Make enemies smarter (and other PvE combat improvements).

[Dib.4612]

Make enemies smart enough to dodge heavy attacks and dodge or walk out of area damage.

Make enemies smart enough to set up combos on you and punish your for mistakes.

Make enemies smart enough to work together.

This will make the game more interactive, immersive and thus fun. And will possibly make it easier to design for all gamemodes at the same time.

And maybe get people more engaged with things PvP and WvW, as they will be familiar with its mechanics.

 

This, in my opinion, should be paired with a simplified scaling system that should go either of two ways.

1. ONLY increase NPC rank based on the amount of players, make them larger too with each rank to make them more visible. This will have the benefit of having less clutter and thus being more readable and reactable for players.

or

2. ONLY spawn standard mobs, but in the same amount as there are players. And make them smart enough to work like a WvW blob. This will have the benefit of making people familiar with WvW in a PvE setting, although of course the game will be less readable. 

 

If the latter (2) is not deemed desirable, then perhaps WvW itself ought to be reconsidered on a deep level.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

And then you got casuals going to hot and complaining about geting killed by bunch of pocket raptors

Edited May 14, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[vares.8457]

Not gonna happen unfortunately, too many open world casuals that would cry and complain for weeks. Every time they try to make content a little bit more difficult the casuals get a complete meltdown 

Edited May 5, 2023 by vares.8457

[Albadaran.1283]

I guess you are talking about PvE engagements. No, I don't think that is the solution. But there is one thing that should change: low level creatures attacking scaled down level 80's on lower levelled maps. Let them flee instead or scale those creatures accordingly up to the (average) player's level.

 

And yes, play WvW or PvP is you want more challenge.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

12 minutes ago, Albadaran.1283 said:

And yes, play WvW or PvP is you want more challenge.

He want Elden Ring but in gw2, it's good idea, but wrong community for it

Edited May 5, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Jin.8501]

53 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

Not gonna happen unfortunately, too many open world casuals that would cry and complain for weeks. Every time they try to make content a little bit more difficult the casuals get a complete meltdown 

I'm a casual and I love challenge. In fact currently replaying GW1 survivor mode oh and the enemies there try to avoid AoE 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Jin.8501

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Dib.4612 said:

Make enemies smart enough to dodge heavy attacks and dodge or walk out of area damage.

Make enemies smart enough to set up combos on you and punish your for mistakes.

Make enemies smart enough to work together.

This will make the game more interactive, immersive and thus fun. And will possibly make it easier to design for all gamemodes at the same time.

And maybe get people more engaged with things PvP and WvW, as they will be familiar with its mechanics.

 

This, in my opinion, should be paired with a simplified scaling system that should go either of two ways.

1. ONLY increase NPC rank based on the amount of players, make them larger too with each rank to make them more visible. This will have the benefit of having less clutter and thus being more readable and reactable for players.

or

2. ONLY spawn standard mobs, but in the same amount as there are players. And make them smart enough to work like a WvW blob. This will have the benefit of making people familiar with WvW in a PvE setting, although of course the game will be less readable. 

 

If the latter (2) is not deemed desirable, then perhaps WvW itself ought to be reconsidered on a deep level.

While it sounds like it would make things more fun and interesting, in practice it actually doesn't.  You essentially want enemies that function intelligently like a player would.  But if that were the case and enemy strength were more or less comparable to players, the game would be exceedingly frustrating.  You fail if you die once.  Meanwhile you're expected to fight an endless number of enemies.

The alternative is that singular enemies are not much of a challenge (again, as it should be because their numbers are endless).  But in that scenario giving them mechanics like evades, invulns, and blocks is simply annoying.  It's okay to have some enemies with this capability, but the more prevalent it is the more annoying (e.g. griffons that just fly around evading, desolators that stay invuln until they feel like being vulnerable, etc.).

Enemies working together is promising.  However, it isn't strictly necessary because, again, there are tons of them and only one of you.  Do mordrem snipers need to coordinate their sniper lines of death in order to be much more of a threat when there are multiple mordrem present than when you fight them 1 on 1?

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

Quote

make enemies smarter

AI powered mobs when?

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

2 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

Not gonna happen unfortunately, too many open world casuals that would cry and complain for weeks. Every time they try to make content a little bit more difficult the casuals get a complete meltdown 

At least , we don't have to listen to raiders telling us that we don't need the Turtles and we should leave the Soon-Won open world meta meta to them (where even they they don't do it after a year ,   like Marriornete + Clearing Ire +Tripple Trouble) 😛

 

brb 

Spoiler

(the good part is the majority distanced themseles forums for now , lets see if "some people" can push for more hardcore stuff + OW , as they planned:P Then they will start blaming the old gg again at octomber for the lack of exciting things , and we will continue the circle next year 😛)

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Dib.4612]

24 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

While it sounds like it would make things more fun and interesting, in practice it actually doesn't.  You essentially want enemies that function intelligently like a player would.  But if that were the case and enemy strength were more or less comparable to players, the game would be exceedingly frustrating.  You fail if you die once.  Meanwhile you're expected to fight an endless number of enemies.

The alternative is that singular enemies are not much of a challenge (again, as it should be because their numbers are endless).  But in that scenario giving them mechanics like evades, invulns, and blocks is simply annoying.  It's okay to have some enemies with this capability, but the more prevalent it is the more annoying (e.g. griffons that just fly around evading, desolators that stay invuln until they feel like being vulnerable, etc.).

Enemies working together is promising.  However, it isn't strictly necessary because, again, there are tons of them and only one of you.  Do mordrem snipers need to coordinate their sniper lines of death in order to be much more of a threat when there are multiple mordrem present than when you fight them 1 on 1?

The obvious solution to this would be to have fewer enemies compared to the amount of players than we currently have. 

I think it is more fun to fight one enemy that is interactive and has a mind than to mow down a bunch of them as if I'm mowing the lawn. This also allows players to see what is going on and react more easily.

 

Furthermore, if you deem this solution poor because you find PvP to be frustrating. Then perhaps the combat in general needs to be looked into with a critical eye. As PvP is when the system is strained the most, or put to the test most dilligently. 

 

Also, intelligence of AI can be scaled, so you can make them interactive (and thus fun and immersive), but not as smart as the average player, so that the player will be able to defeat the enemy and feel good about it too.

[Dib.4612]

2 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

Not gonna happen unfortunately, too many open world casuals that would cry and complain for weeks. Every time they try to make content a little bit more difficult the casuals get a complete meltdown 

Making the enemies, as I wrote in the other reply, responsive, doesn't necesarily mean you have to make them smarter than a player.
Now they feel inhumane, but it would be more immersive already to turn them into dumb AI.

[Nazarick.9653]

2 hours ago, Dib.4612 said:

Make enemies smart enough to dodge heavy attacks and dodge or walk out of area damage.

Make enemies smart enough to set up combos on you and punish your for mistakes.

Make enemies smart enough to work together.

This will make the game more interactive, immersive and thus fun. And will possibly make it easier to design for all gamemodes at the same time.

And maybe get people more engaged with things PvP and WvW, as they will be familiar with its mechanics.

 

Trouble is, if they did that they're bound to leave everything else untouched out of laziness...and the floodgates of QQ would open quite quickly when attempting to kill anything in HoT (mob difficulty), travel anywhere in PoF (stupid aggro range+respawn rates) or land a single hit on anything in EoD. (CC spam, patrols, aggro range etc.)

[Dib.4612]

1 hour ago, Albadaran.1283 said:

I guess you are talking about PvE engagements. No, I don't think that is the solution. But there is one thing that should change: low level creatures attacking scaled down level 80's on lower levelled maps. Let them flee instead or scale those creatures accordingly up to the (average) player's level.

 

And yes, play WvW or PvP is you want more challenge.

I think the gap between PvE and PvP/WvW is too large now.

You go from mowing grass and hitting sandbags to fighting fully capable and experienced players, I think this is what keeps a lot of people from transitioning to PvP.

The least the devs could do, as I've stated before, is to grant the NPCs some form of intelligence, albeit minimal.

 

And something I did not mention before, but could pair well with that, is to bring player skills to NPCs more consistenly as long as they are bi-pedal, to get players used to fighting others players.

[Dib.4612]

2 minutes ago, Nazarick.9653 said:

 

Trouble is, if they did that they're bound to leave everything else untouched out of laziness...and the floodgates of QQ would open quite quickly when attempting to kill anything in HoT (mob difficulty), travel anywhere in PoF (stupid aggro range+respawn rates) or land a single hit on anything in EoD. (CC spam, patrols, aggro range etc.)

It would obviously require not just the change I mentioned, but rework of other dynamics too. 

This, also obviously, is something that can be done, not problem. Will require time and work, as all changes do.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

At least , we don't have to listen to raiders telling us that we don't need the Turtles and we should leave the Soon-Won open world meta meta to them (where even they they don't do it after a year ,   like Marriornete + Clearing Ire +Tripple Trouble) 😛

 

brb 

  Reveal hidden contents

(the good part is the majority distanced themseles forums for now , lets see if "some people" can push for more hardcore stuff + OW , as they planned:P Then they will start blaming the old gg again at octomber for the lack of exciting things , and we will continue the circle next year 😛)

 

Don't project your own game play onto others. Dragon's End is one of the most run metas in EoD and given the supply of EoD only materials into the trading post, the expansion is alive and kicking (even if its already been integrated into meta trains, including DE).

So bitter. What happened? The game is doing well (even with more instanced content than before and overall player skill increasing, and/or power creept). Shouldn't you be happy? Or is it this hard to accept that other types of players enjoy this game too?

I bet you'd wished that EoD failed miserably and the studio went into maintanance mode, only to be "right". Sounds like a lot of fun.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

44 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Don't project your own game play onto others. Dragon's End is one of the most run metas in EoD and given the supply of EoD only materials into the trading post, the expansion is alive and kicking (even if its already been integrated into meta trains, including DE).

So bitter. What happened? The game is doing well (even with more instanced content than before and overall player skill increasing, and/or power creept). Shouldn't you be happy? Or is it this hard to accept that other types of players enjoy this game too?

I bet you'd wished that EoD failed miserably and the studio went into maintanance mode, only to be "right". Sounds like a lot of fun.

Your right , i might be bitter .

I better go in the WvW forums  and tell people that they shouldn't ask for faster aquisition of the Legendary armor in the WvW , if they cant play Raids .

That way more people will flock into raids

 

(brb for some months .Lets hope that the OW wil choose what is bets of them in Reddit .I myself will ask for OW PvP 😛)

Edited May 5, 2023 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[The Boz.2038]

6 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Your right , i might be bitter .

I better go in the WvW forums  and tell people that they shouldn't ask for faster aquisition of the Legendary armor in the WvW , if they cant play Raids .

That way more people will flock into raids

 

(brb for some months .Lets hope that the OW wil choose what is bets of them in Reddit .I myself will ask for OW PvP 😛)

What a laughable misrepresentation of what was said. Wow.

[Cyninja.2954]

8 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Your right , i might be bitter .

I better go in the WvW forums  and tell people that they shouldn't ask for faster aquisition of the Legendary armor in the WvW , if they cant play Raids .

That way more people will flock into raids

 

(brb for some months)

Not sure what your fixation with raids is, but as far as WvW and legendary armor: yes, the game mode does just fine with the way the armor is implemented. Funny enough (or sadly rather), over the years most of the players which demanded "faster" legendary armor disappeared from WvW the moment they where done. That's NOT something good or strive worthy.

So let's chuck that off as another one of the ideas where I stand by what I said (even if misrepresented by you), even if you want to paint it as somehow a bad idea.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Omega.6801]

6 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

Not gonna happen unfortunately, too many open world casuals that would cry and complain for weeks. Every time they try to make content a little bit more difficult the casuals get a complete meltdown 

^^this
Just look at what happened when they introduced an open world event that doesn't roll over and die from spamming autoattacks.

[Jedrik.3109]

4 hours ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

At least , we don't have to listen to raiders telling us that we don't need the Turtles and we should leave the Soon-Won open world meta meta to them (where even they they don't do it after a year ,   like Marriornete + Clearing Ire +Tripple Trouble) 😛

 

brb 

  Hide contents

(the good part is the majority distanced themseles forums for now , lets see if "some people" can push for more hardcore stuff + OW , as they planned:P Then they will start blaming the old gg again at octomber for the lack of exciting things , and we will continue the circle next year 😛)

 

Hi. I am a raider. I run trainings every weekend. I build new player groups for the Ready Check Cup Raid tournaments. And I run a open world meta train for 5 hours every mon-thurs ending with Dragon's End. I have every night names I recognize from pug raids. Please stop projecting and sowing division amoung us. Please stop pigeon holing players into game modes. There is a lot of diversity, compassion and help in all the game modes. And this constant incessive attitude towards each other is beneath us.

[Linken.6345]

Funny enough OP back at release mobs used to walk out of your aoes but it was to hard for people to grasp so Anet had to dumb the mobs down.

[Ashen.2907]

Didnt mobs, at least some of them, do things like evade, move out of player aoe, and so on during the final betas back in 2012? That behavior, if I am not mistaken, was largely culled due to player complaints. 

That said, the player base as a whole is likely to be more able to handle some such now than was the case before launch.

OP, the thing that prevents people from transitioning to PvP and WvW from OW PvE is not a lack of difficulty in OW PvE but rather a dislike of competitive gaming and the perceived toxicity of those two game modes.

[Infusion.7149]

Chrono wells are bad enough , soulbeast trap(s), and so are the catalyst jade spheres and glyph of storms. Anything with 3 or 5s duration fields would be unusable.

If you really want a challenge go play PvP or WvW, leave the super AI powered mobs out of PvE. There is already randomization of attack patterns present in PvE.

[knives.6345]

At least make Elite/Champion better than a damage sponge. You can leave normal to veteran mobs the way it is.

While we are at it, please update boss AI. Seeing people bypass mechanics on Claw of Jormag.. O_O We just stand on one spot and cheese the thing. Dragon looks straight while we are on it's feet. Needs to learn the claw smash from Soo-Won lol.

Oh and don't get me started on Teq and Drakkar..

I think attack patterns should be random. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

Funny enough OP back at release mobs used to walk out of your aoes but it was to hard for people to grasp so Anet had to dumb the mobs down.

I don't think there's anything to grasp there.  It complicates balance for a negligible payoff in terms of engaging gameplay.  It's another idea that sounds sensible, but in practice isn't worth it.