Staff needs more support in its kit.

[Asum.4960]

21 hours ago, Darth Pooh.5638 said:

To truly understand staff, you need to understand where it came from and where it is now. Originally, staff was tied to death magic. There was a trait in the old death magic traitline that would enhance your staff quite a bit. When one says ‘death magic’, one says minions. Which is also why there (still) is a regen on #2. The ‘fantasy’ of staff has always been controlling enemies with soft cc from long range while supporting your army of minions with regen uptime.

 Fast forward to today. Old trait-system doesnt exist anymore and staff now has a dedicated trait in soul reaping for some reason. They’re trying bandaid fixes but are too afraid to properly rework it into a new idea, mostly because it’ll very likely upset necro in PvP-gamemodes. Staff still somewhat works for the original idea although it’s used in completely different ways.

And which Trait would that have been, and with what effects?

All I can recall is Staff Mastery (Reduce Staff CD's by 20%) and Greater Marks (Increase Mark radius, as well as making them unblockable) in Death Magic, neither with any Minion connection. Both the CD reduction (and much more reduction since) as well as the radius increase is baseline to Staff these days - and just the Unblockable was moved to Soul Marks, added to it's LF gain added to Marks - which was a dedicated Staff Trait in SR since launch '12 also. 

Maybe I'm missing something though? 

But I think a bit of Regen on Mark of Blood intrinsically linking the weapon thematically to Death Magic and Minions is a bit of a reach. 

Yes, Staff had Traits in DM, but there is a reason the system was reworked and many Traits merged or made baseline - Traits were all over the place, and taking 3+ Traits across 2 different Traitlines just to make one weapon (still not really) work back then wasn't exactly great.

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

neither with any Minion connection

Death Magic is the minion connection.

[Pooh.6897]

20 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

But I think a bit of Regen on Mark of Blood intrinsically linking the weapon thematically to Death Magic and Minions is a bit of a reach.

You're warping my words here, that is not what I said. I never claimed that the regen alone linked staff to Death magic. What I said was, staff used to be linked to Death Magic through the traits it had for staff specifically, especially within the context of the old trait system. You already pointed out what these traits were and what they did. Do you really want me to point out to you just how intrinsically tied Death Magic is to minions, even down to the minor traits it has? Also highlighting the word 'blood' as if that suddenly suggests it's somehow linked to blood magic makes absolutely no sense. Does that also mean that Blood is Power is linked to blood magic? What about blood curse on scepter AA? Or what about Enfeebling Blood on offhand dagger? What about blood fiend? Come on man, you know that labeling staff based on the word usage of 'blood' on #2 makes no sense. Even the minor trait in Blood Magic is called Mark of Evasion, not mark of blood. Yes, the traits Death Magic used to have are now baseline for staff. But that's not my point. My point was that, originally, Staff and Death Magic were connected, much in the same way that Axe and Focus are nowadays connected to Spite through spiteful talisman, Scepter to curses through lingering curse and barbed precision, and Dagger/Warhorn to Blood magic through Overflowing Thirst and Banshee's Wail.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Darth Pooh.5638

[Asum.4960]

23 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Death Magic is the minion connection.

That's not how GW2's Trait system works though? 

That logic is about as watertight as "Power Necro builds are Minion focused because Deadly Strength is in Death Magic". And those Staff Traits in DM were directly competing with the Minion Traits - that doesn't scream synergy. 

11 minutes ago, Darth Pooh.5638 said:

You're warping my words here, that is not what I said. I never claimed that the regen alone linked staff to Death magic. What I said was, staff used to be linked to Death Magic through the traits it had for marks specifically, especially within the context of the old trait system. You already pointed out what these traits were and what they did. Do you really want me to point out to you just how intrinsically tied Death Magic is to minions, even down to the minor traits it has? Also highlighting the word 'blood' as if that suddenly suggests it's somehow linked to blood magic makes absolutely no sense. Does that also mean that Blood is Power is linked to blood magic? What about blood curse on scepter AA? Or what about Enfeebling Blood on offhand dagger? What about blood fiend? Come on man, you know that labeling staff based on the word usage of 'blood' on #2 makes no sense. Even the minor trait in Blood Magic is called Mark of Evasion, not mark of blood.

The point I was trying to make, as you illustrated perfectly, is that it's very easy to fabricate these "connections". That's not how GW2 is designed though. 

A skill having Blood in it's name doesn't make it necessarily related to Blood Magic, and a Weapon having had a Trait in the Death Magic line doesn't necessarily link it to Minions.

And again, the Staff Trait in Soul Reaping has been there since launch as well - weapon Traits and such were all over. 

 

/E: I'm not trying to take away your personal Staff Necro commanding and aiding Minions fantasy, been there done that, but that doesn't translate to making objective remarks about the game's design intentions and history.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Asum.4960

[Pooh.6897]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

The point I was trying to make, as you illustrated perfectly, is that it's very easy to fabricate these "connections". That's not how GW2 is designed though.

A skill having Blood in it's name doesn't make it necessarily related to Blood Magic, and a Weapon having had a Trait in the Death Magic line doesn't necessarily link it to Minions.

Alright, so lets for example look at Focus. What is the one thing that sets focus apart from other off-hands? it rips a lot of boons. What is one thing that Spite does really well and also benefits from? Boonhate. It's not the only thing it does, but it is a big theme within the traitline. I'm not 'fabricating' a connection here, I'm pointing out the facts that are presented on the table. 'Fabricating'  a connection would be claiming that scepter is tied to Spite because it does power damage, and since Spite can enhance power damage through various means that must mean that Scepter is tied to Spite. The way the game was originally designed was that specific playstyles were distilled in the form of traitlines, and often a weapon with a similar playstyle was enhanced by that same traitline, making them both fit together quite nicely. It's not far-reaching or 'fabricating a connection' to state that Scepter and Curses are designed to fit with each other when the entire traitline is geared towards benefitting that weapon directly and specifically, and GW2 is filled with design choices like these. It's not a coincidence that Hammer, mace and shield all go great with Warrior's Defense traitline. It is because they can provide a lot of CC, and the Defense traitline can really benefit from dealing a lot of CC. It's not the only thing Defense does, but it is a big theme within the traitline.

Similarly with how staff used to be and Death Magic. Yes, Minions is not the only thing Death Magic does. But it is a big part of what Death Magic focuses on. I'd even go as far as argue it's the largest theme within Death Magic. Apart from the three traits it has to specifically buff minions in various ways, it also has Soul Comprehension that can be extra beneficial for minion-builds. My point being, yes, making a weapon and traitline fit together is exactly how GW2 was originally designed. Maybe not for every single weapon and traitline in the game, but you can't deny that it's a design choice that very often pops up. A bit too often to be a coincidence.

edit: thinking about it, didnt they just continue the same design decisions when especs came out, tying a weapon to a traitline? It is only recently that they want to come back from that decision with last patch and the upcoming expansion now they realize how limiting that can be to buildcrafting.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Darth Pooh.5638

[Pooh.6897]

5 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

How open would people be to a Guardian-symbols style treatment of the marks?
Staff loses all but one mark, and the marks get tossed about the various two- and off-hand weapons of the necromancer (so each weapon set combination has exactly one mark on slot 4 or 5). And then staff gets to do something else.

I'm kinda liking it. A lot of me liking it is caused by "well, they killed the profession already, can't get any worse than that, really", but... think it could be easily doable.

I'm not saying I'm against the idea, but I'd be worried what, for necro, the difference would be between a mark and a well at that point. Again I'm not saying it's a bad idea, and I certainly do like the idea of marks on focus and i certainly do like symbols on guardian a lot, but that's just my 2 cents.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Darth Pooh.5638

[Riot Inducer.8964]

11 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

How open would people be to a Guardian-symbols style treatment of the marks? 
Staff loses all but one mark, and the marks get tossed about the various two- and off-hand weapons of the necromancer (so each weapon set combination has exactly one mark on slot 4 or 5). And then staff gets to do something else.

I'm kinda liking it. A lot of me liking it is caused by "well, they killed the profession already, can't get any worse than that, really", but... think it could be easily doable.

That is a good point. We have a bespoke skill type and associated trait that are only on one weapon. That's weird. 

That said it would be a pretty big shake up for necro's entire arsenal. Would all marks be ground targeted aoe or could some be pbAoE or target locked AoE? Would they have to be the ones from staff or potentially new ones? Would they replace existing skills or just be updated versions of old skills (i.e. Enfeebling Blood just gets called a mark now)? 

I do like the potential of it and with the associated trait it could be a big buff to some weapons. 

[The Boz.2038]

8 hours ago, Riot Inducer.8964 said:

Would they have to be the ones from staff or potentially new ones? Would they replace existing skills or just be updated versions of old skills (i.e. Enfeebling Blood just gets called a mark now)? 

Potentially new ones, including current skills reframed into marks. I can easily see Enfeebling Blood as a mark, like you mentioned.

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 7/9/2023 at 10:41 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Come on, Warhorn exist... As for staff it's now closer to a hybrid dps weapon than an utility weapon.

Edit: Also, staff is great based on what you want to do with it. It is a very useful tool for casual PvE farming and when you fight a thief that abuse stealth in competitive modes.

I won't even comment on elite specs because GS murders thieves.  But A/D and A/W are so much stronger into thief than staff of all things.  Heck, I'd actually prioritize MH dagger over staff when fighting thief.

I'd actually argue unless the thief just isn't running a stunbreak or unless the thief is bad and doesn't understand they're allowed to dodge marks, I'd put staff down with scepter as the weakest weapons necro has access to for dealing with thief.

Very easy to clown on staff necros because of how easy it is to snuff out the entirety of the weapon's power by dodging skills 4 and 5 and using stealth to not give them LF on AA.

 

[Kozumi.5816]

Staff is working as intended as a power weapon.

Dagger / Warhorn would be a nice support set instead of...whatever the weapons currently are.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Kozumi.5816

[Joncal.9623]

*firmly grasps my staff and stares at y'all* let my necro-staff be, kitten you! 😱

It's one of very few staves in game that isn't utter "sUpPoRt" only, and multi-functional/versatile at that too!
Go and suffer druid/ele staff if you want moar supportive stick. 🙂

Edited July 29, 2023 by Joncal.9623

[Shaogin.2679]

On 7/9/2023 at 3:52 PM, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Guess I didn't express myself clearly enough here, mixing some sarcasm into serious statements.
When I said scourge doesn't outpace anyone as support I meant it's practically dead last.

And beggars can't be choosers. If all the supports outpace you by a country mile, then you're in no position to scoff at having a supportive weapon. They have theirs and it works.
Also a supportive weapon does not mean instant death to it's dps. Revenant staff is quite supportive, yet if put on a power build it does respectable damage next to it's utility.
And let me make myself crystal clear here - the staff in no way, shape or form can stand next to reaper's greatsword and call itself a proper 2h necromancer weapon.

The power budget for a necro 2h is way bigger than what staff received. Which means it could get new funcionality without tossing it's damage output out the window.




 

Just realized you also made the ill-informed post about Scourge being dead in end-game content. So, again, you are wrong in your assessment, and Scourge is actually an incredible Heal Alac build right now. Also, part of the "support" of staff is its ability to generate a ton of life force. Currently, staff has excellent life force generation from range, maintains perma regen, has decent power damage bursts, is a good source of poison, chill, and weakness, great self condi cleanse, and has good cc that can be traited to be unblockable. I feel as though staff has always been more of a PvP utility weapon, but has recently seen more use in PvE due to the damage buffs. Overall it is a great weapon to use for just about any build currently except for maybe a min-max condi dps build. 

I would actually hate to see staff gutted and relegated to just being a support weapon. I currently have a zerker, viper, harrier, and cele staff for each of the builds I play because of how great and versatile it is right now. If they were to make any improvements to staff, I would say perhaps give it some more condi application and make staff 4 transfer conditions from nearby allies as it used to do back during the core days. If staff were to become a pure support weapon, the rest of Necromancers would require nerfs to sustain due to the added sustain that staff would now provide as well. 

So sure, some staff abilities could be improved upon, but staff is not in a bad spot right now and is still a great weapon. It for sure does not need to become some pure support weapon. And Scourge is already performing amazing as a heal alac support build, especially after the last patch.

[Shuzuru.3651]

I personally wouldn't mind to see a staff rework to make it a less boring weapon, it's probably the most boring weapon in the entire game.

I do understand the utility of the "mark trapping" in PvP, so it would be nice to have something like :

- keep 2 mark out of the 4, not necessarily heavy damage one, but more the control one, have them at ammo skill, remove the mark limit number or limit it to 2, so you can have 2 of the 2 one max. 

- change the 2 other skill to different type of skills. 

Doesn't have to be full support, thought, it should be a utility weapon, both defensively (support) and offensively (control)

Not fan of the weapon being a power range weapon, axe/focus should have that role, I think.

And for pure support and "tanking", dagger/warhorn should be the go to. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

it does feel lackluster now that they added regeneration to the healing well, effectively removing staff's only purpose on support builds. i mean sure, it still generates life force which allows spamming scourge skills, but that's about it. it'd be nice if some of the skills affected allies, like the cleanse.

Edited July 31, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Szatko.8132]

I think that basing all the support around Scourge's shade skills is enough, but even if anet wanted to create a dedicated support main hand for a necromancer I'd prefer them to give some love to the main hand dagger, perhaps an aoe heal over time when you stab an enemy with dagger 2. Staff right now is in a good spot as a pvp control/utility weapon. The only problem I personally have with necro's staff is the fact that when you apply all your marks on the ground it feels completely useless and you have to wait for the weapon swap cooldown. What I suggest is to rework staff 1 and staff 2 into something more reactive, while keeping staff 3, 4 and 5 as marks (?)

[Szatko.8132]

7 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

it does feel lackluster now that they added regeneration to the healing well, effectively removing staff's only purpose on support builds. i mean sure, it still generates life force which allows spamming scourge skills, but that's about it. it'd be nice if some of the skills affected allies, like the cleanse.

Healing Scourge doesn't really need more life force generation anyways. It's just better to run dagger + warhorn/torch

[sdaugherty.1984]

On 7/31/2023 at 9:37 PM, Szatko.8132 said:

Staff right now is in a good spot as a pvp control/utility weapon.

Hmmm... Not really. you played necro WvW lately?

[captrowdy.9561]

12 hours ago, sdaugherty.1984 said:

Hmmm... Not really. you played necro WvW lately?

Yes. Staff seems fine. 

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

On 7/9/2023 at 11:23 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

You notice that there isn't a dedicated support weapon for Necro. Great, because it doesn't need it. The support is already baked into the specs. I don't see a problem with that. I DO see a problem with one of the FEW weapon choices we have being converted into a support weapon JUST to satisfy some stigma about needing a dedicated support weapon for a specific role-based build. 

Came across this and laughed so hard. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

Came across this and laughed so hard. 

Sure, if it makes you feel better. Doesn't make what I said any less true.

The part I like is how poorly this thread aged because seeing what Scourge has become since the thread was made, it's even MORE obvious there isn't a need for a 'better support staff'. 

... yet somehow armed with that history, you STILL decided to necro it and try to take the kitten out of me. Astounding. GL though. 👍

Edited October 25, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[XECOR.2814]

- I think auto attacks on staff is outdated, it needs to be or atleast look better. (Maybe bigger hitbox, new and faster projectile animation)

- Staff#2 is honestly a repetitive and low impact skill that does nothing but help create more aoes on ground in large scale settings which is not something positive. It needs some other ability to reliably give the value it gives rn.

- Other abilities are fine and required for staff kit. They have flavour and are impactful. All #3,#4,#5 skill on staff are not spam skills like #2 and each have its own definite purpose.

[SleepyBat.9034]

nah staff is fine, it's not a support weapon.

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

On 10/25/2023 at 11:36 PM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

nah staff is fine, it's not a support weapon.

What would you count it as then? 

[SleepyBat.9034]

2 hours ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

What would you count it as then? 

It's a utility/ weapon, very strong in competitive game modes. Large AoE which is strong when outnumbered,1200 range non-projectile attacks, fear access which has good trait synergy, condition transfer, some sustain via regeneration, good life force generation when traited, unblockable when traited, can be cast while about faced which is perfect for kiting and running away thanks to the chill application it has, you can cast the fear mark under you to interrupt burst specs.

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

10 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

It's a utility/ weapon, very strong in competitive game modes. Large AoE which is strong when outnumbered,1200 range non-projectile attacks, fear access which has good trait synergy, condition transfer, some sustain via regeneration, good life force generation when traited, unblockable when traited, can be cast while about faced which is perfect for kiting and running away thanks to the chill application it has, you can cast the fear mark under you to interrupt burst specs.

It's a self support weapon