Are thieves a problem?

[Bazsi.2734]

48 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

You could always try to be honest and admit that you run out of logical arguments long ago instead of just pretending to be smart by digging through someones chat history for your dismissal "arguments".

I guess it went over your head. Reading your comments it's crystal clear you have a really heavy bias. So after you said I am biased(stating it through a question), I said the same about you except I pretty much proved it. So this talk about bias is just you projecting.
Understandeable, after all I usually project my approach on peolpe: wanting the game to be as diverse and as fun as possible. Even though the majority of players are attached to a class(having a main is so 2013), and they just want it to be strong, while wanting the rest to be weak. Sometimes it's even worse, like in your case:

50 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Boons, conditions and stealth are poorly implemented and balanced mechanics in this game. 

I don't understand why you are playing this game. With all the questionable "balance" desicision, neglect of PvP etc... the only reason I'm still around is that the core of the game, the combat system is good. But thats the very thing you hate. So why are you here? For the lack of content and poorly implemented systems?

53 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Diversity is fine, unbalanced one is not and we have the latter.

Diversity > Balance. There is a reason I like themepark MMO-s over shooters like CoD. Again, why are you playing this game?

[Okhu.7948]

Thieves are fine. Sorry you got bullied enough to make a thread though.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 5/26/2023 at 5:36 PM, Bazsi.2734 said:

 the core of the game, the combat system is good. But thats the very thing you hate. So why are you here? For the lack of content and poorly implemented systems?

For Trolling~

I can understand wanting a class already in the game to be better.  After all, the intent of that class is to have people play it.

My understanding and sympathies stop when players, having full knowledge of a games foundational systems and implementations, want those very things to be stripped with what can be construed as contempt for the people that managed to adapt and work with those systems. Stealth hasnt changed in implementation since the game shipped in 2012. You've had almost a decade of patches to start learning how to fight it, but you insist the... thousands? At least thousands. Thousands of thief/mes players relearn their kits instead.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

50 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

For Trolling~

I can understand wanting a class already in the game to be better.  After all, the intent of that class is to have people play it.

My understanding and sympathies stop when players, having full knowledge of a games foundational systems and implementations, want those very things to be stripped with what can be construed as contempt for the people that managed to adapt and work with those systems. Stealth hasnt changed in implementation since the game shipped in 2012. You've had almost a decade of patches to start learning how to fight it, but you insist the... thousands? At least thousands. Thousands of thief/mes players relearn their kits instead.

Stealth did technically change, they added restrictions on it and gave every class ways to combat stealth with Reveal which used to not exist before.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

Stealth did technically change, they added restrictions on it and gave every class ways to combat stealth with Reveal which used to not exist before.

This falls under "making classes better".

If you want or need reveal, go for it. Make that argument. That's markedly different than not being satisfied unless the entire mechanic systems you dont like are removed, and that is what some people are insisting on.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This falls under "making classes better".

If you want or need reveal, go for it. Make that argument. That's markedly different than not being satisfied unless the entire mechanic systems you dont like are redone, and that is what some people are insisting on.

I mean Reveal never existed, it was added onto stealth first ie if you attacked while stealth and the hit landed you self applied reveal then they added reveal on other classes. The actual stealth mechanic did change, it was a mixture of the mechanic changing and then they improved all other classes to fight stealth because of bad players not learning how to deal with the stealth mechanic that has only gotten easier to deal with over time.

Edited May 28, 2023 by BlaqueFyre.5678

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

I mean Reveal never existed, it was added onto stealth first ie if you attacked while stealth and the hit landed you self applied reveal then they added reveal on other classes. The actual stealth mechanic did change, it was a mixture of the mechanic changing and then they improved all other classes to fight stealth because of bad players not learning how to deal with the stealth mechanic that has only gotten easier to deal with over time.

That still falls under "making classes better". Revealed shipped in 2012 too. Adding more access to it doesnt change stealth's implementation, it just makes it harder to use.

I said this:

Quote

Stealth hasnt changed in implementation since the game shipped in 2012. You've had almost a decade of patches to start learning how to fight it-

The patches made stealth easier to counter, but didnt remove or drasically rework its existing implementation. 

That is what some people are demanding despite having years to figure it out.

 

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

7 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

That still falls under "making classes better". Revealed shipped in 2012 too. Adding more access to it doesnt change stealth's implementation, it just makes it harder to use.

I said this:

The patches made stealth easier to counter, but didnt remove or drasically rework its existing implementation. 

That is what some people are demanding despite having years to figure it out.

 

They did thought before Reveal was never on stealth before classes had it as an option they first added it to Stealth itself to self reveal on landing attacks before they added it to Stealth you could re-enter stealth right after landing an attack 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

before they added it to Stealth you could re-enter stealth right after landing an attack 

Oh? Never knew that. This must have been an ancient patch. When approximately did they change it? 

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

2 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Oh? Never knew that. This must have been an ancient patch. When approximately did they change it? 

Pre-launch and iirc it was even in the early access before official launch. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

36 minutes ago, BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

Pre-launch and iirc it was even in the early access before official launch. 

I mean... that's a beta though. I hardly think that counts, it could have easily just been a bug or unfinished.

Anyhow, learn stealth or ask for revealed, stealth here to stay.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Deadmoose.6594]

Sorry been away and haven't had time to read or reply to any of the comments here. As a mesmer main, my class just plays really bad against thieves. A player who is half decent can easily straight up ignore most mesmer attacks, and then if things happen to not go in their favor they can just run and hide and then return. This is undeniable and allegedly part of the chess match setup they have with the classes. This being said, I recently had a deadeye player message me during a match and tell me that I was the reason why my team was losing. That's never happened to me before and it's borderline harassment. This was also a top 25 ranked player, whereas I'm like probably #260 this season.

[Wild.1705]

@Deadmoose.6594 Regardless if it was true or not, that player was being toxic.

Without further information about the match, it is impossible to see if you were the problem or not. If the deadeye was farming you in the group fights or on side nodes and you died multiple times to him alone that does look bad and there may be a level of self fault.

From your posts it seems that you are more frustrated with the fact that they have many tools to escape and reset. This leads me to believe that you are side-nodeing and getting into 1v1s with thieves and even when you are about to win they peel and go elsewhere, only to eventually come back for seconds. In these situations it can be tricky to identify if holding onto the node you are on is the right play and it depends on the rest of your team. While you were at a sidemode fighting the thief before he peeled, did your team secure mid? After peeling did the thief player go mid and swing mid for his team killing all your team's players while you sat on a side-node waiting to see if he would return? In that case you should have gone mid to even out the numbers. However, if your team was holding mid strong or was able to get kills and force the enemy team players (including the thief) to trickle in while they held mid AND you were holding home guaranteeing 2 nodes for your team, then you were in the right and not killing the thief didn't mater because he had nowhere to go.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Wild.1705
Spelling

[Terrorhuz.4695]

All I'm saying is, the sheer amount of thieves claiming the class would be "defenseless" without stealth, when they have a gazillion dodges and blinds and ports and straight up immunity to conditions and perma swiftness and weakness after every dodge is.... well, wow.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

All I'm saying is, the sheer amount of thieves claiming the class would be "defenseless" without stealth, when they have a gazillion dodges and blinds and ports and straight up immunity to conditions and perma swiftness and weakness after every dodge is.... well, wow.

If thieves were as broken as you say they are then everyone would be playing them…. Yet there are more reapers, mechs, eles, and guardians than thieves playing pvp….. 

[Deadmoose.6594]

6 hours ago, Wild.1705 said:

@Deadmoose.6594 Regardless if it was true or not, that player was being toxic.

Without further information about the match, it is impossible to see if you were the problem or not. If the deadeye was farming you in the group fights or on side nodes and you died multiple times to him alone that does look bad and there may be a level of self fault.

From your posts it seems that you are more frustrated with the fact that they have many tools to escape and reset. This leads me to believe that you are side-nodeing and getting into 1v1s with thieves and even when you are about to win they peel and go elsewhere, only to eventually come back for seconds. In these situations it can be tricky to identify if holding onto the node you are on is the right play and it depends on the rest of your team. While you were at a sidemode fighting the thief before he peeled, did your team secure mid? After peeling did the thief player go mid and swing mid for his team killing all your team's players while you sat on a side-node waiting to see if he would return? In that case you should have gone mid to even out the numbers. However, if your team was holding mid strong or was able to get kills and force the enemy team players (including the thief) to trickle in while they held mid AND you were holding home guaranteeing 2 nodes for your team, then you were in the right and not killing the thief didn't mater because he had nowhere to go.

this is exactly correct, for whatever reason a lot of people I’m paired with lately don’t communicate well with who is going to defend home. That pretty much forces me to try to sidenode home because nobody else realizes the importance of keeping home tapped. So I’m basically left with 1v1ing which doesn’t usually end well on chrono depending. In this particular match though the deadeye hunted me everywhere I went, which is smart. It’s just the comments of telling me I was the reason why we were losing was the toxic part.

I think what this comes down to is that thief don’t have a counter.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

All I'm saying is, the sheer amount of thieves claiming the class would be "defenseless" without stealth, when they have a gazillion dodges and blinds and ports and straight up immunity to conditions and perma swiftness and weakness after every dodge is.... well, wow.

They're saying that because it's true. Your framing is incorrect. 

Remember when Chrono didn't have distortion/self shatter for that stretch of time and it kittening crumpled in on itself like a tin can?

It's that but half the base HP you're working with on mes. Just like people extrapolated chronobunker out to every chronomancer and got its core defensives axed, you're extrapolating unhindered D/P daredevil out to every thief without a grasp of how destructive the implication is to the class across professions.

blinds, a 50/50 shot at glancing, and 3 dodges wont protect 11k hp. Try it. Play no stealth power thief and see how long you live vs anything. If you want thief stealth as a whole reworked (it won't happen the game is built on it), then you're going to need to adjust the cooldowns of the thief inner workings and the damage scaling so they dont become punching bags for every class.

Mesmers have a strong opinion about Thieves because thieves frustrate their targeting requirements and make it really difficult for them to set up burst, but if mechanical counters were valid targets for axing Mesmers would have been obliterated a long time ago for what they do to warriors. See the bigger picture here. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[felix.2386]

everything exists now purely based on whether can it survive against thief gank.

no? Unviable.

yes? viable.

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, felix.2386 said:

everything exists now purely based on whether can it survive against thief gank.

no? Unviable.

yes? viable.

Isn't that how it's always been?

[KrHome.1920]

5 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Isn't that how it's always been?

True, finding a viable build has always been:

Step1: Can it oneshot or outheal a teef? Yes: => Step2 / No => unviable

Step2: Define which non thief builds you plan to counter in a fight that can't endlessly be reset by your target => Create your build

[Deadmoose.6594]

How does virt hold up against a thief? I need to unlock it still so haven't played one...

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

The problem isn't thief, it is stealth as implemented in this game. Thief unfortunately relies too heavily on stealth, so if we touch stealth then we'd need to tinker with Thief survivability as well.

There are things though that can be done that don't directly change stealth, just how we interact with it:

• Make all Reveal applications AoE applications around the caster without targeting required.
• Make it so that whiffed attacks while in stealth reveal the stealthed player.
• Make it so that hitting a stealthed target with strike damage displays a damage floater.

Give the Thief some extra toughness or vitality traits to compensate.

[Arheundel.6451]

I have yet to see a single thief on any spec, being cabable of facetanking damage without ever pressing the dodge button....I have yet have too see a single thief blocking, evading damage for what feels like a kittening eternity.....I have yet have too see a single thief going around spamming 111111 on their semi invincible condi bunker spec ..without you can guess, using that dodge button even once...I have yet to see a single thief bursting down while being invulnerable to all sources of damage....I have yet to see a single thief hiding behind a column while a tanky golem deals more dmg than a glass spec.....I have yet to see a single thief going around with their permaboon BS.

Never thought I'd see this day as I hate thieves as much as the next guy but...before I see another thief nerf, I want to see the complete stomping and destruction of these blocking, distortion, heal, evasions, condi spamming abusing specs....to see another thief nerf before any of the current atrocities is properly addressed...would be the end

[cyberzombie.7348]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 Comming from experience, there were builds that barely needed stealth to none at all, mainly in the form of sword builds. But ever since HoT, the viability for builds with in-combat defenses has been steadily nerfed. And it ranges from the acro nerfs since 2015 to the feb 2020 patch that also indirectly nerfed things like invigorating precision + malice signet combo.

Edited May 30, 2023 by cyberzombie.7348

[Arheundel.6451]

16 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

All I'm saying is, the sheer amount of thieves claiming the class would be "defenseless" without stealth, when they have a gazillion dodges and blinds and ports and straight up immunity to conditions and perma swiftness and weakness after every dodge is.... well, wow.

It can't be worst than mesmers crying about the lack of distortion first with chronos and then with virtuouso...similar mindset