What was the point of introducing the gods as part of the character creator system for humans, just to write them out because "lol we don't need no gods"?

[Hologram.2810]

I'm truly wondering. Did the writers and directors from 2010 to 2018 completely change?

[Ulysses.2058]

Devotion to the gods is a defining trait of Humans, just as science is to the Asura, reputation/legend to the Norn, or war/military to the Charr.

While the departure of the gods and their subsequent forsaking is one of the major challenges of humanity, religion is still core to their culture, history and lives. And so, character creation reflects that, independently of how the world is evolving at that point.

[Fueki.4753]

There are a handful of unique lines, depending on which god you chose at your character's creation.

These lines aren't much, but they are nice bits of flavour in the core game and PoF.

[Tazer.2157]

For the same reason Cantha feels like a West Coast city. Embrace modernity.  

[voltaicbore.8012]

5 hours ago, BloodyVampyra.3741 said:

I'm truly wondering. Did the writers and directors from 2010 to 2018 completely change?

There certainly has been a lot of turnover. It may very well be that by 2018 everyone who wrote/cared about the human gods was gone. If you're really curious you might be able to piece together the staff turnover picture via bios on the wiki.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

let's say you're a child and you really love your mom, you think she's the best mom in the world. then you grow up and realise she wasn't a very good mom, yet you still respect her for being your mother. that's basically where the humans are at now; they still respect the gods, but they also acknowledge they aren't very good gods who have pretty much just left humans to fend for themselves since a long time.

 

what do you expect them to do? the gods aren't returning, so they have no choice but to move on with an ever-evolving world, because life isn't just going to stop happening.

Edited June 19, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

To be fair, the gods were "written out" with Nightfall. The conclusion of Nightfall is literally the gods stepping away from the world. The whole PoF thing about the gods fleeing because Elder Dragons was a retcon despite established canon lore.
So it wasn't "introducing the gods as part of the character creation system just to write them out" but rather "adding the gods as part of the character creation system despite having written them out".
And the point of this is as @Ulysses.2058 mentioned - religion is one of the centerpieces of human culture and society, from Kryta to Elona to Cantha. Though the faith has waned due to their silence (aka departure), as mentioned in the introduction cinematic for humans, it has not perished. And this is a bit of an underlying element of the human side of the story - like how charr have the underlying plot of "loyalty to the legion vs loyalty to the warband" (most notable in situations like the gladium and shaman sire plots, as well as IBS), humans have "remaining faithful vs only relying on yourself" (which gets highlighted the most in S3 and PoF).

Also:

9 hours ago, BloodyVampyra.3741 said:

I'm truly wondering. Did the writers and directors from 2010 to 2018 completely change?

Yes.
The lead narrative designers in 2007-2012 were Jeff Grubb and Ree Soesbee. While they stayed with ArenaNet for a while after, they weren't in the spotlight, suggesting they were working on another game product.
In 2013, with LWS1, Angel McCoy and Scott McGough took over as lead narrative designers. This continued until Season 4 began, in 2018, where Tom Abernathy took over as Lead Narrative Designer until 2022 just before EoD's launch. Bobby Stein, a writer since GW1, is now lead narrative designer.
This will explain why the setup of GW2 doesn't really match anything else in the story - the Elder Dragons were established by writers who stopped working on GW2 after launch.

One of ArenaNet's biggest issues is that they are a "stepping stone company". Which means their employees shift a lot and you only have a handful of consistent developers in the roster, like Bobby Stein and Matthew Medina who (sans a brief period for Medina) have been around since the days of Prophecies but not the ones in charge overall. A lot of .

[Hologram.2810]

41 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

To be fair, the gods were "written out" with Nightfall. The conclusion of Nightfall is literally the gods stepping away from the world. The whole PoF thing about the gods fleeing because Elder Dragons was a retcon despite established canon lore.
So it wasn't "introducing the gods as part of the character creation system just to write them out" but rather "adding the gods as part of the character creation system despite having written them out".
And the point of this is as @Ulysses.2058 mentioned - religion is one of the centerpieces of human culture and society, from Kryta to Elona to Cantha. Though the faith has waned due to their silence (aka departure), as mentioned in the introduction cinematic for humans, it has not perished. And this is a bit of an underlying element of the human side of the story - like how charr have the underlying plot of "loyalty to the legion vs loyalty to the warband" (most notable in situations like the gladium and shaman sire plots, as well as IBS), humans have "remaining faithful vs only relying on yourself" (which gets highlighted the most in S3 and PoF).

Also:

Yes.
The lead narrative designers in 2007-2012 were Jeff Grubb and Ree Soesbee. While they stayed with ArenaNet for a while after, they weren't in the spotlight, suggesting they were working on another game product.
In 2013, with LWS1, Angel McCoy and Scott McGough took over as lead narrative designers. This continued until Season 4 began, in 2018, where Tom Abernathy took over as Lead Narrative Designer until 2022 just before EoD's launch. Bobby Stein, a writer since GW1, is now lead narrative designer.
This will explain why the setup of GW2 doesn't really match anything else in the story - the Elder Dragons were established by writers who stopped working on GW2 after launch.

One of ArenaNet's biggest issues is that they are a "stepping stone company". Which means their employees shift a lot and you only have a handful of consistent developers in the roster, like Bobby Stein and Matthew Medina who (sans a brief period for Medina) have been around since the days of Prophecies but not the ones in charge overall. A lot of .

I see, that puts things into perspective then.

[Kalavier.1097]

They stepped back long before Nightfall.

Nightfall wasn't them leaving, Nigtfall was perhaps the biggest case of humans asking for aid and the gods going "We can't interfere, you got this." Nightfall ends literally with Kormir ascending and the worship of the six still on-going. It never said that the gods left or had the gods speak of such.

People love to overstate the gods presence in GW1, but it wasn't that far off from how it is in GW2. Slightly more, yes, but not that much.

Path of Fire merely explained how things changed from the Gods merely not being involved daily in the lives of humanity, to the gods actually leaving the world while their Avatars and presence remained.

 

edit: Humans haven't gone "We don't need no gods." Infact, even with Balthazar going crazy (whether you like it or not) his followers continue to revere what he stood for at the height of his teachings, not what he became. You can tell some Kormir worshippers at one point that she is gone, and they reply "We'll continue to follow her teachings and honor her."

Edited June 20, 2023 by Kalavier.1097

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

They stepped back long before Nightfall.

Nightfall wasn't them leaving, Nigtfall was perhaps the biggest case of humans asking for aid and the gods going "We can't interfere, you got this." Nightfall ends literally with Kormir ascending and the worship of the six still on-going. It never said that the gods left or had the gods speak of such.

They stepped back before Nightfall, but they didn't leave. There are several stories, like Karei, in which the gods were not only involved in mortal affairs, but present on the world. They simply moved to live in the Mists, presumably their domains or the Hall of Heroes.

Nightfall isn't the gods going "we can't interfere", it was them going "we don't need to interfere" - a stark difference. It was basically them saying that mortals don't need the gods. And after becoming a god, Kormir states:

Kormir: "Yes. Yes, I will, but for the moment, you have your world back. The gods spoke the truth. It is your world. Use it wisely."

Which is what Lyssa's Muse says as well, before hinting that only a mortal could replace a dying god.

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

People love to overstate the gods presence in GW1, but it wasn't that far off from how it is in GW2. Slightly more, yes, but not that much.

Directly, the gods have no presence in GW1 besides Abaddon and Dhuum. But unlike GW2, the avatars have a very active presence at every single statue of a god, in Nightfall's main plot, in 3/8 of the elite missions, and in several stories both old but post-Exodus and modern (e.g., Olias stating he personally saw Grenth himself, Meerak receiving a vision from Dwayna, Kehanni receiving a vision from Lyssa, etc.).

This is indeed very far from how it is in GW2, where neither the gods nor their avatars are ever present in any recent vision or story directly or indirectly, with the sole exception of Cathedral of Silence story mission, and Path of Fire.

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

edit: Humans haven't gone "We don't need no gods." Infact, even with Balthazar going crazy (whether you like it or not) his followers continue to revere what he stood for at the height of his teachings, not what he became. You can tell some Kormir worshippers at one point that she is gone, and they reply "We'll continue to follow her teachings and honor her."

Several very much have. This is even a highlighted subplot of the strife between Marjory and Kasmeer, particularly around PoF, though it wasn't focused as heavily as Kasmeer coming to terms with the gods 100% having left and Balthazar going rogue.

It's an underlying element in Kryta that there is a lowering amount of faithful people, with some like Marjory having zero religious zeal at all. They're not athetists - they don't deny the Six's existence - but they don't worship the Six. This is also seen in Cantha, in books like Belief in Cantha which opens by saying that the faith in the Six, while still present, has diminished since the Zhaitan Disaster - particularly among those well off.

And your example is very much subject to selection bias. Those who were faithful in GW2's time before hearing that, yes, they left aren't going to suddenly change their views when the Six have been notably silent for about 250 years, with zero given visions or direct meetings either with the god or their avatars. But just because the most faithful individuals have unshaken faith in a confirmation of something long suspected, doesn't mean the faith hasn't diminished in the overall population.

[Ashantara.8731]

On 6/19/2023 at 2:02 PM, BloodyVampyra.3741 said:

I'm truly wondering. Did the writers and directors from 2010 to 2018 completely change?

It is clear that, though it does not fit into the original concept of Guild Wars, the new(er) writers are trying to cater to the younger generation. Hence the overuse of colloquial modern language and all the stupid, ugly modern tech. Completely unbefitting, but hey, "Let's be hip, yo!" 😣 "Gods and their otherworldly magic are sooooo outdated, dude. Only old school RPGs still have them." 🤦‍♀️
 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

They stepped back before Nightfall, but they didn't leave. There are several stories, like Karei, in which the gods were not only involved in mortal affairs, but present on the world. They simply moved to live in the Mists, presumably their domains or the Hall of Heroes.

Nightfall isn't the gods going "we can't interfere", it was them going "we don't need to interfere" - a stark difference. It was basically them saying that mortals don't need the gods. And after becoming a god, Kormir states:

Kormir: "Yes. Yes, I will, but for the moment, you have your world back. The gods spoke the truth. It is your world. Use it wisely."

Which is what Lyssa's Muse says as well, before hinting that only a mortal could replace a dying god.

You said them leaving was a retcon. It wasn't retconning anything as the gods were already distancing themselves from solving every plight of humanity and hadn't been active and all.

It went from "The gods are silent" to "Oh, the gods were silent because they left." There was no retcon.

 

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Directly, the gods have no presence in GW1 besides Abaddon and Dhuum. But unlike GW2, the avatars have a very active presence at every single statue of a god, in Nightfall's main plot, in 3/8 of the elite missions, and in several stories both old but post-Exodus and modern (e.g., Olias stating he personally saw Grenth himself, Meerak receiving a vision from Dwayna, Kehanni receiving a vision from Lyssa, etc.).

This is indeed very far from how it is in GW2, where neither the gods nor their avatars are ever present in any recent vision or story directly or indirectly, with the sole exception of Cathedral of Silence story mission, and Path of Fire.

The statues of the gods can be described as gameplay elements, as the avatars only appear in a handful of quests. Also yes, we can see in a ghost that talks of speaking to Grenth in queensdale.

The thing people constantly mix up is they treat it as if the gods were personally handling stuff and directly interverning. They were not, quite famously. Besides Dwayna's avatar appearing twice to claim a soul as I recall.

Yes, GW2 has them totally gone and it's a major point of "The gods are silent", but that doesn't mean they were super active as if the gods hadn't been distancing themselves already for hundreds to thousands of years.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Several very much have. This is even a highlighted subplot of the strife between Marjory and Kasmeer, particularly around PoF, though it wasn't focused as heavily as Kasmeer coming to terms with the gods 100% having left and Balthazar going rogue.

It's an underlying element in Kryta that there is a lowering amount of faithful people, with some like Marjory having zero religious zeal at all. They're not athetists - they don't deny the Six's existence - but they don't worship the Six. This is also seen in Cantha, in books like Belief in Cantha which opens by saying that the faith in the Six, while still present, has diminished since the Zhaitan Disaster - particularly among those well off.

And your example is very much subject to selection bias. Those who were faithful in GW2's time before hearing that, yes, they left aren't going to suddenly change their views when the Six have been notably silent for about 250 years, with zero given visions or direct meetings either with the god or their avatars. But just because the most faithful individuals have unshaken faith in a confirmation of something long suspected, doesn't mean the faith hasn't diminished in the overall population.

 

That was present in the base game yes. But there is a distinction between some humans being less faithful, and the way the OP is phrased which is "You select a god and then instantly they don't need gods."

I never said the faith is constant and strong, just that human in general still believes in them and honors their teachings. Some don't worship as much, but it's still a major part of their beliefs and culture, as you mentioned. Humans who go "Bleep the gods! we can do this ourselves" exist but aren't the main population.

 

edit: Much like the rest of it, the character creation part is where the character starts off. The humans are no more important then the Norn or the Charr.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Kalavier.1097

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

You said them leaving was a retcon. It wasn't retconning anything as the gods were already distancing themselves from solving every plight of humanity and hadn't been active and all.

It went from "The gods are silent" to "Oh, the gods were silent because they left." There was no retcon.

I think you misunderstood me then. The change was going from "the gods left because they felt it was time to move on after Abaddon's death" (not only indicated in Lyssa's Muse's dialogue and Kormir's, but also stated by Jeff Grubb a couple times for why they went silent despite the Elder Dragons waking) to "the gods left because scary dragons" (per PoF).

13 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The statues of the gods can be described as gameplay elements, as the avatars only appear in a handful of quests. Also yes, we can see in a ghost that talks of speaking to Grenth in queensdale.

The thing people constantly mix up is they treat it as if the gods were personally handling stuff and directly interverning. They were not, quite famously. Besides Dwayna's avatar appearing twice to claim a soul as I recall.

Yes, GW2 has them totally gone and it's a major point of "The gods are silent", but that doesn't mean they were super active as if the gods hadn't been distancing themselves already for hundreds to thousands of years.

What ghost in Queensdale do you refer to? The only ghosts I can think of off the top of my head are Ewan Thorn during Halloween and the Lady in White. Neither mention Grenth on their wiki pages.

As to whether directly meeting Olias or giving visions to Meerak and Kehanni counts as "personally handling stuff and directly intervening", I guess that's too subjective a line to really agree it seems.

13 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

That was present in the base game yes. But there is a distinction between some humans being less faithful, and the way the OP is phrased which is "You select a god and then instantly they don't need gods."

I never said the faith is constant and strong, just that human in general still believes in them and honors their teachings. Some don't worship as much, but it's still a major part of their beliefs and culture, as you mentioned. Humans who go "Bleep the gods! we can do this ourselves" exist but aren't the main population.

Except that's not what the OP phrased at all. There is no "then instantly". While the title doesn't clarify it, the OP is actively saying between 2012 and 2018. I.e., between core and PoF they go from selecting a god to "write them out". That's six years of story and events. Hardly "instantly".

As to "humans in general still believe in them" - I guess without solid statistics, this will be a matter of subjective opinion too. Because it isn't really presented as a supermajority thing among humans from what I see. Religion can be a major part of culture without a lot of active worship. It was even established by devs that it's a growing significant portion of the population that's becoming less devout.

And to clarify, "not worshiping" != "bleep the gods". I see it presented more as indifference than active or passive aggression.

[Kalavier.1097]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

What ghost in Queensdale do you refer to? The only ghosts I can think of off the top of my head are Ewan Thorn during Halloween and the Lady in White. Neither mention Grenth on their wiki pages.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cicely_Otterly

She only appears at night, by her gravestone. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cicely_Otterly

She only appears at night, by her gravestone. 

I would disagree that she's saying she met Grenth.

"Grenth answered my prayers" is not an uncommon way of phrasing for a religious person talking about a miracle happening. It could be read as many possible things tbh. She met Grenth, The Judge or one of the Reapers allowed her to return, or she just never moved on because ghosts with unfinished business don't move on to the Mists and she interpreted that as Grenth allowing her to stay.

This feels very different from dialogue such as 

I was a White Mantle before my death...before my calling. I stared into the face of Grenth and he sent me back with true purpose. I am Grenth's hand upon the world. I shall seek out the world's betrayers and show them that there is mercy...but only beyond the gates of death.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gain_Olias
Though I can still see the argument of "it's not literal" happening, since this parallels Nietzche's famous quote. But Olias is actively saying "I met Grenth" whereas Cicely just says "Grenth answered my prayers" - taking the words at face value or at common phrase usage, Cicely did not meet Grenth.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I would disagree that she's saying she met Grenth.

"Grenth answered my prayers" is not an uncommon way of phrasing for a religious person talking about a miracle happening. It could be read as many possible things tbh. She met Grenth, The Judge or one of the Reapers allowed her to return, or she just never moved on because ghosts with unfinished business don't move on to the Mists and she interpreted that as Grenth allowing her to stay.

This feels very different from dialogue such as 

I was a White Mantle before my death...before my calling. I stared into the face of Grenth and he sent me back with true purpose. I am Grenth's hand upon the world. I shall seek out the world's betrayers and show them that there is mercy...but only beyond the gates of death.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gain_Olias
Though I can still see the argument of "it's not literal" happening, since this parallels Nietzche's famous quote. But Olias is actively saying "I met Grenth" whereas Cicely just says "Grenth answered my prayers" - taking the words at face value or at common phrase usage, Cicely did not meet Grenth.

It's not that common for Ghosts who apparently died peacefully and without unfinished business to linger specifically to watch over their family at night. It's downright rare for ghosts to linger in such a state and be perfectly aware of their surroundings and the changes going on in the world, and not see things as they did when they were alive.

Like Olias talking about literally dying and just... getting back up. Did he actually die, or was it a near-death experience? The description of him talks of "An encounter at the temple of ages" And while he speaks of dying and meeting Grenth, did he meet Grenth, or an avatar?

So we have a fully functional ghost who directly talks of asking Grenth to remain at her family farm and watch over them during the nights. We also have a very living man who speaks of dying and meeting Grenth and waking back up, to serve justice toward betrayers. 

Both are equally valid as having dealt with Grenth or an Avatar. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

It's not that common for Ghosts who apparently died peacefully and without unfinished business to linger specifically to watch over their family at night. It's downright rare for ghosts to linger in such a state and be perfectly aware of their surroundings and the changes going on in the world, and not see things as they did when they were alive.

Both statements are explicitly false in the setting of Guild Wars. MOST ghosts in Tyria are fully aware of their surroundings and the changes going on in the world, or capable of such. THIS IS WHY THE FOEFIRE IS SUCH A HUGE DEAL. It doesn't just bind them to the land, it blinds them to their surroundings.

Go to Lair of the Forgotten, or the pirate ghosts in northern Sparkfly Fen, the Demetra ghosts, any of the Halloween ghosts that linger in the world. They're all cognant of their surroundings - some are reliving moments of their life before death, but not all, and even those that are become aware of you as you.

The only notable non-Foefire case of ghosts not being aware of their surroundings or the changes are either simply ignorant (and thus acknowledge the change once exposed to it) or are of the weird situation of the Seraph killed at Fort Salma by Mordrem.

And it's rather explicit, especially in GW1, that almost every ghost that lingers in Tyria has some kind of regret or unfinished business. Very few do we meet peaceful ghosts who are hanging around "just because". Even Cicely had regrets - the safety of her family.

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Like Olias talking about literally dying and just... getting back up. Did he actually die, or was it a near-death experience? The description of him talks of "An encounter at the temple of ages" And while he speaks of dying and meeting Grenth, did he meet Grenth, or an avatar?

So we have a fully functional ghost who directly talks of asking Grenth to remain at her family farm and watch over them during the nights. We also have a very living man who speaks of dying and meeting Grenth and waking back up, to serve justice toward betrayers. 

Both are equally valid as having dealt with Grenth or an Avatar. 

I firmly disagree. Firstly, you seem to be undertoning a mockery of Olias' claim by the whole "died and got back up again" - resurrection magic was a fully functional part of lore in GW1, and notably ceased working after/around the silence of the gods. So assuming Olias did die, it would not be shocking if the god of death who is explicitly known for allowing resurrections and undeath to resurrect someone.

Secondly, as said, Cicely never says she "directly talks of asking Grenth". Especially not directly to Grenth personally - or to an avatar for that matter. Prayers, if taken literal, are done without being in a divine being's direct presence.

[Kalavier.1097]

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Both statements are explicitly false in the setting of Guild Wars. MOST ghosts in Tyria are fully aware of their surroundings and the changes going on in the world, or capable of such. THIS IS WHY THE FOEFIRE IS SUCH A HUGE DEAL. It doesn't just bind them to the land, it blinds them to their surroundings.

And it's rather explicit, especially in GW1, that almost every ghost that lingers in Tyria has some kind of regret or unfinished business. Very few do we meet peaceful ghosts who are hanging around "just because". Even Cicely had regrets - the safety of her family.

Most ghosts are hostile to anything living, with my point being those ghosts are often treating the individual as an automatic enemy of theirs from life. A peaceful ghost who directly talks to you and is completely aware of their surroundings and changes is on the rarer side.

The npcs/gravestone, even herself don't seem to imply that she died in a horrible manner, and "Just watching her family" isn't a regret or unfinished business of the likes we've seen bind other spirits. Other major friendly ghosts that aren't stuck in a loop of reliving their final moments I can think of are the royalty of Orr, and Dunkoro and his group. And those Dwarf ghosts in Thunderhead.

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I firmly disagree. Firstly, you seem to be undertoning a mockery of Olias' claim by the whole "died and got back up again" - resurrection magic was a fully functional part of lore in GW1, and notably ceased working after/around the silence of the gods. So assuming Olias did die, it would not be shocking if the god of death who is explicitly known for allowing resurrections and undeath to resurrect someone.

Secondly, as said, Cicely never says she "directly talks of asking Grenth". Especially not directly to Grenth personally - or to an avatar for that matter. Prayers, if taken literal, are done without being in a divine being's direct presence.

To quote you, saying "Grenth answered my prayers" is a common phrase for a religious person who sees a miracle.

Saying "I saw god/was spoken to" is also a common thing for religious people (or sometimes non-religious) people to say during a near death experience (Or in Gw case, death) that changes them.

Why is Olias saying "I saw Grenth"; an automatic statement of fact, by a peaceful ghost saying "Grenth answered my prayer" not also a statement of action?

Olias mentions death, but his official blurb is "An encounter at the temple of ages". Where the god statues are. If he was betrayed by the white mantle as implied, and the first thing he saw was Grenth's statue, could he not have taken it that way? He could have met Grenth, the judge, an Avatar of Grenth, or just saw a statue.

 

Why is his statement absolute fact, but her statement not indication of Grenth's lingering presence on Tyria before departing completely? As later shown in Orr, when he has tasked a Reaper to retrieve a soul from Zhaitan's grasp.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

17 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Most ghosts are hostile to anything living, with my point being those ghosts are often treating the individual as an automatic enemy of theirs from life. A peaceful ghost who directly talks to you and is completely aware of their surroundings and changes is on the rarer side.

This... isn't true though. Especially in GW1. The Crystal Desert was FULL of friendly ghosts - very few ghosts were hostile in GW2, in fact. Most that were, were driven mad by an external force post-death (such as being thrown into the Realm of Torment) or were individuals who would be hostile in life - hostile because they were hostile people, not because they didn't see you as you really were.

And the same remains true in GW2. Most - though not all - hostile ghosts that aren't affected by the Foefire in GW2 are individuals who would be hostile in life. Such as pirates and white mantle. The narrative of "they're confused and not seeing you as you really are" is actually seldom used in open world.

The only exceptions I can think of are the Seraph in Fort Salma in S2, which I mentioned before, and those who were trapped and overdosed on magic inside the Maguuma Bloodstone. And even then they are fully capable of remembering who they are once distanced from the Bloodstone long enough, as seen in Lake Doric. And the Bloodstone ghosts are, like the Foefire ghosts, in a very unique situation.

And if I am wrong, then please, point out actual examples.

17 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The npcs/gravestone, even herself don't seem to imply that she died in a horrible manner, and "Just watching her family" isn't a regret or unfinished business of the likes we've seen bind other spirits. Other major friendly ghosts that aren't stuck in a loop of reliving their final moments I can think of are the royalty of Orr, and Dunkoro and his group. And those Dwarf ghosts in Thunderhead.

People don't need to "die in a horrible manner" to become ghosts, and yes, being worried about one's family is a regret or unfinished business - if they care strongly enough.

In fact, I'd argue that most Crystal Desert ghosts from GW1 remained as ghosts because of worry for their family when they died from starvation, dehydration, wildlife, or civil war while following Turai Ossa. And we even have a quest that is specifically about that. The mother died, and remained as a ghost because she was worried about her husband and kids. The husband was also a ghost, because of his regret of killing his daughters so they wouldn't be eaten alive.

So not only have we seen ghosts with the exact same motivations and reasoning and even position in the family become a ghost, it was even made a quest.

As for other ghosts that aren't stuck in a loop and are friendly:

1. Ascension pilgrims who died following Turai scattered across the Crystal Desert and Desolation. Some few gather to join Dunkoro by GW2's time.
2. The ghosts of Ascalon Catacombs in pre-Searing Ascalon gw1.
3. Kilnn Testibrie
4. The Sunspear ghosts in Lahtenda Bog in GW1.
5. Leah Stone and Jacob Salinger, who died pretty kittening horrible deaths at the hand of the White Mantle, being sacrificed on the Maguuma Bloodstone but escaped quickly enough to not be driven mad from it.
6. The Sunspear ghosts in the Desolation in GW2.
7. Tomb of the Primeval King ghosts - both royalty and servants - in both GW1 and GW2. Including King Jahnus and his servants in GW1 (Jahnus goes mad in GW2 due to Ley-Line exposure).
8. Dwarven ghosts in dungeons throughout GW1. Including Droknar himself.
9. Orrian royalty as you mentioned.
10. Anton.
11. Priestess Rashenna

And many, many more. Notable hostile ghosts in GW1 include:

• Murakai, who is sane. Also appears in GW2.
• Tortured Spirits and Restless Dead
• Seal Guard, who were driven mad post-death

And this, of course, doesn't touch Ritualist-related ghosties or the various spirits controlled by liches, necromancers, or other undead.

While GW2 certainly increased the amount of "hostile due to confusion", not all hostile ghosts are hostile because of confusion - some ghosts are just the ghosts of assholes. Like those in Fort Cadence - they're pirates defending their haunt (both from life and in death), of course they're hostile!

17 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

To quote you, saying "Grenth answered my prayers" is a common phrase for a religious person who sees a miracle.

Saying "I saw god/was spoken to" is also a common thing for religious people (or sometimes non-religious) people to say during a near death experience (Or in Gw case, death) that changes them.

Why is Olias saying "I saw Grenth"; an automatic statement of fact, by a peaceful ghost saying "Grenth answered my prayer" not also a statement of action?

Olias mentions death, but his official blurb is "An encounter at the temple of ages". Where the god statues are. If he was betrayed by the white mantle as implied, and the first thing he saw was Grenth's statue, could he not have taken it that way? He could have met Grenth, the judge, an Avatar of Grenth, or just saw a statue.

 

Why is his statement absolute fact, but her statement not indication of Grenth's lingering presence on Tyria before departing completely? As later shown in Orr, when he has tasked a Reaper to retrieve a soul from Zhaitan's grasp.

While you're not wrong that "I saw god" is a common thing for religious people to say during near death experiences, the difference is that Olias' case wasn't near death, but actual death. Not to mention this implies hallucinations, and there is no reason to believe in any of Olias' extensive dialogue about Grenth that he was hallucinating (also he wasn't betrayed and injured by White Mantle - it was torment demons who attacked him).

Re-reading more of the quest dialogue, I don't think Olias actually died. He states:

I was a White Mantle before my death...before my calling. I stared into the face of Grenth and he sent me back with true purpose. I am Grenth's hand upon the world. I shall seek out the world's betrayers and show them that there is mercy...but only beyond the gates of death.

Lionguard Figo sent you? Good. A demon tried to drag me through one of their portals. I saw darkness beyond...and strange tentacles. I could hear terrible weeping, as if a thousand chained souls suffered in agony. Then, a skeletal hand reached out to take mine, leading me from that place of torment.

I can no longer deny the power of the Five Gods. Grenth lifted me to safety; I shall serve him the rest of my days.

Well, it could be that a demon tried to drag his soul, and then Grenth saved him via skeletal hand. Or it could be he was still alive. Either way, the White Mantle had nothing to do with his change of faith.

As to the Reaper - for all we know, Grenth gave that task a century ago when Zhaitan rose before departing. Nothing says that was a recent task - and the Reaper is too weak because, as revealed in Hall of Chains, he's been holding back Dhuum's return for quite some time..

Also? I never said Olias' statement was absolute fact. Please stop pulling a Sajuuk and twisting my words. I even stated:

Quote

Though I can still see the argument of "it's not literal" happening, since this parallels Nietzche's famous quote. But Olias is actively saying "I met Grenth" whereas Cicely just says "Grenth answered my prayers" - taking the words at face value or at common phrase usage, Cicely did not meet Grenth.

Additionally, Cicely's claim of her seeing Grenth in 1325 is in blatant and objective disregard for canon created both during core GW2's development and after. According to PoF, Grenth and the others left a long time ago - their departure causing the silence of the Six Gods. Before GW2 began. But Cicely died in 1325, the very same year as core GW2. It also flies in the face of Hall of Chains lore, which established yet again that the River of Souls has been diverted for quite some time, and Dhuum has been gaining power for a while - though no explicit date is given, it's repeatedly said by Glenna that time passes weirdly for the dead and probably Dhuum too, where what may be hours to them has been weeks in Tyria. Which further suggests, with the Reaper's line, that Grenth likely hasn't been around for decades as PoF establishes with the gods leaving shortly after the Elder Dragons began to rise.

ArenaNet uses unreliable narrator a lot more in GW2 than in GW1, and everything points to Cicely, some random NPC, being among them. And in both old canon and new, it seems extremely unlikely that Cicely met with a god who left the place decades or centuries ago.

[Kalavier.1097]

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Additionally, Cicely's claim of her seeing Grenth in 1325 is in blatant and objective disregard for canon created both during core GW2's development and after. According to PoF, Grenth and the others left a long time ago - their departure causing the silence of the Six Gods. Before GW2 began. But Cicely died in 1325, the very same year as core GW2. It also flies in the face of Hall of Chains lore, which established yet again that the River of Souls has been diverted for quite some time, and Dhuum has been gaining power for a while - though no explicit date is given, it's repeatedly said by Glenna that time passes weirdly for the dead and probably Dhuum too, where what may be hours to them has been weeks in Tyria. Which further suggests, with the Reaper's line, that Grenth likely hasn't been around for decades as PoF establishes with the gods leaving shortly after the Elder Dragons began to rise.

ArenaNet uses unreliable narrator a lot more in GW2 than in GW1, and everything points to Cicely, some random NPC, being among them. And in both old canon and new, it seems extremely unlikely that Cicely met with a god who left the place decades or centuries ago.

Cicely is literally base game GW2. She exists in the exact same period as we have a literal Reaper of Grenth tasked to reclaim the lore. She was written and added when GW2 was being developed and was there since day 1. 

 

I was saying you seem to hold Olias's statement in much higher regard then hers,  as if one source is for some reason more reliable then the other.

Both could've seen Grenth. Both could've run into a reaper. Neither is objectively  more reliable then the other.

[Urud.4925]

Even if they are now gone, the gods made heavy metal, and they saw that it was good. So I will still worship them.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

17 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Cicely is literally base game GW2. She exists in the exact same period as we have a literal Reaper of Grenth tasked to reclaim the lore. She was written and added when GW2 was being developed and was there since day 1. 

 

I was saying you seem to hold Olias's statement in much higher regard then hers,  as if one source is for some reason more reliable then the other.

Both could've seen Grenth. Both could've run into a reaper. Neither is objectively  more reliable then the other.

I never said Cicely wasn't base game GW2. I think you need to re-read my statement, because what I'm saying is that Cicely's words is in direct confrontation with statements elsewhere. The Reaper of Grenth doesn't say Grenth is still around, just that he was tasked (at an unspecified time). Cicely, if she met Grenth (which she does not state or imply), Grenth is still around, despite everything else telling us he wasn't - including a statement by Jeff Grubb, who was lead narrative designer alongside Ree Soesbee during the base game's development.

I do hold Olias's statement in higher regard than hers, because of one simple fact: his statement isn't contradicted by other statements. And yes, this does make one source more reliable than the other.

If you have three people, and Person A tells you "Fact A is true", Person B tells you "Fact A is false", and Person C tells you "Fact C is true", of the three people the most reliable is going to be Person C. In this situation, Olias is Person C. Person C may not be correct in the end, but Person C has more credibility until Person D comes along to say "Fact C is false".

That is how credibility in fiction works.

There is also the addendum that Olias claims to have met Grenth, and Cicely doesn't claim to have met Grenth. For "Grenth answered my prayers" to be true, it does not require a direct meeting, just for Grenth to be aware of what's happening in Tyria and to still be in charge of things (which is the contradiction), but for "I saw Grenth's face" to be true, it does require a direct meeting.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Bast Bow.2958]

On 6/19/2023 at 11:22 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

To be fair, the gods were "written out" with Nightfall. The conclusion of Nightfall is literally the gods stepping away from the world. The whole PoF thing about the gods fleeing because Elder Dragons was a retcon despite established canon lore.
So it wasn't "introducing the gods as part of the character creation system just to write them out" but rather "adding the gods as part of the character creation system despite having written them out".
And the point of this is as @Ulysses.2058 mentioned - religion is one of the centerpieces of human culture and society, from Kryta to Elona to Cantha. Though the faith has waned due to their silence (aka departure), as mentioned in the introduction cinematic for humans, it has not perished. And this is a bit of an underlying element of the human side of the story - like how charr have the underlying plot of "loyalty to the legion vs loyalty to the warband" (most notable in situations like the gladium and shaman sire plots, as well as IBS), humans have "remaining faithful vs only relying on yourself" (which gets highlighted the most in S3 and PoF).

Also:

Yes.
The lead narrative designers in 2007-2012 were Jeff Grubb and Ree Soesbee. While they stayed with ArenaNet for a while after, they weren't in the spotlight, suggesting they were working on another game product.
In 2013, with LWS1, Angel McCoy and Scott McGough took over as lead narrative designers. This continued until Season 4 began, in 2018, where Tom Abernathy took over as Lead Narrative Designer until 2022 just before EoD's launch. Bobby Stein, a writer since GW1, is now lead narrative designer.
This will explain why the setup of GW2 doesn't really match anything else in the story - the Elder Dragons were established by writers who stopped working on GW2 after launch.

One of ArenaNet's biggest issues is that they are a "stepping stone company". Which means their employees shift a lot and you only have a handful of consistent developers in the roster, like Bobby Stein and Matthew Medina who (sans a brief period for Medina) have been around since the days of Prophecies but not the ones in charge overall. A lot of .

I haven’t been active in years on these forums. I see you’re still here, helping out in the lore section. Great! And outstanding! Thank you

Edited my English

Edited June 26, 2023 by Bast Bow.2958

[Danikat.8537]

BTW this isn't unique to human characters. All races have a biography choice which has very little impact.

• Asura - their first advisor
• Sylvari - The Cycle they were born in
• Human - The main god they worship
• Norn - the main Spirit of the Wild they follow
• Charr - their sparring partner

All of those will be referenced in the story occasionally and will make minor changes like changing an NPC in the home instance, but otherwise don't do anything.

[Batalix.2873]

On 6/19/2023 at 5:02 AM, BloodyVampyra.3741 said:

I'm truly wondering. Did the writers and directors from 2010 to 2018 completely change?

You answered it yourself. It only really resonates with human characters, and we have four other races that deserve equal treatment in story writing.

As it stands, humans already got a lot of lore writing anyway. Orr featured in Core story. The White Mantle and Kryta in LWS3 (and more Orr). Kormir, Grenth, and Balthazar in PoF/LWS4. And Cantha was nothing but humans.

I wouldn't be surprised if we get a little Lyssa or Melandru related story in a future expac, but a lot of the human god stuff has already been explored.