disable stealth for first 10 seconds at the start of 2s and 3s - OR - limit stealth duration stack per class

[felix.2386]

stealth/teleport is in fact one of the most prohibited imbalanced mechanics in the history of all PvP-related games.

as such real PvP games restrict these mechanics, by locking behind heavy punishments,

such as:

high cooldown

or/and long animation

or/and super short range

or/and are given to all characters for equal footing.

such mechanics are impossible to balance to a point, as long as it is viable, it will be the best choice. for it is no interactive gameplay, as you will always have the upper hand of action.

and the only way is to minimize these skill functions and/or give it to every character

Edited May 9, 2023 by felix.2386

[felix.2386]

All DPS builds of classes that have teleport/stealth uses these mechanics.

and have always been the best DPS builds

[Zex Anthon.8673]

Stealth doesn't need disable at the start of match.

Stealth needs two things

1. Reveal on skill cast not on hit
2. Reveal on leaving stealth

Edited May 9, 2023 by Zex Anthon.8673

[Frequency.6407]

Why not just disable mass stealth skills for 10 sec? No need to punish thieves when AoE stealth is the main culprit, not individual stealth skills.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

6 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Restrict stealth to 3s that can't be prolonged/stacked after which you get revealed for 3s. 
Problem solved.

Actually I really think you're on to something with this suggestion and I REALLY hope that Arenanet reads this.

Maybe maximum stealth durations should vary from class to class, like health pools.

Off the top of my head:

1. War - 3s
2. Guard - 3s
3. Herald - 3s
4. Ranger - 3s
5. Engi - 3s
6. Thief - Unlimited
7. Mes - 6s
8. Necro - 3s
9. Ele - 3s

I would imagine the mechanics should function as, no matter where a class is receiving the stealth from, it can only be buffed to the maximum duration for that class. IE: a Thief blasting stealth on a War could keep resetting the maximum 3s to 3s, but it could never prebuff the War over 3s of stealth. So if anyone really wanted to keep a full team in-stealth, they'd essentially have to stop and stand still and perpetually blast, which is a fair trade off imo considering they can't rotate normally will perma stealthing, outside of Thief which gets to be an exception for obvious reasons.

This is actually amazingly ideal because it wouldn't change much gameplay at all concerning something like DH using Trap Runes to do its thing, but what it would suppress is very specifically the problem with cycling waaay too large & elongated of full team stealth prebuff for full party stealth ganks.

@Cal Cohen.2358 

[Bazsi.2734]

49 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Actually I really think you're on to something with this suggestion and I REALLY hope that Arenanet reads this.

Maybe maximum stealth durations should vary from class to class, like health pools.

Off the top of my head:

1. War - 3s
2. Guard - 3s
3. Herald - 3s
4. Ranger - 3s
5. Engi - 3s
6. Thief - Unlimited
7. Mes - 6s
8. Necro - 3s
9. Ele - 3s

I would imagine the mechanics should function as, no matter where a class is receiving the stealth from, it can only be buffed to the maximum duration for that class. IE: a Thief blasting stealth on a War could keep resetting the maximum 3s to 3s, but it could never prebuff the War over 3s of stealth. So if anyone really wanted to keep a full team in-stealth, they'd essentially have to stop and stand still and perpetually blast, which is a fair trade off imo considering they can't rotate normally will perma stealthing, outside of Thief which gets to be an exception for obvious reasons.

This is actually amazingly ideal because it wouldn't change much gameplay at all concerning something like DH using Trap Runes to do its thing, but what it would suppress is very specifically the problem with cycling waaay too large & elongated of full team stealth prebuff for full party stealth ganks.

@Cal Cohen.2358 

This would require a-net rewrite code they haven't touched in 14 years. Every boon, stealth, superspeed all apply the same way, the cap on their duration is universal. If you want to tie that cap to class, you have to write new code. And given how it takes them 4-6 months to change something as simple as a power coefficient, how realistic is to ask the devs to familiarise themselves with 14 year old code just for PvP-s sake? 

Not to mention this is a terrible idea:
- If I want to meme on a bombkit engineer, one of the fun things I have access to is a long stealth with timing multiple blasts into my smokefield. Why should I not be able to do that? This goes for anything with a smokefield btw.
- Or why bother bringing a smokescale on ranger, if getting a 6 second stealth to walk up to an enemy isn't an option?
- Thief doesn't need an unlimited cap for stealth(the current global cap is around 15 seconds with 5 stacks), you benefit from SA by entering and leaving stealth as fast as possible. Sometimes running away with next to no health makes having 5-6 seconds of stealth useful, anything above that value is a waste. Part of being a "good" thief is recognising that, and not stacking stealth over that treshold.
- Mesmer having a 6 second cap is at odds with PU. Whats the point of combining an elite and a grandmaster trait to get 10 seconds of stealth(which slowly stacks boons) when the game caps you at 6 seconds? 

So this idea just expects the devs to put in a lot of work to overall make the game worse. Hard pass.

[Endorphin.9147]

8 easy tricks / you'll never lose a 2v2 again! All the confused forum reactors HATE stealth. You wont believe number 6!

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

All the Thief mains getting irate.

Look boys, as you can see in my previous post, I do not wish for Thief to have any nerfing to stealth.

But in all seriousness, not every class should be a DP Daredevil level stealth potential. It just needs to stop. It makes the game's flavor bad, unfun redundant mechanics. Right now Guild Wars 2 plays like "The Stealth Invisible Predator vs. Alien Star Trek Cloak Device Hasboro Battleship Wars 2". There is seriously too much stealthing in this game to where it has become stale & annoying, and has presented really messed up complex balance issues that would be easily solved by simply restricting such flourishing amounts of stealth.

The level of stealth in GW2 is seriously oversaturated, causing too many problems, and they need to change something. If you don't agree with the current suggestions, then toss some actual suggestions rather than just Thief defense. Right now the only people I'm seeing who are opposed to what's being presented here are worried Thief mains.

Again, I specifically pointed out that Thief should be the ONLY class that has unlimited stealth access, which it was designed for. The others on the other hand, do not need to constantly be in stealth. It has broken the foundational design of the game, and is largely responsible for several balance issues that are commonly discussed.

They need to cut out A LOT of the stealth from this game.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Bazsi.2734]

11 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

All the Thief mains getting irate.

Look boys, as you can see in my previous post, I do not wish for Thief to have any nerfing to stealth.

But in all seriousness, not every class should be a DP Daredevil level stealth potential. It just needs to stop. It makes the game's flavor bad. Right now Guild Wars 2 plays like "The Stealth Invisible Predator vs. Alien Star Trek Cloak Device Hasboro Battleship Wars 2". There is seriously too much stealthing in this game to where it has become redundant & silly.

It'd be like if you watched Lord Of The Rings and EVERY character had the Ring Of Power and EVERY scene was about people turning invisible, for 3 movies straight.

The level of stealth in GW2 is seriously oversaturated and they need to change something. If you don't agree with the current suggestions, then toss some actual suggestions.

Put an elevated platform in the middle of the maps with an interactable object that reveals the entire map with a short channel. Make narrow stairs lead up to there straight from spawn. It requires map reworks, and maybe some coding on top, so it absolutely won't be done, but this is still way better than anything else I've seen suggested.
And I came up with this in 20 seconds, I wish people actually thought about their ideas before blurting them out.

Edit: I meant TDM maps, not conquest ones. If you can't deal with stealth there, l2p.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Bazsi.2734

[TheBigPlay.7504]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

All the Thief mains getting irate.

Look boys, as you can see in my previous post, I do not wish for Thief to have any nerfing to stealth.

But in all seriousness, not every class should be a DP Daredevil level stealth potential. It just needs to stop. It makes the game's flavor bad, unfun redundant mechanics. Right now Guild Wars 2 plays like "The Stealth Invisible Predator vs. Alien Star Trek Cloak Device Hasboro Battleship Wars 2". There is seriously too much stealthing in this game to where it has become stale & annoying, and has presented really messed up complex balance issues that would be easily solved by simply restricting such flourishing amounts of stealth.

The level of stealth in GW2 is seriously oversaturated, causing too many problems, and they need to change something. If you don't agree with the current suggestions, then toss some actual suggestions rather than just Thief defense. Right now the only people I'm seeing who are opposed to what's being presented here are worried Thief mains.

Again, I specifically pointed out that Thief should be the ONLY class that has unlimited stealth access, which it was designed for. The others on the other hand, do not need to constantly be in stealth. It has broken the foundational design of the game, and is largely responsible for several balance issues that are commonly discussed.

They need to cut out A LOT of the stealth from this game.

Mr. sick em ranger main is a thief hater, he has been for a long time. this is just dumb plz stop.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 5/8/2023 at 6:45 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Just put a 10s reveal on everyone when the match first starts

Change On My Mark, Sic Em, and other targeted revealed skills to apply revealed a short radius around the target as well.

Also thief would like to play in 2s/3s without being a dead weight. This further trivializes their usefulness in even player fights for the sake of a few professions that have other team roles they can gravitate to. 

12 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

So it takes over 10 years for average player to finally notice that unbalanced mechanic is in fact unbalanced? Wow, noted, 10 more years if this game will exist by that time we may see topics about boons and conditions.
Restrict stealth to 3s that can't be prolonged/stacked after which you get revealed for 3s. 
Problem solved.

We get it you hate stealth

Quote

All the Thief mains getting irate.

You'd be irate too if you were trying to make thief work in this setting. Provide a solution that doesnt make Thiefs meager usefulness in TDM worse.

Applying 10 seconds of revealed to everyone at the start of the match makes thieves easy pickings for heralds, willbenders, untamed/soulbeasts and other professions that can cross the map quickly. 

Quote

Profession specific stealth durations

Better, but I still think preventing stealth opens should be the duty of someones utility bar instead of baked in to the game.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[FiveBunnies.5730]

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Right now the only people I'm seeing who are opposed to what's being presented here are worried Thief mains.

I am not a thief mains. I don't play as a thief at all. But I really do not think they should get weaker. Thieves who have a well-developed skill stealth, have less-developed damage skills. It's balance, I think! 

Being a thief is hard. It's a hard class. I admire it if it's played well, that's all.

Edited May 9, 2023 by FiveBunnies.5730

[Jedrik.3109]

No.

[Burnfall.9573]

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

All the Thief mains getting irate.

Look boys, as you can see in my previous post, I do not wish for Thief to have any nerfing to stealth.

But in all seriousness, not every class should be a DP Daredevil level stealth potential. It just needs to stop. It makes the game's flavor bad, unfun redundant mechanics. Right now Guild Wars 2 plays like "The Stealth Invisible Predator vs. Alien Star Trek Cloak Device Hasboro Battleship Wars 2". There is seriously too much stealthing in this game to where it has become stale & annoying, and has presented really messed up complex balance issues that would be easily solved by simply restricting such flourishing amounts of stealth.

The level of stealth in GW2 is seriously oversaturated, causing too many problems, and they need to change something. If you don't agree with the current suggestions, then toss some actual suggestions rather than just Thief defense. Right now the only people I'm seeing who are opposed to what's being presented here are worried Thief mains.

Again, I specifically pointed out that Thief should be the ONLY class that has unlimited stealth access, which it was designed for. The others on the other hand, do not need to constantly be in stealth. It has broken the foundational design of the game, and is largely responsible for several balance issues that are commonly discussed.

They need to cut out A LOT of the stealth from this game.

 

I believe that no Professions should have unlimited access. It would completely destroy fair competition. 

 

What I propose is for only Thief Profession to have access to Stealth Mechanic; with a complete fair competition rework mechanic.

 

For stealth to be only Thief Profession Identity, role and its lore.

For Stealth Mechanic to be only assigned to Thief Profession!!

 

(here is what I find beyond Baffling and Ludicrous. in Pve Story...the only Profession who use and have access to Stealth Mechanic, are Thief Profession characters. So, Anet assigned Stealth Mechanic only to Thief Profession in the Pve story and Broke Thief Profession, Uniqueness, Identity, Role and Lore in PvP and WvW?)

 

Here we have 3 game modes ..where Stealth Mechanic is assigned to only Thief Profession in 1 game mode..PvE-story ?

 

Why the bias?

Edited May 9, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Khalisto.5780]

I dunno calling for nerfs in 2s and 3s is uuggghhh

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 5/9/2023 at 2:23 PM, Khalisto.5780 said:

I dunno calling for nerfs in 2s and 3s is uuggghhh

It just needs to happen due to no nodes there to incentivize being revealed for taking/defending.

[Kuma.1503]

In the long run, I would like Anet to try their hand at making stealth more healthy AND reworking thief/mes around it. 

For thief, one path they could take is to make them the premiere choice for both bunker-busting and focusing down a target that has a support glued to it. 

They should have unrivaled boon rip and single target damage potential. Perhaps also give them improved poision in deadly arts that reduces a greater portion of incoming healing, making them even more anti-bunker and anti-support. Lot of different ways Anet could approach it. 

[apharma.3741]

2v2 and 3v3 TDM the way it is now promotes 2 things:
1. Alpha strike is king. Anything on any class that will let you eliminate 1 person from the other team should give you the win.

2. It eliminates the entire concept of balancing around cool down due to cool downs being reset between rounds.

The mode is flawed, ANet doesn't balance around it for good reason and you shouldn't either. It was designed to be a fun little thing between seasons but over they years we've seen just how broken stuff can be in each case. Do not look at 2v2 and 3v3 TDM as something good, look at it as a cautionary tale of how broken the game can be without the checks and balances in sPvP.

[Exalted Quality.8534]

Revealed is far too weak of a mechanic to consider it counterplay for stealth. Also, gating it behind traits/skills is poor design. 

- Rework skills/traits that provide reveal to give something more useful instead 

- Reveal should occur when a stealthed player uses any skill or gets hit with any attack 

- Stealth should reduce your movement speed considerably...pretty stupid to think you can be sneaking around in superspeed

- The base duration of reveal should be increased slightly 

- Reveal should apply a stack of vulnerability for every second the revealed player was in stealth 

- As a bonus, for every second a player is invulnerable, there should apply a stack of vulnerability applied to them 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

22 minutes ago, Exalted Quality.8534 said:

Revealed is far too weak of a mechanic to consider it counterplay for stealth. Also, gating it behind traits/skills is poor design. 

- Rework skills/traits that provide reveal to give something more useful instead 

- Reveal should occur when a stealthed player uses any skill or gets hit with any attack 

- Stealth should reduce your movement speed considerably...pretty stupid to think you can be sneaking around in superspeed

- The base duration of reveal should be increased slightly 

- Reveal should apply a stack of vulnerability for every second the revealed player was in stealth 

- As a bonus, for every second a player is invulnerable, there should apply a stack of vulnerability applied to them 

Do you think there should be any rebalances made to weapon sets and traits for classes that rely on stealth for defense (thief and to an extent mesmer) if all of this were to be granted? Or do you think it would be reasonable to expect them to adapt to the entire list? 

Elaborate. I'd like to know if you thought this through. There's a lot of implications here that would crop up. For example

Quote

- Reveal should occur when a stealthed player uses any skill or gets hit with any attack 

 Stealth should reduce your movement speed considerably...pretty stupid to think you can be sneaking around in superspeed

- The base duration of reveal should be increased slightly 

- Reveal should apply a stack of vulnerability for every second the revealed player was in stealth 

Thought experiment.

Lets say you are a thief. Someone sees you,  and you stealth after they see you (since it is unreasonable to expect people would permastealth since you want a movement speed reduction in stealth).

Because you stealthed, you cannot move very fast, so it would be easy to hit you with an AOE that is aimed at your approximate location.

It would be fair to you if you were revealed automatically (and thus your damaging skill disabled) for over 3 seconds, and then given vulnerability on top of that, before you've done anything?

Edited May 16, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Exalted Quality.8534]

5 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Do you think there should be any rebalances made to weapon sets and traits for classes that rely on stealth for defense (thief and to an extent mesmer) if all of this were to be granted? Or do you think it would be reasonable to expect them to adapt to the entire list? 

Elaborate. I'd like to know if you thought this through. There's a lot of implications here that would crop up. For example

Thought experiment.

Lets say you are a thief. Someone sees you,  and you stealth after they see you (since it is unreasonable to expect people would permastealth since you want a movement speed reduction in stealth).

Because you stealthed, you cannot move very fast, so it would be easy to hit you with an AOE that is aimed at your approximate location.

It would be fair to you if you were revealed automatically (and thus your damaging skill disabled) for over 3 seconds, and then given vulnerability on top of that, before you've done anything?

i wouldn't expect them to implement the entire list...those were just some rando suggestions. the biggest problem with stealth is that there is no downside to it at all. you can superspeed, shadowstep, miss an attack, etc. with no penalty.  figure out a better counterplay mechanism than garbage revealed and stealth could be less kittenous for competitive.

[Farseer.1349]

On 5/8/2023 at 7:13 PM, shion.2084 said:

Said it before will say it again, stealth , ports, invuln,  should all come with a debuf  to power and condition damage for a fixed time after they are performed (or end).  

Yes. And some extra. Debuff on coldowns, so thief couldn't port each 3-4 seconds.

It should be some kind of exhaustion. Not energy, but endurance. When your endurance is empty, you must lose any ability to blink around for... It should work like defiance bar.

 

Otherwise one cannot catch any thief. I literaly do not want to fight thieves unless we are party or 10+. Then we hunt, again and again. because we hate thief class and hate people that find it FUNNY. It's not fun,.when coward is always blinking away for 1 screen away, then blinking back, then blinking away, then blinking back.

 

Yes, I am talking about spectre. Plus invis. So blink-invis-blink-invis-blink-invis. How can one fight such imbalanced monstrocity? Who created this monster? Why does it still exist in the game?

It's fine for thief to have blink and invis, but the must be LIMITED.

 

Just look at the Willbender. Yes, some movement skills, but still worse than thief's ones. And look at cooldowns. They all are at least 14/20-25 seconds. Just compare with thief's few seconds.

So, longer cooldowns and just few charges.

Yes, let guardian be the game benchmark.

 

And I know, I said it before. Guardian is the only class without reliable moving skills(bad blinks, only to friend or foe, do not tp you to upper level - because of "novalidpath" BShi), without any kind of invis(even ranger has it now, DH trap invis is BAD), without barrier. Hammer is slow. GS LoF is bugged(usually leaps you backward). Also guardian has the worst CC in the game.

So yes, leave guardian untouched, but nerf others. There is no way to buff guardian without giving reliable barrier(which other classes have!!!).

[Farseer.1349]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:28 AM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

So it takes over 10 years for average player to finally notice that unbalanced mechanic is in fact unbalanced? Wow, noted, 10 more years if this game will exist by that time we may see topics about boons and conditions.
Restrict stealth to 3s that can't be prolonged/stacked after which you get revealed for 3s. 
Problem solved.

I said it in 2015. Nobody listened. All were saying it was fine. Nobody should be allowed to combine blink/invis/evade in such manner. Nobody would want to fight such monster.

And know what? What can you do with a party of 5 spectres? Nothing, you will not catch even one of them. Clown fiesta. I have to ask squad to come and hunt these... I will keep bad words, which are definitely bannable. But thief class is the only one which truely deserves such words. I don't believe any honest, fair person IN REAL LIFE will play something like THIS. It's like to be criminal in real life. Yes, to be a thief, a gangster.

Is this some kind of gansta simulator? Definitely,. should be fixed.

If we have gangsters in this game, there must be vigilants/judges. And there is one class to JUDGE the criminals. The one with shield icon. Thieves must be scared to even see guardian, as they used to before retal was removed. Without retal thief players mock all other players.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Farseer.1349

[Farseer.1349]

On 5/9/2023 at 9:21 PM, FiveBunnies.5730 said:

Thieves who have a well-developed skill stealth, have less-developed damage skills. It's balance, I think! 

No, try to fight such thief with a Willbender. Just try to catch your opponent. You cannot. Theif always goes away. What's the point of Willbender to have high damage potantial, if WB cannot even realise it on practice? To deal damage, you must hit your foe at the spot. But foe will not stand still.

Pay attention, thieves do not fight Spellbreakers with hammer. They know. THEY WILL DIE IN STUN. Thief players always attack those that cannot catch/root.

And, let me tell you one thing that oddly exists in this game. DH has one trap(Light's Judgement) that reveals AND dazes enemy. But it doesn't work on thieves in invis state. So yes, thief comes, activates the trap, still invised and not dazed, blinking away.

How is this possible? Why are thieves allowed to activate L's J trap and go away?

In my opinion, THIS TRAP MUST REVEAL ANY ENEMY THAT STEPS ON IT. I am not speaking about giving such option to all traps. But at least this one.

For now thieves are not scared of this trap. It simply doesn't work vs them. Moreover, it doesn't work on engi and ranger too. They come, activate, step back. Nice!

Sadly, it's truth. This trap must reveal and daze, making enemy being unable to use any skill. At least for a moment. Not like ATM.

[jdawgie.1835]

On 5/13/2023 at 12:43 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

In the long run, I would like Anet to try their hand at making stealth more healthy AND reworking thief/mes around it. 

For thief, one path they could take is to make them the premiere choice for both bunker-busting and focusing down a target that has a support glued to it. 

They should have unrivaled boon rip and single target damage potential. Perhaps also give them improved poision in deadly arts that reduces a greater portion of incoming healing, making them even more anti-bunker and anti-support. Lot of different ways Anet could approach it. 

Bro I could not AGREE MORE. This is exactly how my brain works too. But you know this requires A-net and this community to allow a class to excel at something and there be class identity and then not cry for nerfs. Which would certainly happen. Instead of raising a profession in the way you just suggested, and then doing that with all the classes and making this game fun. Man what a thought. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by jdawgie.1835