Pick-Up-Group-Only Raiding On NA Isn't Dead. I Full Cleared Every Strike and Raid Encounter But 1 In Masterwork Gear On An Off-Meta Build This Week To Prove It.

[mandala.8507]

I had heard some discussions lately about how NA lfg raiding was kind of dead, but as someone who exclusively raids on NA using the lfg, I'd say it's more active than people think. So, I challenged myself in the last week of Super Adventure Box to clear all the 10-man encounters exclusively using the lfg on an off-meta reaper build using all masterwork gear. I managed to do all but 1 of those encounters without leading a single one of them.

Firstly, here's a demo of the build I used for this challenge:

Doing a whopping 20k dps on the golem, I was asking for trouble, but it was far smoother sailing than even I had anticipated.

Here are the logs (uploaded anonymously; I'm the uploader for each file):

IBS Strikes:

1. Shiverpeak Pass: https://dps.report/DNpw-20230414-163401_ice
2. Bears: https://dps.report/3vKh-20230414-162625_falln 
3. Fraenir of Jormag: https://dps.report/TbdT-20230414-162957_frae
4. Whisper of Jormag: https://dps.report/qcYN-20230414-162243_whisp
5. Boneskinner: https://dps.report/EYMb-20230414-161755_bone 

EoD Strikes:

1. Aetherblade Hideout: https://dps.report/0hFT-20230413-004704_trin
2. Xunlai Jade Junkyard: https://dps.report/xNaJ-20230413-005335_ankka
3. Kaineng Overlook: https://dps.report/JMdv-20230413-010455_li
4. Harvest Temple: https://dps.report/2BQB-20230413-011615_void
5. Old Lion's Court: https://dps.report/4gG5-20230413-014746_olc

Wing 1:

1. Vale Guardian: https://dps.report/k8XE-20230414-023318_vg
2. Gorseval: https://dps.report/QQUC-20230414-024934_gors
3. Sabetha: https://dps.report/LIV7-20230414-025753_sab

Wing 2:

1. Slothasor: https://dps.report/3wSo-20230414-235657_sloth
2. Matthias: https://dps.report/GX1S-20230415-001627_matt

Wing 3:

1. Escort: https://dps.report/RHc2-20230413-233826_esc
2. Keep Construct: https://dps.report/B92Y-20230413-234825_kc
3. Twisted Castle: https://dps.report/dnrT-20230413-235635_tc
4. Xera: https://dps.report/hOGh-20230414-001330_xera

Wing 4:

1. Cairn: https://dps.report/tdhM-20230414-003535_cairn
2. Mursaat Overseer: https://dps.report/lZQ1-20230414-005158_mo
3. Samarog: https://dps.report/PPxo-20230414-010725_sam
4. Deimos: https://dps.report/cF9B-20230414-020610_dei

Wing 5:

1. Soulless Horror: https://dps.report/w9EV-20230413-024105_sh
2. Broken King: https://dps.report/gCnD-20230413-025229_bk
3. Eater of Souls: https://dps.report/UcgF-20230413-025704_se
4. Eyes: https://dps.report/fcEd-20230413-030516_eyes
5. Dhuum: https://dps.report/m8N9-20230413-033540_dhuum

Wing 6: 

1. Conjured Amalgamate: https://dps.report/BbXd-20230414-143500_ca
2. Twin Largos: https://dps.report/HybC-20230414-153003_twins
3. Qadim: I tried...not very hard, but I tried. I'm sorry, I'm a failure!

Wing 7:

1. Cardinal Adina: https://dps.report/No0j-20230410-173508_adina
2. Cardinal Sabir: https://dps.report/2B34-20230410-174511_sabir
3. Qadim the Peerless: https://dps.report/aEHT-20230412-145801_qpeer

All of the wings were done with different groups and some of the wings were done in parts with different commanders.

The only wing where I joined a group asking for proof of experience was Wing 2. All the others let me in no questions asked.

Wing 7 was the emboldened wing this week, so those bosses were killed with that assistance enabled.

I failed to do wing 6 Qadim, but that full clear attempt went through 3 different commanders and probably over 20 different players, so I was over it by the time we disbanded after a few attempts on the last boss. Gotta leave room for improvement, I guess. Maybe I'll finish it off this weekend — who knows.

But yeah, sometimes I hear people who mostly raid with statics give more hate to the raid lfg than it probably deserves. I would absolutely recommend joining a static/raiding discord for learning to raid or if you want to really get deep into raiding with a group of like-minded players on a consistent schedule, but I also wouldn't want to discourage anyone who doesn't have the time or social battery to do that from thinking raiding through the lfg is impossible, because it's not. I have over 900 LI just from raiding with pick up groups on NA, and as long as you aren't too picky with what you want to do and when each time you log in, you'll find other people soldiering on using the in-game group finding methods — especially in Wings 1-4.

Okay, bye! 

[Cyninja.2954]

First off: great job. Also nice documentation and summary. As an EU raider myself (with around 1-1.5 years of PUG raiding for mostly full clears in-between the majority of static/guild groups), I'm glad NA is not as bad as it sometimes gets portrayed in regards to PUG groups.

 

Also nice extra challenge playing on an off-meta build with masterwork gear. It does show though, you are usually bottom dps, sometimes by a lot and sometimes by just a bit below the 2nd lowest. Still the dps done would be more than sufficient to clear most fights, even if every dps player was pumping "only" that much (at which point longer fight durations become an issue). I know high performance wasn't your goal, just pointing this out (and it goes to show once again that raids are technically balanced around masterwork gear. After all of the PoF and EoD power-creep more than ever).

 

Finally I think you are nailing it in regards to time: I believe for most players this is a matter of time invested, both available as well as effort wise. Some players just don't have the time to raid via the LFG, most just don't want to put in the effort to monitor the LFG continuously. Either will lead to issues, especially when starting out.

 

I'd personally still advise any player interested in raiding to join a guild as well, it just makes the entire process easier and more enjoyable (once you find like-minded players. There are tons of mid range and more casual guilds that raid too. In fact probably far more than high end raid groups/guilds, just as in every other content).

Edited April 15, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Biziut.3594]

<All raiders are toxic screeth> in 3, 2, 1...

 

Nice work and commitment ^^  Before my static found me I used to do a pug runs too. 90% of the time I managed to do full clears with them. And that was when I just started to raid. So I haven't got many kp's eighter. 

[Sobx.1758]

Good job. Glad there's someone ready to squash that -so eagerly repeated by some- "maybe on EU! NA lfg is empty and unpuggable!" misinformation ❤️ 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Krzysztof.5973]

NA raid lfg is dead compared to EU. It's not impossible to get clears but it's simply not as active. 

[mythical.6315]

I personally would not have ran in masterwork gear for raids unless everyone agreed that it was fine prior to the runs. This otherwise promotes players to go in and get carried.  There’s nothing special about one person playing an off meta build using bad gear. Instead, the challenge was put on to everyone else. 

Edited April 16, 2023 by mythical.6315

[Machineuzi.5604]

Just to be clear everyone in squad was aware that you had masterwork gear and was okay with you competing with druids in dps?

[Nephalem.8921]

16 minutes ago, Machineuzi.5604 said:

Just to be clear everyone in squad was aware that you had masterwork gear and was okay with you competing with druids in dps?

Obviously not. He advocated for this useless build in necro channel too.

This shows why experienced players chose discord communities though. Most of these logs are unholy fiestas. 17min for olc normal? Not swapping to something not trolling after multiple wipes is just disrespectful to everyone else's time. And all of these logs have at least 1 good player in them carrying a lot of dead weight.

If anything this shows how easy it is to leech pug raids and why pugs are so painful to play in. Doing your own little erp challenges with strangers is not helping the pug experience.

[Machineuzi.5604]

 

1 hour ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Doing your own little erp challenges with strangers is not helping the pug experience.

Doesnt help reaper players' experience within pugs either lol

Edited April 16, 2023 by Machineuzi.5604

[mandala.8507]

I don't think there's some magic threshold where I have to disclose the gear I'm using. This game specifically doesn't have minimum gear requirements for 10-man content despite it being a common feature of the genre, and I disagree that I was leeching these encounters. Consistently clearing mechanics is far more important than the extra 50% damage I could have been doing.

This challenge would be impossible if I was instigating arbitrary kicks, and honestly joining groups and forcing them to greenlight my gear would have been far more provocative than just letting them judge my gameplay like usual.

There was only 1 Twin Largos attempt where I think me doing competitive damage would have saved the pull. Every other wipe had nothing to do with our damage potential, and even that 1 pull where I could have clutched it out failed because other people were messing up mechanics.

Besides; I wasn't leading any of these groups and they could have kicked me whenever they wanted to.

And I'm not advocating for doing raids in green gear either, I just used green gear to remove the X-factor of being a desirable player in the group. It's easy for someone constantly pulling top dps to claim getting clears on the lfg is possible, but this challenge removed that confounding variable.

I do raiders a favor by publicly showcasing how welcoming and non-toxic their community can be and they ruin it by flaming me after the fact. Learn to take the free W's, y'all.🤣

[Sobx.1758]

15 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

I personally would not have ran in masterwork gear for raids unless everyone agreed that it was fine prior to the runs. This otherwise promotes players to go in and get carried.  There’s nothing special about one person playing an off meta build using bad gear. Instead, the challenge was put on to everyone else. 

I get what you're saying, but if you check the dps logs OP posted, more often than not he seems to be "in the middle of the pack". I think it's less about "trying to get carried" (although w6/7 are questionable 😛 ) and more about presenting very clearly suboptimal dps values random players can have -and it's emulated through using weak gear. Seeing how the thread is aimed at squashing misinformation, I'd risk a guess this one is aimed at the collective "I get kicked by elitist raiders whenever my rotation isn't perfect, I don't have perfect gear and I won't play piano! (because pug groups totally do require 95%+ benchmarks!)".

[Linken.6345]

34 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

I don't think there's some magic threshold where I have to disclose the gear I'm using. This game specifically doesn't have minimum gear requirements for 10-man content despite it being a common feature of the genre, and I disagree that I was leeching these encounters. Consistently clearing mechanics is far more important than the extra 50% damage I could have been doing.

This challenge would be impossible if I was instigating arbitrary kicks, and honestly joining groups and forcing them to greenlight my gear would have been far more provocative than just letting them judge my gameplay like usual.

There was only 1 Twin Largos attempt where I think me doing competitive damage would have saved the pull. Every other wipe had nothing to do with our damage potential, and even that 1 pull where I could have clutched it out failed because other people were messing up mechanics.

Besides; I wasn't leading any of these groups and they could have kicked me whenever they wanted to.

And I'm not advocating for doing raids in green gear either, I just used green gear to remove the X-factor of being a desirable player in the group. It's easy for someone constantly pulling top dps to claim getting clears on the lfg is possible, but this challenge removed that confounding variable.

I do raiders a favor by publicly showcasing how welcoming and non-toxic their community can be and they ruin it by flaming me after the fact. Learn to take the free W's, y'all.🤣

I think its like Sobx.1758 kitten slinging your way is most likely from the side that say pug raids are impossible if your not 90% benchmark crowd

[Juan.6124]

I am greatfull to be on EU knowing there is a reaper in masterworks valkyrie gear on the NA lfg.

[mythical.6315]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I get what you're saying, but if you check the dps logs OP posted, more often than not he seems to be "in the middle of the pack". I think it's less about "trying to get carried" (although w6/7 are questionable 😛 ) and more about presenting very clearly suboptimal dps values random players can have -and it's emulated through using weak gear. Seeing how the thread is aimed at squashing misinformation, I'd risk a guess this one is aimed at the collective "I get kicked by elitist raiders whenever my rotation isn't perfect, I don't have perfect gear and I won't play piano! (because pug groups totally do require 95%+ benchmarks!)".

There are plenty of patient groups out there and you don't need to troll them by using masterwork gear just to figure out who they are.  One thing that the OP does not realize is that players who notice this, may very well take note of their name and will not group with them in the future.  When my static looked for fills, there were some people that we refused to later group with because it was obvious that they didn't know the fights (we don't ask for KP to be pinged).  This whole masterwork gear thing is going to make it harder for legitimate players who are trying to use the LFG and are willing to put in the effort.

Their position in the logs isn't as important as to how much DPS that they did compared to the other DPS.  Middle of the pack isn't relevant when you have support builds that deal less DPS than DPS focused builds. 

[mandala.8507]

5 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

One thing that the OP does not realize is that players who notice this, may very well take note of their name and will not group with them in the future.  When my static looked for fills, there were some people that we refused to later group with because it was obvious that they didn't know the fights (we don't ask for KP to be pinged). 

Good for me?

I don't particularly care to fill for statics orchestrating lfg blacklists anyway.

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Good for me?

I don't particularly care to fill for statics orchestrating lfg blacklists anyway.

Unless you're creating your own group, how do you know that you're not a fill?  The person that created the group may refuse to accept you in later runs and may even discourage other groups they're in that are being formed from accepting you.  Word may spread around as well and those not directly associated with anyone you've grouped with before may not want to accept you.  You would  just build a negative reputation and it will follow you.

Edited April 17, 2023 by mythical.6315

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, mythical.6315 said:

Unless you're creating your own group, how do you know that you're not a fill?  The person that created the group may refuse to accept you in later runs and may even discourage other groups they're in that are being formed from accepting you.  Word may spread around as well and those not directly associated with anyone you've grouped with before may not want to accept you.  You would  just build a negative reputation and it will follow you.

Ooooh, spooky!

[Krzysztof.5973]

6 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

You would  just build a negative reputation and it will follow you.

He already did 😏
Destroying raiding community is just a bonus

[mythical.6315]

3 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Destroying raiding community is just a bonus

I somehow get the feeling that that was the actual intention. 

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, mythical.6315 said:

4 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Destroying raiding community is just a bonus

I somehow get the feeling that that was the actual intention. 

Oh no!, my diabolical scheme has been discovered! All along I was attempting to trick new players into wearing green gear in raids to tear the scene down from the inside! 😈

-obligatory /s

[Obtena.7952]

Pure comedy when purists raiders claim casuals are tearing their communities down by showing how inclusive the raid experience can be while also simultaneously showing how exclusive some of the players try to make it. 

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Vilin.8056]

If a player can pull off 20k dps on a off-meta reaper, he's not a casual. Demanding a casual player to pull off a rotation like that is just simply unrealistic. Besides, it's a mediocre performance for the relatively hardcore effort. A condi Virtuso can easily surpass that with 2 buttons.

And the debate around meta build is just a question of whether you want to buy gear stats to ease off player skill requirement, or going exceptional player skill to make up the loss of stats in off-meta builds. The choice is obvious because getting an extra set of berserker or viper gears are cheap these days and far less demanding.

Some clueless players also used to taunt that raids can be done with master gear therefore the meta is unnecessary. Sure veteran raiders can handle this handicap. But when it comes to new or casual players, it's simply not a reasonable demand for player skill.

It's the reason why sites like Snowcrow remain the absolute reference for entry raiders - even merely blindly following a blind meta build with meta food will drastically improve damage output from bad rotations, therefore lowering the skill requirements. When it comes to a raid/strike, enforce the squad on meta build eases off players on their skill inputs and therefore increase rate of success on a casual squad. We can't expect a stable skill level in a pug environment, but we can least expect preparations in stats.

I admire op's efforts, but to me it's just another stunt carried by a veteran raider, which means very little for the casual playerbase.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Vilin.8056

[mandala.8507]

I will say that I do not consider myself a casual at all. I get called a casual as a putdown sometimes, but I'm definitely beyond that criticism now imo. 

The primary point of this thread was to showcase that the NA lfg is alive and secondarily that you don't have to be a top-tier player to get into and stay in the groups that run there. Really nothing about casual vs elite, meta vs. off-meta, viable vs. unviable was meant to be part of this discussion, despite some people's efforts to drag the conversation there.

I definitely have an inclusive outlook concerning what the raid culture should be in Gw2, so maybe that's what people mean when they call me casual? Who knows.

Perhaps like beauty, casualness is in the eye of the beholder.

[Ombras.2853]

Not gonna lie. If someone had joined my raids in green gears without them being a “challenge run” or something, I’d kick them.

You should respect the time of the players you are running with. You absolutely don’t have to be perfect, that’s not elitism or whatever. Just don’t troll. It’s not fun.

[Linken.6345]

6 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Not gonna lie. If someone had joined my raids in green gears without them being a “challenge run” or something, I’d kick them.

You should respect the time of the players you are running with. You absolutely don’t have to be perfect, that’s not elitism or whatever. Just don’t troll. It’s not fun.

How would you know?

It could be a really bad dps,heal, booner in legendary gear.