Weaponmaster Training Beta Feedback: Necromancer

[Flumek.9043]

On 6/30/2023 at 8:27 AM, KrHome.1920 said:

Short feedback:

Every weapon combination works more or less on harbinger, which is nice.

Nothing works on core necro, because core shroud is trash.

Scourge benefits from pistol in all game modes.

Condi reaper benefits from pistol/torch in the competitive modes.

Got exact same results.

1) The biggest boost is to PVP condi builds

2) Greatsword is still clunky greatsword, even on quickness harb

3) Core shroud is weak , actually worse than I thought

4) Dagger #2 change + new trait  is a lot better than I expected.  Removing clunk seems to work

[Batalix.2873]

On 6/29/2023 at 2:50 PM, Lily.1935 said:

Findings so far. from a PvE perspective.

Torch is a strict upgrade to Condi harbinger and Quickness harbinger. There's little reason not to run it over warhorn. Its a slight increase in damage overall.

Pistol on scourge is a significant Damage increase. Brings scourge back in line with were it was before, so behind where it needs to be(although with the balance changes I'll revisit this statement when I do testing after that goes live in the future.). Pistol has proven to be pretty significant beyond just the damage increase though. The life force it generates allows our utility slots to become more free for other stuff as well. Currently I was running Plague signet so I could take insidious disruption but you can take plague sending and some other utility skill while still maintaining your overall DPS. Pistol is a significant quality of life improvement for scourge over all.

Greatsword doesn't solve the issues Power harbinger has. Its just not enough to bring it up to par. I think it'll have some interesting uses in PvP with harbinger dropping on people's heads with a gap closer and dropping nightfall on them, which is interesting but I'm not a PvP player so I can only speculate on how useful that'll be. As for PvE, its really only useful for reaper right now. I've tested it with other builds to like core necromancer and scourge to see if there was a hidden gem, but alas it wasn't good there either.

Reaper using Pistol or torch was fine, but it wasn't as strong as using greatsword for those whirl finishers. Which is good in my opinion because condi reaper using greatsword is a fun build to run and I wouldn't want it to be outshined by P/T.

Overall my suspicions were exactly what I expected.

I can't wait to have players shouting at me for not running pistol on scourge.

For being "build what you want" the design just gets more and more oppressive against players who don't particularly care for particular weapons. And this is only going to get worse.

[Lily.1935]

8 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

I can't wait to have players shouting at me for not running pistol on scourge.

For being "build what you want" the design just gets more and more oppressive against players who don't particularly care for particular weapons. And this is only going to get worse.

talking with people about it and the damage after the July update puts scourge without using pistol far above what it is now. If someone cares that you're not bringing pistol to squeeze out 2k more DPS in a pug they're just being kinda awful. The damage without pistol will be more than enough. I wouldn't concern yourself too much with it.

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

On 6/28/2023 at 8:07 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Please fellow necromancers, we already know that some adjustment are meant to be introduced for scourge in July. Just respect the fact that this thread isn't about the june 27 patch but about the weapons that will be introduced in the next x-pac.

I agree with you, however Scourge (and a few others) are in such a bad spot right now, that any testing on those are painful.
I was looking forward to try Pistol or Greatsword on Scourge, but current Scourge puts me off from even trying. 

Sure you can test it in lower level areas where enemies fall over when you look at them, but that hardly gives any proper feedback. 

Personally I think this Beta needs to be redone at least after the July 18 patch. 

[Asumita.2174]

Signet reaper was one of my favorite relax OW builds to do just about anything PVE, and was excited about testing the new weapon choices. But the complete repeal of the traits from signet of suffering was far worse than expected... Why didn't they at least allow the standard passives to work in shroud by default? Is that too OP? I don't think so. 

Honestly, I lost the incentive to even test the weapons at this point.

[Tidalwave.9384]

15 hours ago, Flumek.9043 said:

Got exact same results.

1) The biggest boost is to PVP condi builds

2) Greatsword is still clunky greatsword, even on quickness harb

3) Core shroud is weak , actually worse than I thought

4) Dagger #2 change + new trait  is a lot better than I expected.  Removing clunk seems to work

This is essentially my experience too in wvw small scale;

Testing anything on core was a doomed attempt immediately since the core shroud isn't good, no matter how good the weapons you were using felt, they were dragged down by the shroud itself.

Greatsword feels terrible on everything since both the AA-chain and #2 are simply too slow to do anything and the payoff isn't really there even if you do land the hits, it really feels like you need quickness for the weapon to feel even ok.  The only good thing about it was that it creates quite unique playstyle on Harbinger thanks to the mobility from the shroud although it still wasn't particularly effective. It feels like the AA-chain and #2 need cast time reductions to be viable and even then the weapon offers very little utility unless you manage to lock someone into #4. On Scourge the pull was interesting for comboing with the elite skill or shroud skill spam but the rest of the kit just wasn't synergistic enough to feel worth it.

The torch was the highlight of everything I tried it on, the weapon simply works. The power coefficients are fine, the cc is nice if unreliable without movement impairing effects, condis are good and it synergises with all main-hand weapons. With no other changes, the torch will essentially become the go-to off-hand weapon for every spec. 

Pistol gives solid flexibility for the builds. Although the weapon itself doesn't feel that good, it's just that the other options are worse. For condi specs it's way above other weapons except for the sceptre and for power it feels equal to the axe. The main problem with the weapon was that on purely direct damage or condi specs the damage is low, it really requires both for the weapon to feel decent. Notably, the pistol autos feel really weak since so much of its power is in the ricochet which is too unreliable. Another benefit especially compared to the axe was the speed, which has more to do with the fact that the axe has a good chunk of its power in the #3 skill which is incredibly easy to avoid.

Although not necessarily meant for this beta test, the main-hand dagger feels amazing. The weapon skills flow well together, the lifeforce generation is very solid especially when traited and the healing is pretty nice. The AA-chain could probably use a single stack of bleed in one of the hits so that you aren't completely reliant on hitting the #3 with its very long cast time for the #2 buff but this is a minor issue. Further helping the weapon is the fact that it works incredibly well with the torch and d/t was the highlight of the beta for me. 

 

Overall the beta highlights how bad some of the current necro weapons are, mostly due to how little actual utility they bring. With the nerfs to the off-hand dagger most of the off-hand weapons feel terrible. focus is carried by the #5 since #4 has a minimal effect outside of the life force generation and never hits unless you are in melee, warhorn #5 is mostly just swiftness and life-force aura with no real impact and the nerfed dagger feels straight-up terrible since the #4 is too unreliable and #5 is very low impact. The main hands fare better since essentially every #3 skill feels impactful even if they all essentially are boonstrips with additional effects. The staff continues being the old reliable which nobody really wants to run but the #4 and #5 alongside the life force generation are too good to pass up. To me, the beta highlights how much the necro weapons need tuning in their vision for the class as currently the vast majority of the weapon skills simply feel like 'deal damage, maybe give life force' while not really adding player agency in their play patterns. It feels like certain skills pay an incredibly heavy price for their life force generation while others just have it stacked on.

Of course, on top of these are the nerfs to the boon corruption which severely limits some playstyles and makes dealing with boonspam that much harder, as the boon conversions forced boon-heavy specs to deal with the debilitating condis that they essentially fed themselves even against a power necro. Currently builds that were changed to plain removal feel significantly worse than before which is directly linked to and reflected in the overall feel of the weapons themselves.

[ericpeggy.8206]

So sand necro and drug necro more similar now.

Maybe one day we can choose classes mark which we like.

Fantastic.

[Riot Inducer.8964]

Well I gave necro weapon combos a good once over. Torch and Pistol are of course the biggest winners here, definitely a strong combo for condi builds no matter the spec. Greatsword while decent on other specs really only seemed like a notable improvement on core necro where your options for power damage are absolutely anemic. 

Honestly testing necro stuff has really reminded me how much core shroud needs a serious tune up along with off-hand dagger and focus. Scepter is probably going to need some more omph too given that its going to be competing with pistol everywhere now.

Oh and it goes without saying that it's hard to gauge the impact of Pistol on Scourge given the absolute mess the spec is in at the moment. Seriously change the kitten duration on sand shades.

[Nimon.7840]

For PvE the Necro weapons felt kinda underwhelming.

Maybe you might see power GS harbinger (if harbinger gets changed)

You might as well see condi harbinger with torch, but not in the pistol set (pistol/dagger, scepter/torch) for a slight dps increase.

And that's already it.

For pvp modes there's more good combos. For example pistol/torch condi scourge/harbinger/reaper just because they offer extra cc.

You could maybe see some Greatsword power scourge for wvw, but I believe GS is just much better on reaper, since you can make gs5 an unlockable pull.

[Sorasnobody.9350]

Popping here to drop some notes on a few of my findings! I want to preface this was all from a solo-play perspective. With how Harbinger and Scourge are both so very similar to each other, I was able to figure out a build that would work for both elite specs by using a combo of pistol/torch & scepter/focus. This means you can play either quickness or alacrity on a solo build, depending on which one you want to play! Each build has differing method of keeping itself alive which keeps the gameplay fresher for each build.

Harbinger:

With the use of dagger/torch & scepter/focus, you have life force across both weapon sets which means you don't need to worry about any life force utility skills, which is great! As I have it designed, you can stay entirely mid-range on this build which is great!

• Pistol/torch is a perfect addition to this build! It gives a lot more condition damage to work with Parasitic Contagion. It carries some extra crowd control too and Oppressive Collapse is nice for might generation!
• Pulling very fair damage for a solo build and it has a lot of healing over time with Blight, regeneration and healing from Parasitic Contagion. Somehow it feels so befitting for a Necromancer!

Scourge:

Not much to offer as unique information that is different to the Harbinger build. It plays exactly the same but you just trade out how you sustain yourself. Out of the two, I did gravitate towards the build because I love barrier as a system, and this uses a lot of barrier spam to sustain itself. I would offer more information on this, but honestly it feels like a mirror of the build above so I can't give any more information on it.

 

I've missed having easy might on Scourge and I wanted to use quickness on Harbinger for soloing but it just didn't have enough damage for my liking, but now it feels like my issues have been rectified which is great. I am looking forward to Secrets of the Obscure for sure with these two specs!

[Obtena.7952]

Biggest feel good moment is using Pistol on a cDPS Scourge. It's nice to know that Scourge players can still be decently effective outside the Alac Healer role . The rest just feels like flavour changes, though Torch outclasses WH in most scenarios. 

Nothing is really broken by this expansion of weapon options on Necro, though it does amplify just how deficient core necro has been in the weapon department for ... the whole game. 

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

17 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Biggest feel good moment is using Pistol on a cDPS Scourge. It's nice to know that Scourge players can still be decently effective outside the Alac Healer role . The rest just feels like flavour changes, though Torch outclasses WH in most scenarios. 

Nothing is really broken by this expansion of weapon options on Necro, though it does amplify just how deficient core necro has been in the weapon department for ... the whole game. 

 

My feelings as well.  When SotO releases proper, DPS Scourge will almost certainly be overpowered, but that has more to do with the changes coming in the 7/18 patch than anything with unlocking elite spec weapons.  I think they're going slightly overboard with the 7/18 changes, and I can see pistol getting nerfed in the future because ANet hates changing something they just changed.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Drarnor Kunoram.5180

[Methuselah.4376]

2 hours ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

ANet hates changing something they just changed.

The 7/18 patch is exactly about changing things they just changed.

[Methuselah.4376]

I'm actually hoping that neither sword is a condi focus weapon. Think about how much condi weapons we have, regardless of melee or ranged. What do we have for melee power? Greatsword and technically dagger. I personally don't really count dagger as a power weapon and more a utility weapon for heal scourge to constantly pump shade skills. We need a good secondary melee power weapon and a good power offhand. 

Core necro all needs some traits rehauled to have power builds viable on other things other than reaper. 

[Asum.4960]

On 7/4/2023 at 9:41 PM, Methuselah.4376 said:

I'm actually hoping that neither sword is a condi focus weapon. Think about how much condi weapons we have, regardless of melee or ranged. What do we have for melee power? Greatsword and technically dagger. I personally don't really count dagger as a power weapon and more a utility weapon for heal scourge to constantly pump shade skills. We need a good secondary melee power weapon and a good power offhand. 

Core necro all needs some traits rehauled to have power builds viable on other things other than reaper. 

What Condi options? Condi Necro has been stuck on swinging nothing but a Scepter for 10 years. Dagger OH is sort of Condi, mainly for the transfer, which has been rendered largely ineffective outside of solo Benchmarking due to cleanse powercreep (with passive/accidental cleanses in group content usually ticking faster than the transfer's cast time), and then eventually Torch OH for Scourge.

Pistol for Harb and Staff are/were sort of hybrid weapons, except for Power hybridising badly, but Staff was eventually pushed to be more of a Power Weapon too - except with still an awful AA (which is where Axe suffers majorly as well). 

And then GS, Axe, Dagger MH, Warhorn and Focus are Power Weapons. 

The Problem with those being that Power options, including the Spite Minors, suck pretty hard - for which only Reaper Shroud and GS can somewhat compensate (after buffs over the years up to tripling the damage of some of it's skills). 

Warhorn and Focus were already bad on launch, and inexplicitly got nerfed and eventually doomed with the Lifesteal mechanic, the damage of which is neither affected by damage multipliers, nor capable of critting. 

And Dagger MH isn't even needed on HSC since Eternal Life is a thing, so it really doesn't even serve any Utility purpose either. But just because it's a bad power Weapon doesn't make it not one. 

 

So really the problem with Power on Necro isn't lack of options, but option quality. 

In essence, while Condi doesn't have any options, Power has plenty bad options. Both suffer from a decade of neglect, as well as single minded, bland design constrictions. 

[Nimon.7840]

On 7/4/2023 at 6:39 PM, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

My feelings as well.  When SotO releases proper, DPS Scourge will almost certainly be overpowered, but that has more to do with the changes coming in the 7/18 patch than anything with unlocking elite spec weapons.  I think they're going slightly overboard with the 7/18 changes, and I can see pistol getting nerfed in the future because ANet hates changing something they just changed.

Why do people think, that pistol will be the go-to weapon for scourge?

Assuming 100% boondurations and full vipers gear, single target:

Scepter vs pistol:

Scepter 2: 11992 dmg, 10s CD

Pistol 2: 9536 dmg, 6s cd -> 19072 dmg if used 2 times (well because of CDs)

Scepter 3: 5x3576= 17880 dmg, 10s cd

Pistol 3: 4712 dmg, 12s CD

Scepter AA-chain: 1799+1799+1799+2356= 7753 dmg

Pistol autoattack: 1391x3= 4173 dmg

Why is pistol used on harbinger then? Because on harbinger you don't autoattack on pistol. If you have a build, for example scourge, that can weave in autoattack chains, scepter is far superior. And pistol generates more life force.

[Asum.4960]

1 hour ago, Nimon.7840 said:

Why do people think, that pistol will be the go-to weapon for scourge?

Assuming 100% boondurations and full vipers gear, single target:

Scepter vs pistol:

Scepter 2: 11992 dmg, 10s CD

Pistol 2: 9536 dmg, 6s cd -> 19072 dmg if used 2 times (well because of CDs)

Scepter 3: 5x3576= 17880 dmg, 10s cd

Pistol 3: 4712 dmg, 12s CD

Scepter AA-chain: 1799+1799+1799+2356= 7753 dmg

Pistol autoattack: 1391x3= 4173 dmg

Why is pistol used on harbinger then? Because on harbinger you don't autoattack on pistol. If you have a build, for example scourge, that can weave in autoattack chains, scepter is far superior. And pistol generates more life force.

It's not a case of versus, but of in addition to. You'll be spamming out both sets of skills off-cooldown.

Since the combination of Pistol 3 Stun, Torch 5 Knockdown, more LF between the weapons to spam even more Shade skills- including Garish Pillar and it's Fear, probably also makes Insidious worthwhile, that then also means running Dagger OH for transfer attempts. 

So you go from camping Scepter+Torch to doubling your actively used weapons skills with Scepter+Torch/Pistol+Dagger OH, and between spamming out Sand Shades, BiP, manual transfer and spamming the Fx twice as hard with more LF, you'll likely barely get to focus on AA anyway*. 

Then they will likely nerf a bunch of things to compensate for the performance increase, and then you will be even more compelled to work twice as hard through this, just to match previous single weapon performance again.

Think of it as a Monetized Speedrun to Repetitive Stress Injuries. I will admit though, Secrets of the Obscure has a better ring to it.

 

*although even though Pistol AA is slightly lower DPS than traited Scepter, Pistol overall makes up for that with higher strike damage, far less ramp time and more LF. So even if you wanted to camp one thing, it would probably be Pistol/Torch.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Asum.4960

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Exactly.  Anything Pistol will be doing is more effective than scepter auto attack waiting for grasping dead, devouring darkness, and sand shade to come off cooldown.  Plus, ya know, more life force to fuel shade abilities.  It's used to swap between pistol and scepter for maximum dps.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Drarnor Kunoram.5180

[Obtena.7952]

18 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

Why do people think, that pistol will be the go-to weapon for scourge?

Assuming 100% boondurations and full vipers gear, single target:

Scepter vs pistol:

Scepter 2: 11992 dmg, 10s CD

Pistol 2: 9536 dmg, 6s cd -> 19072 dmg if used 2 times (well because of CDs)

Scepter 3: 5x3576= 17880 dmg, 10s cd

Pistol 3: 4712 dmg, 12s CD

Scepter AA-chain: 1799+1799+1799+2356= 7753 dmg

Pistol autoattack: 1391x3= 4173 dmg

Why is pistol used on harbinger then? Because on harbinger you don't autoattack on pistol. If you have a build, for example scourge, that can weave in autoattack chains, scepter is far superior. And pistol generates more life force.

I'm going to say it's because two things:

1. Torment is a better condi fit with Scourge than bleed due to incoming Scourge trait changes. 

2. Pistol 'bursts' a total # of condi stacks better than Scepter does, which matters for Target the Weak trait feeding Barbed Precision and that also gives breathing room for Scourge to do it's other good F skills. If I want big stacks of condis from Scepter, you're AAing in your rotation somewhere.

But I think the real point is that there isn't a reason someone couldn't use both Pistol and Scepter depending on what you're after. Personally, I don't see an advantage to using Scepter over Pistol because this game is more than just how much DPS you can output, especially on a spec like Scourge where we will get a decent hybrid of different sustain and offensive skills. 

I would actually think that if you just want a pure cDPS build, you wouldn't use Scourge anyways, so whether Scepter does more DPS or not isn't that important on it. cHarb would be your go to. I'm personally looking forward to CScourge with pistol, simply because it's going to have options on how to play it. 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[XECOR.2814]

10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

I would actually think that if you just want a pure cDPS build, you wouldn't use Scourge anyways, so whether Scepter does more DPS or not isn't that important on it. cHarb would be your go to. I'm personally looking forward to CScourge with pistol, simply because it's going to have options on how to play it. 

Based on the follow up patch note right now. Cdps scourge has very high projected pure dps. So it would be used as pure dps and even better than harbinger because of its flexible and aoe nature and just higher popularity. But sure, I too would imagine that it would be toned down if its higher than pure dps harb in future.

[Lily.1935]

On 7/4/2023 at 12:39 PM, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

My feelings as well.  When SotO releases proper, DPS Scourge will almost certainly be overpowered, but that has more to do with the changes coming in the 7/18 patch than anything with unlocking elite spec weapons.  I think they're going slightly overboard with the 7/18 changes, and I can see pistol getting nerfed in the future because ANet hates changing something they just changed.

They'll have to get over it, sometimes you try something it doesn't work and you move on. That's life. A little humility goes a long way.

IF they're going to nerf something on scourge Demonic lore and Sadistic searing are the clear offenders in future speculation. 33% torment damage and 2 stacks of burning for 5 seconds added to the DPS plus the 2k(probably 3k) boost from Pistol will put them above and beyond what they probably should be. IF It was up to me I'd keep Demonic lore at 25%, have sadistic searing add 1 stack of burning for 5 seconds on skill 2 but keep the other changes suggested.

 

[JiggyStar.6204]

Hello

My name is Jiggy and I am a necromancer main. I must say I am outraged at the news that necromancer is getting a sword. The class does not need another one-handed weapon! It needs more diversity into it, another 2-hander. So far it only has the staff and greatsword. Give it the HAMMER!

You can not tease us with Dhuum and his weapon collection and not give us the option to be little dhuums ourselves. It is so unfair. How am I supposed to use all those cool hammer skins I have unlocked? My necro needs the hammer! It needs the diversity of 2-handed weapons! Stop it with these one-handers all the time. 
Need help designing the move set for hammer? I can help you with that. In fact let me start now:

Attack 1 - A swing with a cone-shaped poison effect, a second swing, a spin that focuses on knocking back one target. 
Attack 2 - A slam with an AOE effect. Summons a graveling for every foe stuck, up to 5.
Attack 3 - Can't have hammer without a leap. A ghostly leap that leaves a trail of poison for 1-2s and foe struck gets hit with 1,6s fear. Not a hard-hitting skill.
And more. To sleepy to write suggestions, but you get the point.

How about you, friends? Do you think Necromancer should get hammer? Where are my hammer bros? 

[vares.8457]

I want the the sword. 

[Biziut.3594]

I want the sword too. 

[Endaris.1452]

But Dhuum's scythe is a staff. It's canon.