June 9th Thief Balance Patch Preview Discussion (The original thread)

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

 

Thief

In addition to moving alacrity off of wells, we wanted to improve specter's ability to play a support role in larger group situations. Ally-targeted scepter skills will now grant their effects in an area around the target, and Shadestep has been reworked to allow Shadow Shroud skills to affect multiple allies around the tethered target. We're also introducing a quickness build for deadeye. Fire for Effect will cause every stolen skill to become Steal Time, which now grants quickness in an area. We've also bumped up daredevil's staff damage while reducing the damage of the more powerful stolen skills to make the build more consistent.

 

Core

• Improvisation: This trait now reduces the cooldowns of all utility skills by a certain percentage when you steal, instead of recharging a random skill.
• Endless Stamina: This trait has been reworked and renamed Fluid Strikes. It now grants the thief a damage bonus for a period of time after using a movement skill or completing a shadowstep.
• Pain Response: This trait has been reworked. It now removes a damaging condition from the thief when completing a dodge roll.
• Guarded Initiation: This trait has been reworked. It now grants the thief resistance when using a movement skill, with a 5-second internal cooldown.
• Swindler's Equilibrium: This trait now recharges Steal by 1 second per trigger, with a 1-second cooldown.
• Assassin's Reward: Increased base healing per initiative spent from 102 to 151.
• Upper Hand: Reduced internal cooldown from 5 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP and WvW.

Daredevil

• Bound: Increased power coefficient from 1.75 to 3.5 in PvE only.
• Staff Strike: Increased power coefficient from 0.75 to 1.0 in PvE only.
• Staff Bash: Increased power coefficient from 0.8 to 1.2 in PvE only.
• Brawler's Tenacity: This skill no longer reduces the cooldown of physical skills.
• Channeled Vigor: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 24 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Bandit's Defense: Reduced cooldown from 20 seconds to 16 seconds in PvE and from 30 seconds to 24 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Fist Flurry: Reduced cooldown from 20 seconds to 16 seconds.
• Impairing Daggers: Reduced cooldown from 18 seconds to 15 seconds.
• Impact Strike: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds.
• Detonate Plasma: This skill now deals damage to nearby enemies and no longer grants quickness.
• Throw Magnetic Bomb: Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 0.7.
• Throw Unstable Reagent: Increased power coefficient from 1.5 to 2.0.
• Throw Cursed Artifact: Reduced power coefficient from 0.5 to 0.4. Reduced bleeding, torment, and confusion stacks from 5 to 3.
• Time in a Bottle: Reduced duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds.

Deadeye

• Stolen Skills: Stolen skills now grant their beneficial effects in a radius around the caster. Reduced casting time by approximately 25%.
• Steal Time: Increased quickness duration from 3 seconds to 5 seconds in PvE only.
• Steal Resistance: Increased resistance duration from 3 seconds to 5 seconds in PvE only.
• Malicious Intent: Increased malice gain from 1 to 2 in PvE only.
• Fire for Effect: This trait no longer requires a target to grant boons to allies. Additionally, equipping this trait guarantees that the stolen skill will be Steal Time, regardless of the target's profession.
• Shadow Flare: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 20 seconds in PvE only. This skill now only damages once when used instead of pulsing.
• Shadow Swap: This skill now causes an additional strike to occur at your original location when used.
• One in the Chamber: This trait now also increases the damage of stolen skills, in addition to its previous effects.
• Binding Shadow: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 20 seconds in PvE and from 30 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP and WvW. This skill now immobilizes marked targets instead of knocking them down.

Specter

• Ally-targeted scepter skills now also grant a lesser effect to additional allies in a radius around the target.
• Second Opinion: This trait now grants condition damage instead of healing power when equipped and while wielding a scepter.
• Shallow Grave: This trait has been reworked. It now causes Siphon to transfer conditions to a targeted enemy or remove conditions from the specter and their targeted ally.
• Traversing Dusk: This trait no longer grants alacrity to allies when using a well skill.
• Shadestep: This trait has been reworked. It now spreads the beneficial effects of your shadow shroud skills to allies around your tethered target, and it additionally grants boons to yourself and those allies when you use a shadow shroud skill

This thread is going to be opened early in preparation and for insight for arenanet to make last minute tunings or address concerns about what ifs as well as potential decisions rhardimg the patch this Tuesday 

Keep on topic, remain civil and insightful.

This will be the main thread to post feedback on patch day, so please make sure to not duplicate!

 

~Lithril

 

🥷 🔪 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[Acheron.1580]

https://youtu.be/oO_jtlib_x4

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Those of us confused, the thread is just a preparation that's all. Chill, you'll know when it's useful

Edited June 5, 2023 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[LyraOrpheo.8450]

I'm just on the edge of my seat with some hopium. I have no idea what they're gonna do or how so I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised. I've at least gone into this thread on what I think they won't do in regards to Quickness Deadeye, and the reasons why. A lot of people who just use Pistol/Pistol Deadeye to kill stuff in Queensdale think they can just slap Quickness on FFE, but its a whole conversation that delves into DE's current flaws on why it would make it unviable.

Edited June 8, 2023 by LyraOrpheo.8450

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Added preview notes. Commence discussion...u see now what I wanted to do with this thread?

[LyraOrpheo.8450]

Well, I voiced my opinion against Fire for Effect, not because it itself is a bad trait, but because Deadeye right now has problems tied to it: we have a hard blocker with props like the Octovine where mark gives you the No Valid Path to Target your whole profession is basically invalidated, plus a soft blocker with Stealth issues, where you will still be able to use your stolen skills to give quickness, but being perma revealed by the likes of Slothazor and everywhere else fixate is a thing, or occasional reveals by Mai Trin or some places where you randomly get revealed, or your own allies blasting some fields so your value drops dramatically since your DPS relies on stealth attacks. I do appreciate Shadow Flare's pulse changing to a one time thing.

So that's a lot of content where this patch won't shine or even be used at all, for Deadeye.

I think if all of that is fixed then Quickness Deadeye in this form is worth being excited about.

As for Specter, I'm on board with everything, though still hoping initiative gets normalized as it stands Specter is a Scepter only profession, Second Opinion double down on this. Still hope one day for dagger/dagger or pistol/x or shortbow being viable options. And renaming Wells to Spectral! lol

edit: actually almost everything, your shroud will probably be paper thin with Shadestep so Alac in places like Boneskinner will just not work. You need Strength of Shadows.

Edited June 9, 2023 by LyraOrpheo.8450

[Meridian.9103]

Pretty underwhelmed about the specter changes from a WvW perspective.

1. Removing Alac from traversing dusk is probably the final nail in the coffin for power specter

2. Giving Specter more AoE support on Scepter and Shroud is generally good, but it will still severely lack condi cleanse potential to be able to compete for a support role squads.

[Doggie.3184]

3 minutes ago, Meridian.9103 said:

Pretty underwhelmed about the specter changes from a WvW perspective.

1. Removing Alac from traversing dusk is probably the final nail in the coffin for power specter

2. Giving Specter more AoE support on Scepter and Shroud is generally good, but it will still severely lack condi cleanse potential to be able to compete for a support role squads.

Hope it can actually support at all in WvW Zergs without Shroud being 0'd instantly by AoE before it can provide any boons.

Still wish Scepter/Pistol 3 didn't Shadowstep us. No good AoEs to spam. Shortbow still useless on Specter as it does little to no Condi damage and no Torment.

No out of combat Alacrity anymore, which is sad, unless they let us Self-Siphon our own shadow for Shroud points which I really really wish to have.

Dual Pistols are weak and Deadly Aim needs to fix that, not weaken it more.

Deadeye Mark doesn't work on all enemies. Can't use on self.

Lotta left out range, duration and etc detail to really know how much I really like the changes till I try them but lotta good looking stuff still that I've wanted.

 

[senftube.6081]

Why the kitten are they killing SD Core? 

The Big Spectre Update is a tiny wigilly weeeeeee update. Again a bit a joke of an update for the thief class to be honest. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by senftube.6081

[Infusion.7149]

edit: wrong patch thread

Edited June 10, 2023 by Infusion.7149
wrong thread

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

3 hours ago, senftube.6081 said:

Why the kitten are they killing SD Core? 

The Big Spectre Update is a tiny wigilly weeeeeee update. Again a bit a joke of an update for the thief class to be honest. 

Dude, SD core will be WAY better after the update. It could potentially be one of the best thief specs. Acrobatics looks insanely strong. Sw/p could potentially make a big come back as well. 

Calling it now, SD daredevil with acrobatics & impairing daggers will be OP.

Edited June 10, 2023 by WhoWantsAHug.3186

[FrancisN.9276]

41 minutes ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Dude, SD core will be WAY better after the update. It could potentially be one of the best thief specs. Acrobatics looks insanely strong. Sw/p could potentially make a big come back as well. 

Calling it now, SD daredevil with acrobatics & impairing daggers will be OP.

What makes it OP?

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

12 minutes ago, FrancisN.9276 said:

What makes it OP?

The acrobatics buffs + the CD reduction on impairing daggers. Impairing daggers is already a very good utility. 2 1/2 sec immob on a 15 second CD that applies poison and does 6k+ dmg is nuts

Edited June 10, 2023 by WhoWantsAHug.3186

[Scorcher.6428]

This is some feedback for Specter support
 

Starting with the June 28th patch in 2022.
Shadow Arts' healing capabilities were significantly nerfed in last years June 28th balance patch. Merciful ambush had the revival boost removed. Even though it heals when entering and exiting stealth, Shadow Arts also had stealth access removed in the very same patch. ie. Heal skill no longer grants invis. 
But also stealth was indirectly nerfed through the removal of Hidden Thief's deception skill cd reduction.
This nerfed blinding powder, hide in shadows and shadow refuge as stealth utility options in PvE. Not only that but this change nerfed any trait that would grant a benefit to stealthing allies (Panaku's Ambition and Cover of Shadows).

Many traits for Thief and other classes when having utility cooldown reduction traits removed/reworked, now have those cooldown reductions baked into the skill iteself. eg. Thief signets, Trick skills, etc. Why are Deception skills an exception?(that rhymed hehe).
Deception skill cooldown reduction was completely removed and received 0 compensation in PvE. Meaning shadow refuge and shadow step(with shadow saviour and traversing dusk) are not really an option with their long cooldowns. Do deception skills REALLY need such a long cd in PvE?
Even Druid's glyph of the stars is only around 40 48 seconds nowadays and is effectively far stronger with stability worked in, in comparison to Thief's shadow refuge.

Upcoming June 27th Patch
Now the trait Shadestep is having the siphon rez removed through a trait rework. This was an incredibly fun ability to have making you something like a lesser heal scourge and was a fantastic supporting option at the cost of some dps loss.
I wish there was an explanation for this or some reasoning behind it because it makes no sense. Not that what we get with the Shadestep rework is bad, but did the siphon rez really need to be deleted?

I'm excited for the alacrity and scepter targeting changes, though comedically according to the patch notes Specter apparently no longer grants alac lol, but I'm really not sure what why Specter can't have nice trait synergy with Shadow Arts or even have more healing options. All we get is consume shadows.
Honestly feels like since the EoD beta, healing options keep being taken away from Specter/Thief and it's a real shame.

If someone from the balance team reads this, please take it into consideration.

Outside of Specter, I'm super pumped to try Quickness Deadeye!

Edited June 10, 2023 by Scorcher.6428
grammar

[RyuDragnier.9476]

They removed Alac and replaced it with...what? Because those notes don't say where Alac is coming from now, if anywhere. I assume Shroud, but if so then we need Shroud to not be so easily destroyed.

[LyraOrpheo.8450]

4 minutes ago, RyuDragnier.9476 said:

They removed Alac and replaced it with...what? Because those notes don't say where Alac is coming from now, if anywhere. I assume Shroud, but if so then we need Shroud to not be so easily destroyed.

Yeah, the patch preview just says Shroud will give boons but doesn't says what, its only on stream where you find out Alac was moved there. We're effectively back to November when Shroud was heavily nerfed with seemingly no measurement other than "well necro has the same coefficient here" , we need the damage decrease from Strength of Shadows to be universal 

[Tarusto.2941]

Made some further suggestions to the Balance Review post how to push support spectre little more

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/131631-june-27-balance-update-preview/?do=findComment&comment=1909796

What do you think?

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

11 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Hope it can actually support at all in WvW Zergs without Shroud being 0'd instantly by AoE before it can provide any boons.

Still wish Scepter/Pistol 3 didn't Shadowstep us. No good AoEs to spam. Shortbow still useless on Specter as it does little to no Condi damage and no Torment.

No out of combat Alacrity anymore, which is sad, unless they let us Self-Siphon our own shadow for Shroud points which I really really wish to have.

Dual Pistols are weak and Deadly Aim needs to fix that, not weaken it more.

Deadeye Mark doesn't work on all enemies. Can't use on self.

Lotta left out range, duration and etc detail to really know how much I really like the changes till I try them but lotta good looking stuff still that I've wanted.

 

Can use on your own mini

[Infinity.2876]

Is anyone else disappointed that they are finally amalgamating specter into every other support out there?

I really wanted specter to be the first single target support, but with how they implemented it, it was too weak and need buffs but instead they make it a multi-target support.

[Bazsi.2734]

1 hour ago, Infinity.2876 said:

Is anyone else disappointed that they are finally amalgamating specter into every other support out there?

I really wanted specter to be the first single target support, but with how they implemented it, it was too weak and need buffs but instead they make it a multi-target support.

You can't have single target supports in this game though.
- If they are as effective as the 5 target ones, nobody will ever take them for anything.
- If they are better, they will be mandatory on every small encounter(like 2v2/3v3) and nowhere else. You'd be making specter into this very nieche thing that you only play in offseason PvP and while 2man speedrunning dungeons/fractals for fun.

Using your tether as a beacon to distribute your support goodies is a better idea, but if that's the way we're going this patch needs some followups because this is not nearly enough. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Bazsi.2734

[FrancisN.9276]

2 hours ago, Infinity.2876 said:

Is anyone else disappointed that they are finally amalgamating specter into every other support out there?

I really wanted specter to be the first single target support, but with how they implemented it, it was too weak and need buffs but instead they make it a multi-target support.

I'm actually glad they listened and let go of that single-target mindset for specter.

[RyuDragnier.9476]

The only way single-target would have worked is if this game was all small parties like GW1 and not huge squads as it currently is. All they can do is make it AoE because unfortunately they pigeon-holed themselves into AoE everything long ago.

[Vidit.7108]

The notes on the stream are the most recent version of the balance patch notes, they said the ones on the forums are already a little out of date. For those who missed it shroud skills will provide alacrity (probably 2 seconds each) in PvE and protection for 2 seconds in PvP/WvW when selecting Shadestep

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Specter changes seem nice but I still want to see more core trait interactions with Siphon when used on allies. Fingers crossed that they are implemented but not included in the patch notes. 

[Antycypator.9874]

Bound buff is literally "buff something to let people think we care about Daredevil".

Who cares about Bound damage? It's only there for 15% damage increase, but since it lasts only 4s, it's still terrible thing and 2x more damage to just Bound won't make Daredevil better.

Wouldn't it be better to buff whole staff AA chain? Rework some traits to move this spec from 2015 year? Do you even remember why Vindicator's dodge was reworked? Because no one likes dodging off-cd.