Making A and D strafe by default was a good first step, but more needs to be done

[Einsof.1457]

Strafing serves very little purpose unless a mouse button is being held down and the character turned with mouse. However, many players are still clicking skills and then complaining that the game is too difficult. The wep skills + utilities + class F skills should not be clickable. I know some will freak out at this proposal, but in guild wars 2, if you are looking at your skill bar and trying to aim cursor at a skill, that means that you are not watching your enemy, and that means you are probably going to have a hard time.

The fact that skills are clickable are actually a disservice to the playerbase, as it sets people up to have bad habits and frustration when they begin to enter content that requires adequate focus on the enemy and the environment. Those who try to learn how to play optimally after having been a clicker for hundreds of hours are likely going to get very frustrated, when if they were not a clicker from the beginning, they would be able to ease into more difficult content without having to drastically relearn how to play. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Einsof.1457

[Endaris.1452]

Ehh, as someone who had to play without a MMO mouse for a while I have to say that I dislike this. A lot.

GW2 has SO many buttons to bind, at some point you're forced to either use a lot of modifiers or to skillclick.

Depending on your setup (I was playing on a laptop with a small Ctrl/Shift), skillclicking might be the more convenient solution. Mind you, I don't think skillclicking weaponskills is ever a good idea but for various utilities that you don't have to aim (e.g. traps, preparations, selfbuffs), skillclicking seems completely ok if you're short on bindable keys.

Last but not least, when I'm just chilling out in Armistice Bastion and doing vendor, TP and crafting stuff on the side I definitely WANT to be able to skillclick all of my SAK abilities. It is legitimate convenience to be able to skillclick skills in non-combat scenarios.

I feel like having your skills numbered from 1 to 0 is potentially a much greater problem because it is not ergonomic and invites skillclicking much more than sensible keybinds - which are impossible to get right thanks to keyboard locales.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Endaris.1452

[voltaicbore.8012]

5 minutes ago, Endaris.1452 said:

I feel like having your skills numbered from 1 to 0 is potentially a much greater problem because it is not ergonomic and invites skillclicking much more than sensible keybinds - which are impossible to get right thanks to keyboard locales.

I think I like this idea better than getting rid of skill clicking entirely. I think disabling skill clicks would also fully disable a lot of lower-end (in terms of combat ability) players, and I think they should be here/play the way they want.

However, if the default keybinds were more ergonomically centered around the WASD movement keys, that might be a good first step to easing some people into keybinds instead of clicking. 1-5 is still workable, but 6-0 is certainly requires greater reach than QERZXC. 

[Fueki.4753]

I think that changing those inputs was a bad change and I'm glad we are allowed to manually undo it.

Making abilities not clickable is a good way to lose players. I doubt that's what Arenanet wants. The looking down on people who enjoy playing clicking is a "disservice" to those people on a personal level.

Not everyone enjoys optimizing and not everyone enjoys hitting keys for their abilities. Even if you fail to realized it, it's a fact that some people are better at clicking their abilities. This is not a matter of just being used to it.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Einsof.1457]

4 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I think that changing those inputs was a bad change and I'm glad we are allowed to manually undo it.

Making abilities not clickable is a good way to lose players. I doubt that's what Arenanet wants.

Anet should want more players to play optimally instead of shooting themselves in the foot. 

[Fueki.4753]

Just now, Einsof.1457 said:

Anet should want more players to play optimally instead of shooting themselves in the foot. 

No, they shouldn't.

Arenanet should focus on making the game more fun for as many as possible. Nudging people into optimizing is not the correct way to do so.

[AliamRationem.5172]

13 minutes ago, Endaris.1452 said:

Ehh, as someone who had to play without a MMO mouse for a while I have to say that I dislike this. A lot.

GW2 has SO many buttons to bind, at some point you're forced to either use a lot of modifiers or to skillclick.

Depending on your setup (I was playing on a laptop with a small Ctrl/Shift), skillclicking might be the more convenient solution. Mind you, I don't think skillclicking weaponskills is ever a good idea but for various utilities that you don't have to aim (e.g. traps, preparations, selfbuffs), skillclicking seems completely ok if you're short on bindable keys.

Last but not least, when I'm just chilling out in Armistice Bastion and doing vendor, TP and crafting stuff on the side I definitely WANT to be able to skillclick all of my SAK abilities. It is legitimate convenience to be able to skillclick skills in non-combat scenarios.

I feel like having your skills numbered from 1 to 0 is potentially a much greater problem because it is not ergonomic and invites skillclicking much more than sensible keybinds - which are impossible to get right thanks to keyboard locales.

While you're correct regarding the 1 to 0 default setup, the problem is that there is no easily agreed upon "optimal" setup. 

As far as what is least restrictive, a gaming mouse with most of your skills bound to mouse buttons is optimal.  But not everyone has a gaming mouse and if you struggle to get a feel for that type of setup (I personally don't do well with having a ton of thumb buttons!), then it won't be optimal for you.

If you instead rely more on keybinds, then it's anyone's guess what is optimal.  Do you use WASD?  Even that is not universal as many prefer ESDF so they can bind two extra keys on the lefthand side.

The point is that any default setup for keybinds is going to be inadequate.  1-0 could even be said to have an advantage in that nobody who thinks about any of these things would ever leave their keybinds in this state!  By defaulting to about the worst possible setup you could use, anyone using keybinds would quickly change them to something they find usable.

[Einsof.1457]

2 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

No, they shouldn't.

Arenanet should focus on making the game more fun for as many as possible. Nudging people into optimizing is not the correct way to do so.

Guess we can disagree on that then. 

[Endaris.1452]

Just now, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Do you use WASD?  Even that is not universal as many prefer ESDF so they can bind two extra keys on the lefthand side.

In a fit of insanity I switched to using SEDW with my ring and middle finger for movement to have my pinky and index always free. Oh the optimization!

But it's still too many keybinds.

[Justforvisit.3709]

1 hour ago, Endaris.1452 said:

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Do you use WASD?  Even that is not universal as many prefer ESDF so they can bind two extra keys on the lefthand side.

In a fit of insanity I switched to using SEDW with my ring and middle finger for movement to have my pinky and index always free. Oh the optimization!

But it's still too many keybinds.

And there are some people who even in this day and age still feel more comfortable with the ancient Arrow Keys setup, that setup is so ancient, it is even mentioned in the Elder Scrolls......

Also, taking options AWAY from people is NEVER a solution (though many modern companies seem to think this way....)

And furthermore:

Using 1 - 5 with my ring-, middle- and indexfinger (well, 1 not really, since that's set to autoattack in most cases anyways, and where it isn't that problem is solved with CTRL + RMB) and skills 6 - 0 I usually just click with the mouse.

Over 18.000 hours of content here, including HoT, PoF and EoD at their release dates and I never struggled with anything contentwise in that regard.
As many have said, it's totally up to personal preference, some may be better using this, some that and some, as I do, a hybrid solution.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Endaris.1452 said:

In a fit of insanity I switched to using SEDW with my ring and middle finger for movement to have my pinky and index always free. Oh the optimization!

But it's still too many keybinds.

GW2 does have the advantage of a simplified UI that only displays 10 skills at a time (plus the class bar, which varies).  There are plenty of keys within easy reach.

[AliamRationem.5172]

5 minutes ago, Justforvisit.3709 said:

And there are some people who even in this day and age still feel more comfortable with the ancient Arrow Keys setup, that setup is so ancient, it is even mentioned in the Elder Scrolls......

Also, taking options AWAY from people is NEVER a solution (though many modern companies seem to think this way....)

And furthermore:

Using 1 - 5 with my ring-, middle- and indexfinger (well, 1 not really, since that's set to autoattack in most cases anyways, and where it isn't that problem is solved with CTRL + RMB) and skills 6 - 0 I usually just click with the mouse.

Over 18.000 hours of content here, including HoT, PoF and EoD at their release dates and I never struggled with anything contentwise in that regard.
As many have said, it's totally up to personal preference, some may be better using this, some that and some, as I do, a hybrid solution.

To be clear, I wasn't agreeing with the OP's solution.  As I said, I don't think anyone who thinks this is an issue is using 6-0 anyway.  It follows that those who don't aren't likely to benefit from whatever change we might make to the default setup.  If they're reaching to use 6-0 they're a lost cause.  The rest are probably clicking, which presents its own issues, but is still perfectly playable, albeit not ideal (but then neither are keybinds!).

[Endaris.1452]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

GW2 does have the advantage of a simplified UI that only displays 10 skills at a time (plus the class bar, which varies).  There are plenty of keys within easy reach.

You cannot play without weaponswap nor can you play without dodge. Playing without SAK is kind of troll too. Interact is way too crucial to keep out of reach (trust me, I had it like way off on N for a while, it's horrible). My most played classes are engineer and mesmer (read: chrono), so yes, 5 keys for profession mechanics. Given the numerous shockwave mechanics and ledges in the game, playing without an accessible jump is a very bad idea too, so that is 20 keys as the MINIMUM beside movement keys to play with.

And there are still more key binds which I consider incredibly useful such as

- show ally names for finding items/NPCs
- look behind for DPS uptime and other content where your character facing direction matters
- about face for movement and dashing forward with backward dashes
- stow weapon if you're playing PvP or smallscale WvW
- next enemy for general targetting purposes

Now consider this combined with the fact that most people (unlike me) play with fairly constrained movement radius because whether they use WASD or ESDF, they effectively have half of their keys bound to their index finger because middle and ring will be constrained by the movement keys and pinky has a small movement radius due to being short.

It just doesn't work.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Endaris.1452

[Einsof.1457]

34 minutes ago, Endaris.1452 said:

You cannot play without weaponswap nor can you play without dodge. Playing without SAK is kind of troll too. Interact is way too crucial to keep out of reach (trust me, I had it like way off on N for a while, it's horrible). My most played classes are engineer and mesmer (read: chrono), so yes, 5 keys for profession mechanics. Given the numerous shockwave mechanics and ledges in the game, playing without an accessible jump is a very bad idea too, so that is 20 keys as the MINIMUM beside movement keys to play with.

And there are still more key binds which I consider incredibly useful such as

- show ally names for finding items/NPCs
- look behind for DPS uptime and other content where your character facing direction matters
- about face for movement and dashing forward with backward dashes
- stow weapon if you're playing PvP or smallscale WvW
- next enemy for general targetting purposes

Now consider this combined with the fact that most people (unlike me) play with fairly constrained movement radius because whether they use WASD or ESDF, they effectively have half of their keys bound to their index finger because middle and ring will be constrained by the movement keys and pinky has a small movement radius due to being short.

It just doesn't work.

Works great for me. Happy to answer any specific questions. I do not use a "gamer mouse" either. 

[Manasa Devi.7958]

41 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Works great for me. Happy to answer any specific questions. I do not use a "gamer mouse" either. 

Well, if it works for you, of course we should abolish skill clicking. ANet, get on it ASAP!

[Randulf.7614]

5 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I think that changing those inputs was a bad change and I'm glad we are allowed to manually undo it.

Making abilities not clickable is a good way to lose players. I doubt that's what Arenanet wants. The looking down on people who enjoy playing clicking is a "disservice" to those people on a personal level.

Not everyone enjoys optimizing and not everyone enjoys hitting keys for their abilities. Even if you fail to realized it, it's a fact that some people are better at clicking their abilities. This is not a matter of just being used to it.

 

5 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

No, they shouldn't.

Arenanet should focus on making the game more fun for as many as possible. Nudging people into optimizing is not the correct way to do so.

Fully agreed with both posts. No change required. I understand the op’s intention, but this is a casual, sandbox orientated mmo. Force changing a player’s controls should never be on the table for implementation either.

[Zephire.8049]

Completely disabling skills is a great way to lose players, players who help pay the bills to keep the servers running. Providing alternative layouts is fine and could absolutely help people find keybinds that work for them but do not disable an entire input method because you don't like that people have an option to play sub-optimally with no regard to why that is or if someone can even physically manage only keybinds.

The idea people need to be forced to play a certain way or do content "because if they try it they'll realize they like it" needs to die. People have different preferences and abilities and so what if they like something else? Unless you're doing raids or PvP with a slow clicker, it doesn't affect you yet you're getting in your own mind about how some people elsewhere in the world do something you think is Wrong™.

And that's not even touching on how computer peripherals (especially ones aimed at gaming) tend to be designed in a way so anyone with smaller hands or limited mobility can't reach everything.

Not everyone has an interest in min-maxing every aspect of how they interact with a game and care more about having fun in it, especially if they're doing casual content or keeping to themselves.

[Cuks.8241]

I'm pretty sure this is a bait thread.

For what is worth, they could add some presets for control and other settings. With some explanation. Not really keybinds, although 6-0 is just useless for combat skills. But a more efficient setting with quick cast ground targeting, no silly double tap to dodge and no useless on screen effects.

On the other hand not being able to click is an effective lesson for people to learn to key bind and it doesn't take long to train yourself to use full key binds (just stop clicking, make yourself not click anything ever again and your muscle memory will develop fast, its much lower effort so if you can click you can use buttons). But just making it default would enrage many players and maybe make the game unplayable for some players with disabilities. 

[Danikat.8537]

I don't think it's possible to have one control system which is ideal for everyone. For one thing there's right-handed and left-handed people who will likely need controls in different places. The important thing is the game lets you customise them yourself, and that includes choosing which of the available methods to use, not just where to place key bindings.

I use a mix of both, which is hard to describe but works for me in the moment. I have a key set for each skill and action, but sometimes in the moment it's easier to click the icon because my right hand (the one that's on the keyboard) is busy with something else. Especially when I'm playing untamed where the ranger and pet can carry out seperate actions at the same time, I could be using the keyboard to fire off my own skills and then I want my pet to do something and if I don't need to move the camera or ground target it's easier to click the icon than push the key. Other times it's the opposite, I need my mouse to move, so I'll push the keyboard key to activate a pet skill.

It's the same with movement. I use all the options at different times, sometimes I use the arrow keys, sometimes I hold down both mouse buttons, sometimes I use auto-run and the right button, sometimes I use action camera and auto-run. It's hard to describe and trying to explain when and why I use each gets very complicated, but when I'm playing I don't even think about it, I just do whatever makes sense in the moment.

[Gibson.4036]

For that matter, if one was going to optimize, the standard movement keys should be moved farther into the center of the keyboard. This gives more keys within two keys away from your resting hand position on the movement keys.

But WASD is one of those weird traditions that hangs on, like 1-0 skill bars.

[I'm not agreeing that anything should actually be changed, I just find it weird that when people talk optimization they rarely bring this up.]

[Danikat.8537]

9 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

For that matter, if one was going to optimize, the standard movement keys should be moved farther into the center of the keyboard. This gives more keys within two keys away from your resting hand position on the movement keys.

But WASD is one of those weird traditions that hangs on, like 1-0 skill bars.

[I'm not agreeing that anything should actually be changed, I just find it weird that when people talk optimization they rarely bring this up.]

I've never understood how WASD and a 1-0 skill bar is supposed to work. Even trying to imagine what it's like for people who are right-handed and don't have small hands I can't see how you're supposed to use the movement and skill keys together. It sort-of works in slower or turn-based games where you only need to do one thing at a time (although even then I tend to use the mouse to move) but I don't know how anyone plays action games like GW2 like that.

(I use the number pad for skills and actions like weapon swap, changing target etc. and the arrow keys to move, but I don't think that would work for people who are right-handed.)

[Myror.7521]

Eh you Guys noticed you could simply use W,A,S,D to move the char (or Just use mouse to move with Kamera) and set skills and stuff around those WASD right? That Just litterly the way how some pvpers playing the Game rn. You do not need an MMO Mouse in any terms its Just more a QoL Thing ^^

[Einsof.1457]

19 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

Eh you Guys noticed you could simply use W,A,S,D to move the char (or Just use mouse to move with Kamera) and set skills and stuff around those WASD right? That Just litterly the way how some pvpers playing the Game rn. You do not need an MMO Mouse in any terms its Just more a QoL Thing ^^

Bingo. 

[Astralporing.1957]

On 5/29/2023 at 4:12 PM, Einsof.1457 said:

Anet should want more players to play optimally instead of shooting themselves in the foot. 

No. Anet would want more players to play. Well, that, and pay - not necessarily optimally.

[Gravitron.7982]

On 5/29/2023 at 6:56 AM, Endaris.1452 said:

Ehh, as someone who had to play without a MMO mouse for a while I have to say that I dislike this. A lot.

GW2 has SO many buttons to bind, at some point you're forced to either use a lot of modifiers or to skillclick.

Depending on your setup (I was playing on a laptop with a small Ctrl/Shift), skillclicking might be the more convenient solution. Mind you, I don't think skillclicking weaponskills is ever a good idea but for various utilities that you don't have to aim (e.g. traps, preparations, selfbuffs), skillclicking seems completely ok if you're short on bindable keys.

Last but not least, when I'm just chilling out in Armistice Bastion and doing vendor, TP and crafting stuff on the side I definitely WANT to be able to skillclick all of my SAK abilities. It is legitimate convenience to be able to skillclick skills in non-combat scenarios.

I feel like having your skills numbered from 1 to 0 is potentially a much greater problem because it is not ergonomic and invites skillclicking much more than sensible keybinds - which are impossible to get right thanks to keyboard locales.

Idk...I mean, it definitely has more buttons to bind than ESO, that's for sure, but not as many as WoW, and definitely not as many as EQ2 or other tab-target MMORPGs.