when does the greed stop?

[Obtena.7952]

31 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

Your requirement was "advantage over other people" and I just listed a few things that grant you an advantage over other people by opening your wallet

Somehow, you concluded it's MORE advantageous for EVERYONE to simply spend RL money in the GS. That's not true. How people obtain GS items is just a matter of preference based on individual factors. Therefore, it's not generally true that people opening their wallets have the advantage over people doing gold conversion in this business model. 

I mean, it's even ridiculous to consider that somehow purchases in the GS even need to be fair to all players in the first place. They don't because it's not about being fair, it's about Anet running a business. The business model is no where NEAR greedy but that's definitely what some misunderstanding and entitled people want us to believe. 

My favourite part is where the under advantaged players who complain about Anet greed and don't make gem purchases fail to recognize that people who are 'paying to win' through the GS are subsidizing the game for them. Sure, let's talk about greedy then shall we? 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Donari.5237]

I don't know if this was already addressed (the thread got long before I got to it), but as to your point/lamentation addressing how very rare infusions drops are:  I agree that it's disheartening never to get one but if you are complaining that you aren't getting drops worth thousands of gold, well, if they dropped a lot they wouldn't be selling for thousands of gold and you'd be ignoring them as fun loot.  Just look at all the green and blue drops.  At game launch when everything was new I was *thrilled* to get the pirate hat from my first dungeon. Now it's insta-salvage.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

21 hours ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

So Pay To Skip or Pay for Convenience, like Planetside 2 or ESO or WoW essentially.  

GW2 monetization involves selling the game, expansions (which include the base game these days) and a store filled with cosmetics, convenience and QoL items, none of which are required.  If that warrants a "term," then Pay to Skip, Pay for Convenience, or Pay for Stuff You Don't Really Need all work fine.

I only take exception to the misappropriation of Pay to Win because P2W has a very severe negative connotation due to its origins, and some people appropriate the term because of that negativity.  Typically, they dislike some aspect of the game's monetization and are trying to generate agreement because they think ANet might change something they dislike if enough people play the "Bad" card.  Small wonder, that's the status quo on social media these days.

[Tinker.6924]

Tell me you have no clue about economics without telling me you have no clue about economics.

But please, keep it shorter next time...

[Vayne.8563]

10 hours ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

You're refusing to state what model GW2 uses, because you don't want to admit anything, you'd rather skirt around the answer, and answer it with a question without actually providing one. You don't think GW2 is pay to win? Right on! What do you think it is then?

It's buy to play. You buy it, you play it.

[Vayne.8563]

8 hours ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

Looks like you speaking the truth ruffled some feathers here lol

People don't agree with you, being snarky doesn't make you correct. It only makes you snarky.

P2W had an original definition. It was buying stuff in the cash shop to get power in a competitive mode. That is, people spending money could kill you more easily. Pay to win games meant you had to keep spending money in the gem store to stay current. It never covered things like expansions, because expansions in virtually every game raises levels and levels make you more powerful.

It doesn't cover quality of life either.

Now you could buy gems, sell them and get a legendary weapon and that's definitely a short cut, but it's not more powerful stat wise than an ascended weapon, and there are ways to get those now by playing in a reasonable amount of time. 

This game is buy to play. Instead of a sub, it uses a cash shop. People will pay for convenience, or they'll do things that hard way and that's a choice.

In a truly pay to win game, there was no choice.

[lezbefriends.7516]

12 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

P2W had an original definition.

 

  No, it didn't. That's like saying there's a standard definition for 'hipster'... Everyone just generalizes. Also, "had" is past tense. Words evolve over time, you know....

11 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

 

In a truly pay to win game, there was no choice.

You've clearly not played other P2W games. Of course there's a choice in P2W, you can choose to progress at a snail's pace or save hundreds of hours of grind with a few dollars.

[Freya.9075]

41 minutes ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

You've clearly not played other P2W games. Of course there's a choice in P2W, you can choose to progress at a snail's pace or save hundreds of hours of grind with a few dollars.

Tell that to people who played games like fiesta online. And ask if there was a choice or not. Wasn’t even a snail pace progress there. If you didn’t buy exp boost you would be like a little bedbug trying to walk from the earth to the moon. Sure, you’ll arrive like 1000 years after your death. If you wanted to enchant your gear or weapons to +9, you need to buy “stones” from gemstore or they would probably break no matter how valuable the gear piece or weapon is. It was “only” 75% chance for it to break and you only had to repeat this game of RNG 6 times. Unless it failed which it also did like 75% of the times you try. Everyone would ofc take that risk after spending hundreds of hours farming for their gear piece or weapon.

And “cosmetic items” had additional power and defence stats and paying for “gemstore items” with ingame gold  would end up you being scammed after farming hundreds of hours for an one pair of pants you only had for 30 days because of their “amazing” trading system. If I didn’t stop playing that game, I would be bonking goblins in the head with my mace still to this day and only be level 30. Not to mention when you get to level 100 and the grind for exp gets even tougher. Yes, I’m still salty and scarred after trying that game 👀

Ok, time for me to go outside and touch some grass. Well played little troll well played! 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Freya.9075

[ChouChou.1408]

On 5/24/2023 at 6:42 AM, Holmindeboks.3490 said:

yes the game is free to play after buying but it isn't fully free because it's a fashion game and fashion is only buyable with gems at most times.

I mean it's a F2P game. You play the game for free but spend your money in the gem store. That's how ANet and NC make money.
Second, you should be glad that at least the game is not selling legendary gears for cash like the Chinese server. Which totally turns the game into P2W.

[Bladestrom.6425]

Pay to win (when referred to as a negative) is well understood, it refers to a game which is designed cynically, where there is a pressure to buy items to have a strong advantage over those that do not buy.  GW2 obviously is not that, last time i checked my sparkly shoulders didn't give me a an unfair power boost, unless dazzling my opponent with shiny stuff counts.

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

  No, it didn't. That's like saying there's a standard definition for 'hipster'... Everyone just generalizes. Also, "had" is past tense. Words evolve over time, you know....

You've clearly not played other P2W games. Of course there's a choice in P2W, you can choose to progress at a snail's pace or save hundreds of hours of grind with a few dollars.

Try Maple Story, or Rune of Magic. Anyone who thinks this game is pay to win doesn't know what a pay to win game is. 

[Holmindeboks.3490]

20 hours ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

I don't know about you, but this sounds like games don't have much to offer you anymore. Games have changed but you haven't, something along those lines. You are forcing yourself to chase a carrot on a stick. It seems you know that, but I'm not sure if you're aware of the implications. But if a friend of mine would come to me and tell me what you wrote in this comment, I would advise them to stop gaming for a while. MMO's already aren't your first choice. You came to MMO's because your first choice in games isn't to your liking anymore. And by your own admission you're not a MMO player, as if that already hadn't been made clear with your previous posts. The threshold for dissatisfaction is already a lot lower when you engage in something that isn't really your thing, as opposed to something you do like. In the case of the latter you're much more likely to focus on aspects that you do still like, but in the case of the former anything you don't like will be a detractor to the game and overshadow potential positive aspects. It's like you're subconsciously looking for a reason to not play the game but stop short of drawing the conclusion and acting accordingly.

My advise would be: stop playing the game, if only for a little while. Maybe you'll find renewed interest in this second choice of yours over time, or maybe you decide you don't want to come back at all anymore because this alternative to what you really like isn't doing it for you. Forget about the gold. Remind yourself that MMO's are games with long term goals. Instant satisfaction comes from playing the game, not from the loot it drops. But continuing down this path will not bring you any kind of satisfaction. You just have the wrong expectations of this game, and MMO's in general. I get bored out of my mind by FPS games and PvP shooters, but if I ever come to the point I don't like MMO's anymore I am not going to resort to a game genre I didn't like in the first place, certainly not with the same expectations. That's just setting yourself up for disappointment. If you're just in it for the trophy but you hate the race, maybe this is not for you.

Well said. Thnx. Its true. Games has not much to offer. Atleast online games doesnt. 
 

 

and about guildwars 2. Its indeed pay to skip. If you are a veteran player then all can be fine and build up some nice things. If you are new then its a looing grind   First of all you have to buy 3 expansions  then 27 living world seasons for 200 gems each. 1 is free BUT only if you have bought the expansion. 
 

in wow its easy to make gold because the gold doesnt affect blizzards income, also the wow market is shared between some servers and not all. So getting undercut is smaller chance. I once crafted kudzu for sale, place on tp cost 154 gold and i got undercut 16 TIMES. So much gold was lost.  
 

in guildwars 2 its hard to make gold because if everyone is rich they only convert gold to gems. So veterans have often no problems and made some nice gold when mats where worth something. These days events with so many chests make mats worthless and so you have to grind even more for gold. Look the perma contracts from bl chests  their price drop is huge. The more players play the harder it is to make gold. 
If you want to craft a legendary takes much time and if you convert the whole price to gems you have a mount skin and a few more and thats it. While if you spend real cash is much easier and cheaper compared to time spend. I had once a guildy he bought gems every month for 100 euro because that was only 2 hours work for him irl. Imagine working ingame for the same amount of gems you could get for 100 euro. That takes years. So yes gems are expensive if you buy with gold. 
 

i am a person who want something back, before when i got a nice item i got happy about the game and spend some money on gems. Because they deserves it. I havent bought gems after EoD expension if i remember. I mean there must be a balance, i get fun they get my money, not only junk loot and if i want something i have to spend even more. I always buy the most expensive edition also for the gems. But after release of EoD my fun got less and the hate started. I mean the beginning of the expansion was a desaster for me, i hate storys, as i said the maps are beautiful, besides the elite specs, what did the xpack offer? The xpack got 4 maps with FOUR big events, BUT only soo-won has a reward. Sure the echovalt backpack is nice skin. But only soo-won have a reward but many ppl from the guild got their kill on soo-won and me i got fail after fail to work my ss off for a kill that didnt happen. How do you feel after wasting 1 hour for a pre event and then the endboss fails. And that every time. To start the turtle mastery, many ppl got it… oke you understand me. EoD is a fail. The other 3 events is just more chest with more mats or junk loot to decrease mats price even more. Fishing is not what i expected, its just the crates after a boss but different icons and names, but worth the same compared to boss drops.

 

and now i g2g mountainbiking have a  nice weekend

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Holmindeboks.3490

[Obtena.7952]

^^ and there we see what the REAL motivation of this thread is.  Apparently Anet is greedy because someone doesn't like EoD. Makes sense 😂

Edited May 26, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Holmindeboks.3490]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

^^ and there we see what the REAL motivation of this thread is.  Apparently Anet is greedy because someone doesn't like EoD. Makes sense 😂

i think you have not read all i typed. 
Addicted ppl never understand. And i know many ppl cant imagine others situation often. Maybe not this time or problem but there are more things. Example legendary armor for open world. But ofc the addicted ppl are upset and dont want others have shinies where they worked for. Often ppl are just selfish. But they have struggles irl. Thats why they spend all time in a game where they are the master. Its their safe space. 

but i am happy to see that not everyone here disagree with me. 

the best thing i got from cantha is the racoon mini. I wanted the other but then i had to play guildwars 1. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Holmindeboks.3490

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Holmindeboks.3490 said:

i think you have not read all i typed. 
Addicted ppl never understand. And i know many ppl cant imagine others situation often. Maybe not this time or problem but there are more things. Example legendary armor for open world. But ofc the addicted ppl are upset and dont want others have shinies where they worked for. Often ppl are just selfish. But they have struggles irl. Thats why they spend all time in a game where they are the master. Its their safe space. 
 

the best thing i got from cantha is the racoon mini. I wanted the other but then i had to play guildwars 1. 

No I read it. Just don't pass off your unreasonable misunderstanding of Anet's business as 'greed' or some sort of addiction on my part. This whole thread is just a ruse for you to simply admit you don't like EoD. It's OK if you don't like it ... just don't invent things to justify it to people. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[voltaicbore.8012]

14 hours ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

Your requirement was "advantage over other people" and I just listed a few things that grant you an advantage over other people by opening your wallet.....now you're saying that this is actually irrelevant, so why even respond with "advantage over other people"?

The real issue is that you're attempting to hold any "non-p2w" game to mean that it shares essentially no monetization features with a "p2w" title. This ignores the fact that different games... run differently.

I agree it's factually true to say, as you do, that spending real money opens up a path of greater convenience in GW2. Despite that, I believe it's still unfair to consider GW2 a "p2w" game for other reasons.

For me (and I assume many others satisfied with GW2), a bona fide p2w game is one where not spending real money leaves you at an obvious and constant disadvantage. I think it's objectively true to say that GW2's cash shop does not follow that model. The amount of time and effort it takes to attain that full exotic/80 boost level of character power is fairly minimal, and not boosting straight up to that (not even BiS tier) level doesn't ruin anyone's GW2 experience.

On the contrary, for most new players, it seems boosting up to 80 is what ruins their GW2 experience.

It's a slightly awkward analogy, but let's say I published an artbook where I intend 90% of the book's value to come from looking at the pictures, and the remaining 10% to come from reading the captions or notes attached to the pictures. If I sell an addon that auto-reads the captions out loud when a reader turns the page, sure, the people who bought it might have a richer or smoother experience of the book than those who didn't pay up. But if so much of the book is supposed to be about enjoying pictures, does not having that weird auto-read addon meaningfully detract from the experience of the book? I'd argue no. Things would be different if I invented and sold an "addon" that changed all the images from the default greyscale into full color.

It all comes down to where you think the balance of a game's value comes from. If reaching level cap and getting full exotics is what you think the gameplay is really all about, then yeah, GW2 is a horrible p2w mess. If you think the bulk of the game's value comes from the cool skins exclusive to the shop, then it's even worse. But if you find the game's value comes from other things, then shop is really not a problem.

Because you seem like the kind of person to insist on it, I'll give you my categorization of GW2's model: for me it's a b2p game with very mild p2w (in the form of reasonable pay-for-convenience shortcuts) aspects.

Edited May 26, 2023 by voltaicbore.8012

[Blude.6812]

I look at it differently. They keep dropping stuff that one can't use or sell to a vendor. E.G. I don't need a repair canister to be rewarded ( They aren't needed and I have a perm, also no longer needed are should be removed), Recipes that are already known and the drop for them no longer required, experience boosts, magic boosts ( all my toons are level 80 and I have enough to use for numerous new toons that I can make). There are too many examples where the drops are redundant, useless, already acquired and can't be sold to a vendor and on and on. There should be a check (if/than statement?) that stops these useless drops or make it so everything can be sold to a vendor for pocket change or broken down.  So ya I agree with the premise, but maybe not greedy only a refusal by Anet to refuse to make changes that would stop useless drops.

[Gravitron.7982]

10 hours ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

  No, it didn't. That's like saying there's a standard definition for 'hipster'... Everyone just generalizes. Also, "had" is past tense. Words evolve over time, you know....

You've clearly not played other P2W games. Of course there's a choice in P2W, you can choose to progress at a snail's pace or save hundreds of hours of grind with a few dollars.

Thank you!

[Gravitron.7982]

29 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

The real issue is that you're attempting to hold any "non-p2w" game to mean that it shares essentially no monetization features with a "p2w" title. This ignores the fact that different games... run differently.

I agree it's factually true to say, as you do, that spending real money opens up a path of greater convenience in GW2. Despite that, I believe it's still unfair to consider GW2 a "p2w" game for other reasons.

For me (and I assume many others satisfied with GW2), a bona fide p2w game is one where not spending real money leaves you at an obvious and constant disadvantage. I think it's objectively true to say that GW2's cash shop does not follow that model. The amount of time and effort it takes to attain that full exotic/80 boost level of character power is fairly minimal, and not boosting straight up to that (not even BiS tier) level doesn't ruin anyone's GW2 experience.

On the contrary, for most new players, it seems boosting up to 80 is what ruins their GW2 experience.

It's a slightly awkward analogy, but let's say I published an artbook where I intend 90% of the book's value to come from looking at the pictures, and the remaining 10% to come from reading the captions or notes attached to the pictures. If I sell an addon that auto-reads the captions out loud when a reader turns the page, sure, the people who bought it might have a richer or smoother experience of the book than those who didn't pay up. But if so much of the book is supposed to be about enjoying pictures, does not having that weird auto-read addon meaningfully detract from the experience of the book? I'd argue no. Things would be different if I invented and sold an "addon" that changed all the images from the default greyscale into full color.

It all comes down to where you think the balance of a game's value comes from. If reaching level cap and getting full exotics is what you think the gameplay is really all about, then yeah, GW2 is a horrible p2w mess. If you think the bulk of the game's value comes from the cool skins exclusive to the shop, then it's even worse. But if you find the game's value comes from other things, then shop is really not a problem.

Because you seem like the kind of person to insist on it, I'll give you my categorization of GW2's model: for me it's a b2p game with very mild p2w (in the form of reasonable pay-for-convenience shortcuts) aspects.

F2P players don't have access to eSpecs. eSpecs far outclass every single core spec in terms of power level. There are some core specs that are viable for certain things (core necro being viable for some PVP modes for example). But being "viable" is not the same thing as being on par, or being stronger. The core spec is still weaker in this case, it is just viable enough to be useable. 

So paying players running around with super power compared to F2P players seems pretty pay to win to me. The point here, is that a player's power level is directly stuck behind a paywall. F2P players can NEVER be as powerful as paid players. EVER. They can develop a similar skill level, but their character's power level will never be the same until they can unlock an eSpec wearing full ascended gear. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Gravitron.7982

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hi Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil. I've removed some posts.

Regards.

[Freya.9075]

16 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

So paying players running around with super power compared to F2P players seems pretty pay to win to me. The point here, is that a player's power level is directly stuck behind a paywall. F2P players can NEVER be as powerful as paid players. EVER. They can develop a similar skill level, but their character's power level will never be the same until they can unlock an eSpec wearing full ascended gear. 

hmm. So why is it that when I try to PvP, core necro or any other core profession kills me in seconds when I play my "powerful" legendary trinket/weapon reaper with full asceneded armor with power infusions? Or any other elite specs for that matter. They use me as a ragdoll in there despite all my "amazing paid power" (although I did not spend gems to get these but it makes a point) Seems like this statement isn't waterproof. I wonder why 🤔Because I suck in Pvp? Indeed. No matter how much money I spend to gain power I will always die fast since it is your skill that matters and not your gear. And I know core players who whoop experienced players who play elite specs as well. 

Oh and btw. In PvP, gear does not matter. You can enter as a level 1 with grey gear and weapon and have the same stats as everyone else in there. The p2w just does not exist. No matter how hard you try to make it happen.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Freya.9075

[Bladestrom.6425]

4 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

Yes, those are also P2W games in addition to other P2W games, like GW2.

May as well repeat myself here.  Pay to win (when referred to as a negative) is well understood, it refers to a game which is designed cynically, where there is a pressure to buy items to have a strong advantage over those that do not buy.   This is obviously not GW2 which is pay for convenience or skin and also has a hard ceiling for power that has been in place for almost 10 years.

Edited May 26, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Jedrik.3109]

Ahh the forums are so unhinged. I love this place ❤️ 

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

59 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

F2P players don't have access to eSpecs. eSpecs far outclass every single core spec in terms of power level. There are some core specs that are viable for certain things (core necro being viable for some PVP modes for example). But being "viable" is not the same thing as being on par, or being stronger. The core spec is still weaker in this case, it is just viable enough to be useable. 

So paying players running around with super power compared to F2P players seems pretty pay to win to me. The point here, is that a player's power level is directly stuck behind a paywall. F2P players can NEVER be as powerful as paid players. EVER. They can develop a similar skill level, but their character's power level will never be the same until they can unlock an eSpec wearing full ascended gear. 

The core game went F2P some years ago. Originally it wasn't. They did this so people could try out the game for free. It's not supposed to be the game with all features and options. It's more of an incentive. Some people are more inclined to make a purchase once they've had a chance to try out the merchandise. Like taking a car for a test drive, trying on a pair of jeans or listening an to album in a music store. Once you pay for the game (which now happens to be an expansion, whereas before you'd buy the core game) you get full access to everything. Because, as stated before, ANet is not a charity organization. And giving people the option to try out your game for free is not P2W. It might sound like it the way you describe it, but that is a misrepresentation of the facts.

P2W means paying money to give you an advantage over players you can't get by not paying money. Buying a max level boost in GW2 is not pay to win because you can get to max level without paying as well, and it doesn't even take that long. Every single item in the gemstore does not give you any advantage over people who don't buy from the gemstore. Aesthetics aren't P2W. QoL items aren't P2W. The only way to argue GW2 is P2W is by stretching the defintion of the term to such a degree that the argument for P2W is easily dismantled. Or to misrepresent the facts, like you did.

[Gravitron.7982]

19 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

May as well repeat myself here.  Pay to win (when referred to as a negative) is well understood, it refers to a game which is designed cynically, where there is a pressure to buy items to have a strong advantage over those that do not buy.   This is obviously not GW2 which is pay for convenience or skin and also has a hard ceiling for power that has been in place for almost 10 years.

May as well repeat myself here. 

Core specs are not as powerful as especs. F2P players do not have access to the level of power that paid players have because they do not have access to especs.