebody.5071]

12 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Gotta love how half the "arguments" in favor of cele are reduced to "it lets me not die to an opener". I play full zerk and I don't die to openers, I wonder how that works?

Where is that post at what I'm seeing is folks complaining because they have to fight for more then 30 seconds. example the videos above. Even though close to half the other players did not have any food or utility running. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Widebody.5071
spell check

[Hotride.2187]

3 hours ago, Widebody.5071 said:

Where is that post at what I'm seeing is folks complaining because they have to fight for more then 30 seconds. example the videos above. Even though close to half the other players did not have any food or utility running. 

1v1 by competent players on roaming power builds already take 1-2 min in this game, not infrequently even longer. The problem with cele is that their equivalent 1v1s dont end and even 1v1s of cele vs power builds often take 5+ min (though the power build is bound to lose, aside from very few roaming builds that either stalemate or have some slim chance to win).

I understand that new players die in seconds, that some builds kill also experienced players in seconds if the experienced player makes enough mistakes. But that is fine for me. There is duel spot and conquest to learn to play. Wvw roaming is not a good place to learn, you can run into any sort of situation where you'll get deleted.

[KrHome.1920]

Celestial is a good attribute combination, when you just want one gear set to work for everything.

If you want to min/max, its effectiveness is still subpar to maruder for power builds, trailblazer for condi builds and soldier or minstrel for bunker builds, even with the bloated number of attribute points. That's the reason why ANet buffed it in the first place.

While cele is strong on most builds (even on power builds) it is only completely overpowered on harbinger, but that's a result of the design of its elite elixier. That elixier becomes absurdly strong when paired which celestial. If you can manage to dodge the elixier a celestial harbinger is dealble. The problem is that the elixier is almost impossible to dodge. You have to play a build that can deal with the condi overload and at the same time a target that can not be counterpressured due to all the boons.

Edited May 10, 2023 by KrHome.1920

[Zyreva.1078]

19 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Its definitely one of the best roaming builds, its just hard to play well;

I don't think it's "one of the best roaming builds". Yes, it can stalemate 1vs1s when played defensively and it can kill noobs pretty quickly, however, it is bad at going offensive while under pressure/having to kite, it has long cds on it's offense window (sic'em/owp), so any decent player should have defensive cds (that got lower and lower cds over time) ready every single time to counter the telegraphed burst, and it's mostly single target dmg.

That's not to say it's bad, but it just isn't on the same level as any of the actually good cele roaming builds - including cele slb.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

I don't think it's "one of the best roaming builds".

It is though. And if you want to play power it probably is the best, if you disregard really good thieves.

5 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

soldier or minstrel for bunker builds

just lol

[Zero.3871]

6 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Celestial is a good attribute combination, when you just want one gear set to work for everything.

If you want to min/max, its effectiveness is still subpar to maruder for power builds, trailblazer for condi builds and soldier or minstrel for bunker builds, even with the bloated number of attribute points. That's the reason why ANet buffed it in the first place.

While cele is strong on most builds (even on power builds) it is only completely overpowered on harbinger, but that's a result of the design of its elite elixier. That elixier becomes absurdly strong when paired which celestial. If you can manage to dodge the elixier a celestial harbinger is dealble. The problem is that the elixier is almost impossible to dodge. You have to play a build that can deal with the condi overload and at the same time a target that can not be counterpressured due to all the boons.

i always wonder why people dont seem to know the tons of counterplay. i mean you just need a reflect, block, dodge or just move out of harbs range until the ult runs out. every class can easily do that.

[Kozumi.5816]

7 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Yes, it can stalemate 1vs1s when played defensively

This is why this games PvP is the worst in the genre and has been for a decade.

[KrHome.1920]

17 hours ago, Zero.3871 said:

i always wonder why people dont seem to know the tons of counterplay. i mean you just need a reflect, block, dodge or just move out of harbs range until the ult runs out. every class can easily do that.

What brings you to the conclusion that the harb will use the elixier while you block, reflect, dodge or are not in range?

I guarantee you, when I play a harb and you play whatever you want, you will get hit by that elixier.

[Zero.3871]

5 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

What brings you to the conclusion that the harb will use the elixier while you block, reflect, dodge or are not in range?

I guarantee you, when I play a harb and you play whatever you want, you will get hit by that elixier.

as i said: "until ult runs out".

harb is a heavily projectile related class. you can ez deny the most of its dmg by using reflects, invis, blocks, etc. just getting hit by the ult should not kill you. even when the ult hits you: burning+poison+bleeding+torment are the only condis you get by it that continously dmg you. on cele build with 25 stacks of might it should be around 700 condi dmg/s, all that condis together. i mean even with 12k hp the ult alone needs more then 10 seconds to kill you. if you cant use condi cleanses its not a balance issue.

even 2 stacks of burning by a full condi build already ticking higher dmg. 

[solemn.9670]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:55 AM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Replace "cele" with "condi" and we're back to normal.  People have been whining about this for years.  Whattya mean I can't just kill them off my opener and, if I don't, I have to actually pack some sort of cleansing on my build or I lose?  UNFAIR!

I've been trying to figure out why some players still think this is a get good issue, or a "you need more cleanses" issue. It's the equivalent of the "just dodge kekw" meme; you say that, but doing what you say won't actually help bc I don't think that's the problem lol

The problem seems to be, first and foremost, that GOOD condi players 1) play builds that most players may not know exist, & 2) know how to absolutely overload condis on ppl in such an oppressive way that there are not even enough cleanses in the game to deal with it.

The reason you hear "skill issue git gud slot more cleanses" in response to this sentiment so often is pretty much just that they think you died like an idiot to an unskilled condi player..when what actually happened is that you were running antitoxin rune, double cleansing sigils, double generosity sigils, every trait cleanse possible, every utility and heal cleanse possible, and still got absolutely condi farted because it really is that bad when fighting a good condi player who knows what they're doing lmao

It is not the same with most power skills; power is still subject to unbalance, but most of the time if you bunker up vs power you actually will absorb the majority of the damage, it goes on cool down... Condi can be spammed ad absurdum, yes they have CDs like everyone else but simply spamming autoattack is enough sometimes on harbinger lmao

Not so with condi, with condi you just die because a cele harb overloaded you with 8 condis, you cleansed them all, it overloaded you with 8 condis again, you cleansed them all, it overloaded you with 6 condis again, you cleansed them, it overloaded you with 6 condis again and then you died in a panic because what else do you do, you can't CC bc they have stability or they block or know to look out for it (remember I'm talking about skilled condi players) and go back to overloading you with condi

lol I can already see the responses coming, saying this is a skill issue etc. I don't know how else to explain it to ppl like that. Some ppl will just never understand, probably bc they main condi and have the blinders on

tl;dr nerf cele expertise, yes

[Widebody.5071]

What's sad is the ones running condi and firing off 900 unit aoe's are the ones who caused warrior to be in the state it's in. Too bad we can't access the old forums. I used to be able to deal with caster classes now it seems like I'm just spinning my wheels, I guess I'm a bad player but since I'm such a bad player why are all the "skilled players" moaning and groaning so much.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Widebody.5071
spell check

[Pooh.6897]

I like Celestial because you get to take/have stats that are otherwise really hard to get or not worth speccing into. For example, healing power and toughness. It's very nice to have access to these stats while not being forced to spec too heavily into them. It doesn't turn you into a tank, but it provides just enough to feel a little bit more durable across the board, which is very nice. The tradeoff for this is that you get to deal less damage compared to viper/berserker which IMO is pretty fair.

Yes, the total amount of stat points it gives is much higher, but not all stat points weigh as heavily as others. For example between 100 points in Healing Power and 100 points in Concentration, Concentration tends to provide more benefit. This is mainly due to the way of how skills scale with Healing Power. Another argument as why not to take celestial is that you're forced to spec into stats that provide very minimal benefit. For example a Necro using a scepter is very minimally going to benefit from the power, precision and ferocity that celestial brings, to the point that these stat points can effectively be considered 'dead/wasted' for such a player.

On the contrary of OP's opinion, I tend to think that Celestial builds are more fun than non-celestial ones. This is mainly due to the fact that for a celestial build to run well, you have to broaden your understanding of the game and the mindset you have. This is because your damage-output is twofold. there's a part that is very directly applied, the power-damage part. often this is not enough to burst someone down though. the other part is the condi-damage that keeps ticking in the background, however the damage ticks are often not strong enough to be deadly on their own. The challenge of hybrid builds is to properly overlay these two types in such a way that you can down your opponent.

Specifically for a build that aims to enjoy maximum benefit from celestial, there are *at least* 4 aspects that need to exist within your build and that you need to keep track of, namely power damage, condi damage, boons and conditions. If your build has power, condi and boons but no conditions you're better off running diviner. If you have condi damage, conditions and boons you're better off running Viper and try to shoehorn in additional boon-duration with sigils and runes. There's this argument floating around here that other gearstats needs to sacrifice something, but the point of a good build is that you try to minimize this sacrifice as much as you can. For example, if you want to do condi damage and be tanky, take apothecary or shaman and try mixing that with viper. With apothecary you're not going to make a power-focused build, no, you're going to make a condi-build so the lack of power, precision and ferocity doesn't bother you. If your build leans heavily on one condition to do damage, more power to you. now you can use one of those runes that provide a flat %-increase and get maximum value.

The trade-off for Celestial is that you need to have a very broad build that can do multiple things at once. If it cant do that, celestial makes no sense and you're better off choosing a different gearstat or a combination of different gearstats. In essence the argument here is Power/condi-builds vs. Hybrid, since celestial really only makes sense for hybrid builds, and even then it's competing with Grieving gear.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Darth Pooh.5638

[Jitters.9401]

On 5/10/2023 at 11:10 AM, Zyreva.1078 said:

however, it is bad at going offensive while under pressure

Maybe change your playstyle up a bit so you can win more. 

 

I've won many fights by playing defensive when going on an offensive would be suicide. 

Just a matter of knowing your opponent(s).