Ranger is new signet cata - it gotta be balanced/nerfed next.

[Babylon.8972]

Ranger has become new OP FotM, after signet cata is now gone. It can deal ridiculous amount of damage with very few skills invested.

 

Pull + immob + 10k dmg from pig pet combo is not healthy for the game. I think this gotta be taken look at next.

Balance ideas for Anet, how we get ranger in line with other specs?

 

[rank eleven monk.9502]

Nowhere near close to Signet Cata, classic one trick pony build with 0 sustain.

However, wh4 and pig pull might worth taking a look at. That's all.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

12 minutes ago, rank eleven monk.9502 said:

Nowhere near close to Signet Cata, classic one trick pony build with 0 sustain.

However, wh4 and pig pull might worth taking a look at. That's all.

i don't play ranger all that much but what is the name of this pull?

[bq pd.2148]

15 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

i don't play ranger all that much but what is the name of this pull?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prelude_Lash

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

24 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prelude_Lash

Thank you. i don't know why i couldn't find this skill when i searched pig pet.

[Sahne.6950]

i wonder where the Ranger mains are at....

[RedAvenged.5217]

40 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i wonder where the Ranger mains are at....

I already made a thread saying this build was op a month ago.

and I made another one yesterday.

 

[Drachenfalke.7605]

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i wonder where the Ranger mains are at....

I know where they are.....  

They are now in unranked farming the over-nerfed elementalists...😎

[LughLongArm.5460]

Extremely squishy build. Berserker amulet,  Only 1 stun break with long CD, only 1 condi cleanse part of a situational heal skill. Has to be melee. 

-Problem with the signet Cata was that it was able deal tons of damage while still being one of the most tanky builds in the game. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by LughLongArm.5460

[Khalisto.5780]

I would compare it to nades scrapper after the first round of nerfs

There's plenty counterplay to this build

[Dreams.3128]

4 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i wonder where the Ranger mains are at....

Gonna pin this up at the front of the forum page:

Where's the Ranger brigade at?

[Sahne.6950]

57 minutes ago, Dreams.3128 said:

Where's the Ranger brigade at?

Trevor Boyer.6524 is typing...

 

Why do i hear boss music?

[Mini Crinny.6190]

Crazy people don't see the everlasting cycle, one class becomes op for a while, gets nerfed, next class becomes op for a while, gets nerfed, hasn't been any different,don't play the game but I guess it's rangers turn now

[Sereath.1428]

"Once Ele Cata is deleted from the game, the balance will be amazing 😀. It will be so good that droves of players will come back to sPvP!"

Edited July 26, 2023 by XxsdgxX.8109

[Dreams.3128]

33 minutes ago, XxsdgxX.8109 said:

"Once Ele Cata is deleted from the game, the balance will be amazing 😀. It will be so good that droves of players will come back to sPvP!"

The fact people seriously believed this is bonkers to me.

[Flowki.7194]

3 hours ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

I would compare it to nades scrapper after the first round of nerfs

There's plenty counterplay to this build

 

There was counterplay, and a hard counter (rev cent) to condi cata, but that doesn't change the fact condi cata was a joke, and way harder to play around than the cata just spamming signets and auto attack. Soulbeast is no different though. The amount of damage it does makes up for it not being as tanky as condi cata, you don't need sustain when the target is dead.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Sword Skirmish Soulbeast is a lot like Rifle Mech upon release. It's a nab smasher. It's a very strong build to play against opponents who have l2p issues that can be exploited. It's a great option to play in solo/duo ranked where there is plenty of silver & low gold to target for fast downstates. It is however god awful atrociously bad to play into opponents who are actually good, like in an AT with plat+ vs. plat+.

Few things that can be said that are true about the glaring vulnerabilities of full melee Soulbeast:

1. It is full glass cannon, even glassier than traditional LB/GS Sic Em. For all the damage it deals to you, you can deal that same kind damage to it. It quite seriously pops & dies like a Thief with no toughness no protection.
2. It's too front loaded. For it to be able to get into melee and survive long enough to land damage, it has to blow both Dolyak & Griffon CDs immediately, consecutively. When those two tools are on CD, it has to run away or it stays in combat and pops like a Thief with no toughness no protection. In other words, it has a matter of seconds to one-shot you, and if it can't, if you kite around for 8 seconds and don't die, the Soulbeast loses the confrontation by default.
3. It's way too vulnerable to condis in general, and gets completely ultra hard countered by anything that is a condi tank, such as: 1) Condi Druids - 2) Condi Heralds - 3) Condi Serk - 4) Anything Burn Guard - 5) Condi Mech tears it up - 6) Really just any Condi Ranger in general - 7) PD Condi Thief & Condi Specter which can pulse condis while LOSing - 8} Condi Reapers gets on top of it = dead - 9) Ele condi still tears it all apart - 10) Condi Mirage IH style clone spam condis just destroys it and wins by default while the Mesmer kites forever.
4. It has no real ranged pressure outside of if you burn Warhorn with OWP & Sic Em, which is actually a very distinct easy to see telegraph to dodge or block or invuln through "one of the reasons why I've never favored Warhorn". With no other consistent ranged pressure, full melee Soulbeast is easy to kite to the point that it cannot hit you. No no I mean it, it actually can't hit you with anything outside of possibly Maul or WI if you start kiting up and down elevations, LOSing, and using terrain to advantage. The other attacks don't have large enough radius either horizontally or vertically to do so, and the pathing on Sword 2 & 3 are terrible. If you're getting smacked often by Sword 2s & 3s while not being super hard CCd or immobed, you're doing something very wrong. When you kite it, you can lay all forms of AoE pits for it to have to walk through if it wants to chase, and bait it  into insta-death bursts very very easily. In this scenario, the full melee Soulbeast has no option other than to forward chase you in the most predictable pattern possible, or run away. You only need like 2x stun breaks or 1x break and 1x stab source, to infinitely kite a full melee Soulbeast, virtually never get hit, and remain safe from any lockdown CC one-shots. This is not difficult to do guys. The counter-pressure from even a Core Necro with unblockable marks condis will kill the Soulbeast as the Necro kites with Walk & Wurm before the Soulbeast can kill the Necro. This is how you deal with it.
5. It is a Roamer build. It has no staying presence on-node vs. things like Spellbreaker or Bladesworn or anything Condi Tank, like a Condi Herald. It plays like a DP Daredevil that has more damage than a DP Daredevil, but not quite as good of mobility. It is also much much more easily focused down than a DP Daredevil. The full melee Soulbeast shares this problem in common with things like Tool Holo. These kinds of archetypes can be very strong 1v1, but have serious problems surviving focus to the point that they generally automatically die if caught by 2+ competent players focusing them at a given point in time.

I don't know what went on in the EU MAT this last time around, but in the NA MAT, there were only 2x Soulbeasts being played in the top 5 teams, myself and Pisces. Both of us were running traditional LB/GS Sic Em, no sword, no warhorn. Vallun even pointed this out at one point in his stream, and this is an important thing to note.

You guys have a loooooong way to go before attempting to claim that Soulbeast is the new Catalyst. Keep in mind the Tier OP chart from this thread -> Brief History Of Elementalist Patching - A Highlight Of Overperformance & Balance Neglect - Page 6 - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums What we're looking at with Soulbeast right now is Tier 1 OP, when people are debating if it is or isn't even OP at all. This is a far cry from Signet Catalyst breaking the chart and engineering a new level "God Tier 5 OP" where the entire community unanimously agrees that something is bat**** crazy overpowered and actually has no weaknesses or vulnerabilities in any way shape or form, and even does everything better than every other class.

Full melee Soulbeast falling under a Tier 1 OP, is more like Deadeye before Death's Judgement was nerfed. Even though it isn't being used in higher tiered representation for big reasons of being a liability, it's pumping out too much damage vs. players who don't know how to exploit those liabilities, which is pissing people off. I guarantee you, whether it gets nerfed or not, in a half a month or so after everyone gets used to its telegraphs and learns how to exploit its weaknesses like I described here, the representation rates of this build will plummet.

Oh and also, if you guys were worried about offhand Warhorn, you should be more worried about when they forego the Warhorn for offhand Axe 5. All you have to do is wear Mad King Rune for #6 birds on elite use and Prelude Lash people into the Axe 5 and you get OWP on the birds and the Axe 5. It literally kills everything, even a Bladesworn in like 1.5 seconds. And all of that is also AoE, so you can stealth into a team fight and open up with that with Prelude and kill like 4 people in 1.5 second lol.

So now, after pointing out all the vulnerabilities on this build that categorize it as a Tier 1 OP at best, I've also pointed out the one big secret jank that not many people have noticed yet, and that is the use of Axe 5 offhand with Mad King & Prelude to turn it into an ultimate AoE stealth team fight nuke. <- Now this is actually busted and needs to be addressed. I went ahead and did a short demo of this, which follows with a short discussion about it: GW2 Melee Soulbeast - Forum Discussion - Twitch

In my opinion, the build whether warhorn or axe offhand is mediocre at best in higher tiered play such as the final rounds of ATs, but it has the same problem ranger always has, and that is that it is a noob stomper vs. l2p issues in middle to lower tiers and too easy to use in those tiers, similar to Rifle Mech or free-casting Deadeyes. As such, if they choose to address this issue with nerfs, I think this is what needs to be done:

1. This trait Strider's Strength - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) should not be stacking might. It already grants +240 power just for using sword. There are too many evades on this build, which makes Strider's over the top in terms of passive might stacking in conjunction with the other might stacking it already has in other places, like Smoke Assault natural might stacking during evade that stacks with Strider's might stacking, that also stacks with Potent Ally - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) might stacking, along with sword 1 auto might stacking, and also courage sigil might stacking of you choose to use it. Oh and Griffon Stance - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) is also constantly pumping might. This build is pumping way too much might stacking for how strong the damage output is as a base. Griffon Stance could also afford to see its might generation put down to 1 from 2.
2. Pig Maul Maul (soulbeast porcine) - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) is dealing way too much damage, even on support pigs. It's dealing like nearly +70% more damage than even Worldly Impact on power pets. 
3. Prelude Lash - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) straight up needs to lose the immob or at the very least make it 1s only so there is more counterplay. This simultaneous hard & soft CC is like better than Dragon's Maw and on only a 25s CD. There is a lot wrong with that there.

But those 3x changes should take care of the problem for middle tiers and not damage Ranger builds much for higher tiers.

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Downstate.4697]

I agree it’s not catalyst op and it loses overall effectiveness in higher rated games. It’s fotm because it’s easy to be effective on it and it’s fun to play.

Despite its obvious weaknesses the glaring issues for me is the cooldown to superspeed uptime from griffon stance, pig maul and OWP plus wh4 being unhealthy design. 
 

Axe 5 is also strong into prelude slash, however, losing the on demand fury+stealth+daze isn’t worth it. It forces a 100%melee engagement and it’s stationary.

[Aaron.1294]

@Trevor Boyer.6524w8 so boyce winning mat with this build just w/o sic'em means it's only good against silver? Because this build still works even w/o it just fine while maintaining lots of pressure both ranged and melee (which is why axe offhand would be just an overkill and that's why is not good in comp to warhorn). 

I believe OWP strike delay nerf to 1/2 sec would be ideal (maybe buff owp overall duration to 10 sec instead of 6 sec)

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Aaron.1294

[shion.2084]

17 hours ago, rank eleven monk.9502 said:

Nowhere near close to Signet Cata, classic one trick pony build with 0 sustain.

However, wh4 and pig pull might worth taking a look at. That's all.

Everyone cried tears of anger when engi could stealth (for shorter) and. burst (for less)

 

45 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Sword Skirmish Soulbeast is a lot like Rifle Mech upon release. It's a nab smasher. It's a very strong build to play against opponents who have l2p issues that can be exploited. It's a great option to play in solo/duo ranked where there is plenty of silver & low gold to target for fast downstates. It is however god awful atrociously bad to play into opponents who are actually good, like in an AT with plat+ vs. plat+.

Few things that can be said that are true about the glaring vulnerabilities of full melee Soulbeast:

1. It is full glass cannon, even glassier than traditional LB/GS Sic Em. For all the damage it deals to you, you can deal that same kind damage to it. It quite seriously pops & dies like a Thief with no toughness no protection.
2. It's too front loaded. For it to be able to get into melee and survive long enough to land damage, it has to blow both Dolyak & Griffon CDs immediately, consecutively. When those two tools are on CD, it has to run away or it stays in combat and pops like a Thief with no toughness no protection. In other words, it has a matter of seconds to one-shot you, and if it can't, if you kite around for 8 seconds and don't die, the Soulbeast loses the confrontation by default.
3. It's way too vulnerable to condis in general, and gets completely ultra hard countered by anything that is a condi tank, such as: 1) Condi Druids - 2) Condi Heralds - 3) Condi Serk - 4) Anything Burn Guard - 5) Condi Mech tears it up - 6) Really just any Condi Ranger in general - 7) PD Condi Thief & Condi Specter which can pulse condis while LOSing - 8} Condi Reapers gets on top of it = dead - 9) Ele condi still tears it all apart - 10) Condi Mirage IH style clone spam condis just destroys it and wins by default while the Mesmer kites forever.
4. It has no real ranged pressure outside of if you burn Warhorn with OWP & Sic Em, which is actually a very distinct easy to see telegraph to dodge or block or invuln through "one of the reasons why I've never favored Warhorn". With no other consistent ranged pressure, full melee Soulbeast is easy to kite to the point that it cannot hit you. No no I mean it, it actually can't hit you with anything outside of possibly Maul or WI if you start kiting up and down elevations, LOSing, and using terrain to advantage. The other attacks don't have large enough radius either horizontally or vertically to do so, and the pathing on Sword 2 & 3 are terrible. If you're getting smacked often by Sword 2s & 3s while not being super hard CCd or immobed, you're doing something very wrong. When you kite it, you can lay all forms of AoE pits for it to have to walk through if it wants to chase, and bait it  into insta-death bursts very very easily. In this scenario, the full melee Soulbeast has no option other than to forward chase you in the most predictable pattern possible, or run away. You only need like 2x stun breaks or 1x break and 1x stab source, to infinitely kite a full melee Soulbeast, virtually never get hit, and remain safe from any lockdown CC one-shots. This is not difficult to do guys. The counter-pressure from even a Core Necro with unblockable marks condis will kill the Soulbeast as the Necro kites with Walk & Wurm before the Soulbeast can kill the Necro. This is how you deal with it.
5. It is a Roamer build. It has no staying presence on-node vs. things like Spellbreaker or Bladesworn or anything Condi Tank, like a Condi Herald. It plays like a DP Daredevil that has more damage than a DP Daredevil, but not quite as good of mobility. It is also much much more easily focused down than a DP Daredevil. The full melee Soulbeast shares this problem in common with things like Tool Holo. These kinds of archetypes can be very strong 1v1, but have serious problems surviving focus to the point that they generally automatically die if caught by 2+ competent players focusing them at a given point in time.

I don't know what went on in the EU MAT this last time around, but in the NA MAT, there were only 2x Soulbeasts being played in the top 5 teams, myself and Pisces. Both of us were running traditional LB/GS Sic Em, no sword, no warhorn. Vallun even pointed this out at one point in his stream, and this is an important thing to note.

You guys have a loooooong way to go before attempting to claim that Soulbeast is the new Catalyst. Keep in mind the Tier OP chart from this thread -> Brief History Of Elementalist Patching - A Highlight Of Overperformance & Balance Neglect - Page 6 - Player vs. Player - Guild Wars 2 Forums What we're looking at with Soulbeast right now is Tier 1 OP, when people are debating if it is or isn't even OP at all. This is a far cry from Signet Catalyst breaking the chart and engineering a new level "God Tier 5 OP" where the entire community unanimously agrees that something is bat**** crazy overpowered and actually has no weaknesses or vulnerabilities in any way shape or form, and even does everything better than every other class.

Full melee Soulbeast falling under a Tier 1 OP, is more like Deadeye before Death's Judgement was nerfed. Even though it isn't being used in higher tiered representation for big reasons of being a liability, it's pumping out too much damage vs. players who don't know how to exploit those liabilities, which is pissing people off. I guarantee you, whether it gets nerfed or not, in a half a month or so after everyone gets used to its telegraphs and learns how to exploit its weaknesses like I described here, the representation rates of this build will plummet.

Oh and also, if you guys were worried about offhand Warhorn, you should be more worried about when they forego the Warhorn for offhand Axe 5. All you have to do is wear Mad King Rune for #6 birds on elite use and Prelude Lash people into the Axe 5 and you get OWP on the birds and the Axe 5. It literally kills everything, even a Bladesworn in like 1.5 seconds. And all of that is also AoE, so you can stealth into a team fight and open up with that with Prelude and kill like 4 people in 1.5 second lol.

So now, after pointing out all the vulnerabilities on this build that categorize it as a Tier 1 OP at best, I've also pointed out the one big secret jank that not many people have noticed yet, and that is the use of Axe 5 offhand with Mad King & Prelude to turn it into an ultimate AoE stealth team fight nuke. <- Now this is actually busted and needs to be addressed. I went ahead and did a short demo of this, which follows with a short discussion about it: GW2 Melee Soulbeast - Forum Discussion - Twitch

In my opinion, the build whether warhorn or axe offhand is mediocre at best in higher tiered play such as the final rounds of ATs, but it has the same problem ranger always has, and that is that it is a noob stomper vs. l2p issues in middle to lower tiers and too easy to use in those tiers, similar to Rifle Mech or free-casting Deadeyes. As such, if they choose to address this issue with nerfs, I think this is what needs to be done:

1. This trait Strider's Strength - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) should not be stacking might. It already grants +240 power just for using sword. There are too many evades on this build, which makes Strider's over the top in terms of passive might stacking in conjunction with the other might stacking it already has in other places, like Smoke Assault natural might stacking during evade that stacks with Strider's might stacking, that also stacks with Potent Ally - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) might stacking, along with sword 1 auto might stacking, and also courage sigil might stacking of you choose to use it. Oh and Griffon Stance - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) is also constantly pumping might. This build is pumping way too much might stacking for how strong the damage output is as a base. Griffon Stance could also afford to see its might generation put down to 1 from 2.
2. Pig Maul Maul (soulbeast porcine) - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) is dealing way too much damage, even on support pigs. It's dealing like nearly +70% more damage than even Worldly Impact on power pets. 
3. Prelude Lash - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) straight up needs to lose the immob or at the very least make it 1s only so there is more counterplay. This simultaneous hard & soft CC is like better than Dragon's Maw and on only a 25s CD. There is a lot wrong with that there.

But those 3x changes should take care of the problem for middle tiers and not damage Ranger builds much for higher tiers.

 

Boyce was running SB. during MAT I think.

You say it's a noob smasher, but that statement assumes you're a class that has access to stability, invulns, and multiple stuzbreaks in its meta build.  For certain classes it will counter very high levels of play.   It is a real bad match up for the "meta" scrapper.  They out stealth you, can pull you, can CC you, have more defensives and more durability and their burst does more damage.

[aymnad.9023]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 is correct @shion.2084, @Aaron.1294.  Pig maul + prelude lash are the outliers and the build has weaknesses.

If you have doubts and would rather listen to someone from R55 then Drazeh tried to play it and pretty much said the same thing and struggled vs condi tanks. He even made a tierlist after the mat and said something that sounded like "It looks crazy because Boyce was playing it. Some people tried it and it was not great. Just change pig maul, prelude lash."

Edited July 26, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[shion.2084]

13 minutes ago, aymnad.9023 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 is correct @shion.2084, @Aaron.1294.  Pig maul + prelude lash are the outliers and the build has weaknesses.

If you have doubts and would rather listen to someone from R55 then Drazeh tried to play it and pretty much said the same thing and struggled vs condi tanks. He even made a tierlist after the mat and said "It looks crazy because Boyce was playing it. Just change pig maul, prelude lash and it would just be a good build."

I'm sure it would struggle against condi tanks... what I'm saying is there are many classes without the tools to counter it effectively.    Like they will just get completely farmed... from stealth.. while being CC'd and even if they manage to avoid that the other damage combos it has will one shot them on a single mistake.  

It's an issue of power creep.  It seems like a reasonable build against things with invulns, multiple stuzbreaks and cleanses, ports, huge tanginess and blocks.... but there's a lot of classes with none of that.   

And I do get what is being said... against a coordinated A-tier 5 man this isn't going to fly.  But I play mostly ranked.

Edited July 26, 2023 by shion.2084

[aymnad.9023]

14 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

I'm sure it would struggle against condi tanks... what I'm saying is there are many classes without the tools to counter it effectively.    Like they will just get completely farmed... from stealth.. while being CC'd and even if they manage to avoid that the other damage combos it has will one shot them on a single mistake.  

It's an issue of power creep.  It seems like a reasonable build against things with invulns, multiple stuzbreaks and cleanses, ports, huge tanginess and blocks.... but there's a lot of classes with none of that.   

I think a lot of professions can have a build that meet a few of those requirement. Berserker, mesmer, ele would fit hyper defensive builds,  druid maybe can be close to this category, specter could abuse range and constant condi application. 

I am in favor of changing the values on Maul or reworking prelude lash but I think there are a lot of overreactions just like when people discovered untamed with Boyce so I would give it a little more time.

Edited July 26, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Aaron.1294 said:

so boyce winning mat with this build just w/o sic'em means it's only good against silver?

 

50 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

Boyce was running SB. during MAT I think.

Few points to be made for conjecture:

1. If Grimjack beats you with a Weaver, does that mean Weaver is overperforming?
2. Boyce had advantage with the build during first time use. Any time someone comes in with a new build structure, especially when played by a good player, they have an advantage mechanically because other players are not yet sure how to deal with it, There is a phase that must occur of figuring out how it moves, what it does, and how to shut it down.
3. As I explained in the video, when the full melee Soulbeast is part of a team who is the stronger team, his team mates can apply a greater pressure in the match that alleviates focus from the melee Soulbeast and allows him to ride the pressure and land the gimmick. When I reviewed Teapot's stream, this is what I seen in the EU final of r55 vs. worms, a highly dominant r55 team. Now if you were to clone r55 players and make them fight each other with the same comps only difference being Boyce on RED is melee Soulbeast but Boyce on BLUE is something else, let's say a Condi Herald, what would happen in an equal pressure game like that, is the melee Soulbeast wouldn't have enough pressure to ride to successfully work his gimmick. The BLUE team with a Condi Herald for the counter would win.

Melee Soulbeast is a great build for riding pressure, and in games where it has pressure to ride, it makes the Melee Soulbeast look more effective than it actually is. But in games where the Soulbeast is on the team who has less pressure who is being pressured, it has a very difficult time finding moments to successfully land its gimmick without being caught/focused and immediately exploding on impact. In other words, it is not a carry build in the same way that a strong side noder or support is, or something like a good team fighter that can push a hard offense while staying on the node and having enough defenses to draw aggro while allowing its team to regroup around it. The Melee Soulbeast has to stay away from 1v2ish type situations and wait for the team fighter or the side noder to push a successful hold moment so it can get in with that big DPS. If the team mates around the Melee Soulbeast cannot push a successful hold moment for the Soulbeast to have opportunity to land all that DPS without threat of being targeted/focused into immediate downstate, the Soulbeast ends up kiting around the map and not really being able to get anything done at all.

12 minutes ago, aymnad.9023 said:

I think there are a lot of overreactions just like when people discovered untamed with Boyce so I would give it a little more time.

It'll be gone in a couple of weeks when everyone starts running Condiserks & Condi Heralds ect ect to counter it. 100% guarantee.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Aaron.1294]

@aymnad.9023Yh... Guess I overreacted a lil bit. But I don't really think these builds are healthy either. As you said these are hyper defensive builds which are IMO kind of problematic.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 I said in my previous convos condizerker espec with other bunker condies gonna be insanely strong  after cata nerfs. But that doesn't mean slbeast gonna get erased/nerfed. And I'm pretty sure meta build can actually take a punch due to stances buff and high amount of dodges/stealth uptime. I mean if it was immediate downstate we wouldn't see boyce tanking 4v1 while waiting for support right. We'll see though