How to beat cele harbinger in wvw as ranger?

[Mystiz.8795]

Hi all, I'm wondering if anyone has a reliable way of beating cele harbinger in wvw. By then I mean a proper duel type scenario, not going full zerk and hoping to one shot sic em with long bow. So far the best I could do is to go cele too with full cleanse (anti toxin runes, double sigil of cleansing and generosity), but i can only beat weaker harbis n not the good players. 

Any suggestions? : )

[Dadnir.5038]

There is something that always work on all kind of necromancers: CC.

[Beddo.1907]

Not gonna lie, a good cele harbinger is not really beatable with ranger.

All condi builds are automatically out of the question, since you will be outcleansed and do negligible damage. Defensive builds will either be out paced or won't have damage to kill at all. Power oneshot builds will just result in them waiting for the burst, defending and then having a field trip on your useless remaining kit.

TL;DR: There is no build to win, due to numbers alone.

[Khenzy.9348]

Celestial druid with a few good string of CCs after baiting a couple of stunbreaks and key skills can take one down. It's a foverer stalemate more often than not though.

I don't see any Soulbeast build reliably beating a good one as of right now.

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Mystiz.8795 We've got some strange feedback going on in this thread here.

The truth is that Ranger counter Necromancer by rite of class design, in almost any situation. If you are losing to Necromancers as a Ranger, you are doing something wrong. Both Sic Em Soulbeasts and condi variants like Condi Druid, should win vs. all Necromancer builds with nearly 100% accuracy, unless you are sincerely being outplayed or have poorly designed build structures.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Gotejjeken.1267]

7 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Mystiz.8795 We've got some strange feedback going on in this thread here.

The truth is that Ranger counter Necromancer by rite of class design, in almost any situation. If you are losing to Necromancers as a Ranger, you are doing something wrong. Both Sic Em Soulbeasts and condi variants like Condi Druid, should win vs. all Necromancer builds with nearly 100% accuracy, unless you are sincerely being outplayed or have poorly designed build structures.

Gotta disagree; this is WvW here not sPvP--you won't beat a tanky / cele harb on a condi druid unless you vastly outplay them.  Especially not after the nerfing of ancient seeds, because the counter-pressure of Eclipse just isn't enough to overcome the sustain harb has with the 'lulz all boons' elixer.

I mean I play condi / immob / bleed Druid a lot lot in WvW and probably have only won a duel against a harb a few times and it was like a 10 minute ordeal, same with renegade, barrier spam ele, or really anything that builds super tanky.  I do play Sb/Staff so half my kit is kiting which is another debate, but I do that to survive pretty much any outnumber situation and staff is admittedly less useful in duels.

Anyway, for the topic, I'd recommend Untamed.  Before ppl go 'oh Untamed sucks', you have both built in boon rip and a hate bubble, while also having great sustain, things that are invaluable against the condi pew pew that is harb.  The rest is just outmaneuvering them, as necros are pretty slow but Harb isn't like reaper slow so you still have to be careful.  Untamed also happens to have a ton of super speed, not to mention things like speed runes + all the swiftness ranger has, depending on how hard you want to go into maximizing your builds.  

Edited August 11, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Mystiz.8795]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Gotta disagree; this is WvW here not sPvP--you won't beat a tanky / cele harb on a condi druid unless you vastly outplay them.  Especially not after the nerfing of ancient seeds, because the counter-pressure of Eclipse just isn't enough to overcome the sustain harb has with the 'lulz all boons' elixer.

I mean I play condi / immob / bleed Druid a lot lot in WvW and probably have only won a duel against a harb a few times and it was like a 10 minute ordeal, same with renegade, barrier spam ele, or really anything that builds super tanky.  I do play Sb/Staff so half my kit is kiting which is another debate, but I do that to survive pretty much any outnumber situation and staff is admittedly less useful in duels.

Anyway, for the topic, I'd recommend Untamed.  Before ppl go 'oh Untamed sucks', you have both built in boon rip and a hate bubble, while also having great sustain, things that are invaluable against the condi pew pew that is harb.  The rest is just outmaneuvering them, as necros are pretty slow but Harb isn't like reaper slow so you still have to be careful.  Untamed also happens to have a ton of super speed, not to mention things like speed runes + all the swiftness ranger has, depending on how hard you want to go into maximizing your builds.  

I have to agree with Gotejjeken here, cele harb in wvw is a very different beast from the pvp one. I've spoken to a few good harbis before, and they told me that there really isn't any ranger build that can beat them, which is of course frustrating to hear.

Interestingly, I did have some success with untamed, but only against lousier harbis. Against the good ones I still lose, but it could be a skill issue as I'm very unfamiliar with untamed, and don't know what build to use either. One issue with untamed is that my pet will get killed, which then puts me in a major disadvantage. Do you have any untamed build to recommend?

[Khenzy.9348]

6 hours ago, Mystiz.8795 said:

I have to agree with Gotejjeken here, cele harb in wvw is a very different beast from the pvp one. I've spoken to a few good harbis before, and they told me that there really isn't any ranger build that can beat them, which is of course frustrating to hear.

Interestingly, I did have some success with untamed, but only against lousier harbis. Against the good ones I still lose, but it could be a skill issue as I'm very unfamiliar with untamed, and don't know what build to use either. One issue with untamed is that my pet will get killed, which then puts me in a major disadvantage. Do you have any untamed build to recommend?

The thing is Cele Renegade, Cele Cata and Cele Harbinger (and a good Willy) are by far the three strongest roaming builds right now and, sadly, no ranger build can reliably kill any of them. A good Willbender that cycles defensives well can also turn it into a stalemate (but are more killable than the other three). A marauder/zerker Untamed with Hammer+Sword/Warhorn could work but the moment they decide to sustain and kill your pets, you're pretty much done.

Two of them are going to get even stronger with the coming expansion: Cele Harbinger with Pistol+Torch, and Cele Renegade can now swap to either Cele Herald or Vindicator and still use their overpowered shortbow.

Careful with Sword/sword Harbinger that could gain even more mobility or Willbender with Pistol/pistol with some added ranged pressure.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 I think you're confusing WvW with PvP.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Khenzy.9348

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Khenzy.9348 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 I think you're confusing WvW with PvP.

Do I have to stream it for you? I've been doing it for years.

I could go out into wvw roaming and never once lose a 1v1 with a Sic Em Soulbeast or Celestial Druid.

Most of you guys in here, from reading some of your past posts & commentary on what you run, you guys are running suboptimal builds.

With all due respect and no offense, but seriously guys, Rangers win against Necromancers in pvp and wvw.

When the idea was even proposed that "Cele Harb beats Ranger" I was confused.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

11 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Do I have to stream it for you? I've been doing it for years.

I could go out into wvw roaming and never once lose a 1v1 with a Sic Em Soulbeast or Celestial Druid.

Most of you guys in here, from reading some of your past posts & commentary on what you run, you guys are running suboptimal builds.

With all due respect and no offense, but seriously guys, Rangers win against Necromancers in pvp and wvw.

When the idea was even proposed that "Cele Harb beats Ranger" I was confused.

Sure, a stream would be helpful.

Has to be duels though--can't just be ganking random necros, since OP specifically refers to 'proper duel scenario'.  

I have two myself but haven't posted them here as one I lose as it was right when EoD came out and the most recent end early because was only really testing out the Eclipse changes and was messing up all my usual timing due to ancient seeds being gone.  

About the Untamed, I'm pretty much just running a semi-condition build right now with mostly Dire and some speed runes.  It's not meta but I win a fair amount of fights with it; agree that the pet is the major issue here, have to constantly swap it out to prevent it from dying--basically time it around the shared anguish proc or use a semi-ranged one that is easy for the opponent to forget about (Iboga, Jacranda).  Pets for me are only CC devices, so if they do die can still win, just a lot more annoying to do so.  

[Strider.7849]

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Sure, a stream would be helpful.

Has to be duels though--can't just be ganking random necros, since OP specifically refers to 'proper duel scenario'.  

I have two myself but haven't posted them here as one I lose as it was right when EoD came out and the most recent end early because was only really testing out the Eclipse changes and was messing up all my usual timing due to ancient seeds being gone.  

About the Untamed, I'm pretty much just running a semi-condition build right now with mostly Dire and some speed runes.  It's not meta but I win a fair amount of fights with it; agree that the pet is the major issue here, have to constantly swap it out to prevent it from dying--basically time it around the shared anguish proc or use a semi-ranged one that is easy for the opponent to forget about (Iboga, Jacranda).  Pets for me are only CC devices, so if they do die can still win, just a lot more annoying to do so.  

If you want to up your ranger game, I mean going above a good player to expert, you need to use the pet as more than just CC. Lining up pet burst with yours, using them to body block hits, learning how they cast their skills and when. You're effectively playing two things at once. The best soulbeasts I've fought as well, never stay permanently merged - kind of like your greatsword/longbow, you don't utilize only one aspect of your kit.. you need to float in and out of melee range and control your targets.

[Sansar.1302]

As much as Cele harbinger is problematic in smal scale wvw fights ranger is one of few classes that reliable can deal with them on multiple builds. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

13 hours ago, Strider.7849 said:

If you want to up your ranger game, I mean going above a good player to expert, you need to use the pet as more than just CC. Lining up pet burst with yours, using them to body block hits, learning how they cast their skills and when. You're effectively playing two things at once. The best soulbeasts I've fought as well, never stay permanently merged - kind of like your greatsword/longbow, you don't utilize only one aspect of your kit.. you need to float in and out of melee range and control your targets.

Thanks for that but after being top 250 in sPvP multiple times and roaming for 10 years as a Ranger, I'm not going around showing my stuff unless its topical but can go look it up on YT if you want (I don't stream or post anywhere regularly but do have vids up).

Without derailing this topic, pet burst is utterly negligible.  The reason soulbeast doesn't stay perma merge is for the smoke field not the burst--so you can say pets are CC/utility tools.  You don't want to rely on them for damage of any kind--if you don't believe that, set them to fight a random wolf or something in the BL and see how long it takes them to kill it.  

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

I'll bring a perspective from the other side of the engagement and say what I hate seeing as a cele harb.

It's true, condi soulbeasts are pretty much free bags for harbingers.  The best thing to do is to survive until they drop shroud, then hit them with immobilizes.  Stuns work at any time.  Harbinger isn't very effective past 900 range, so even just range-kiting with staff or longbow will work out.  What you can do is go into melee range briefly to bait the elite elixir, then get your defensive cooldowns active for their burst window.  This will usually involve them going into shroud where their mobility skills, highest burst, and hard CC are.  Kite away for this window, blocking and evading as needed.

Also, projectile blocks are immensely annoying.  If you have stability available, getting in a harbinger's face for their burst and using axe 5 can force them to back off.  That shotgun from Shroud 2 hits like a truck, and harbingers aren't expecting to get hit with it themselves.  This can possibly give you an opening,

Ultimately, cele harb is something that rangers can fight against, but I have rarely found one that does so effectively.  It's an uphill battle. Power builds have a much better shot at it because conditions get cleansed easily or can be transferred back.

[Mell.4873]

Keeping them at a distance is probably your best bet. Most Dueling is about baiting out burst skills or heals. 

I normally just Shortbow these tanky classes while I try and survive and heal up with Restorataitive Strikes. But yes Harbinger, Renegade and most Elementalist Celestial builds are a death sentence for Ranger. 

The worst offender of all in WvW roaming in my opinion is Mobility since anyone on a Celestials Class with movement skills can just leave if they get out played. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Arheundel.6451]

3/4 of cele harbingers have both Runes of Speed and the corruptive cloud. and to have enough dmg to be a threat as sic'em SB, you must 100% glass cannon with close to zero sustain...and necros..happen to have 1200 range unblockable marks applying chill/cripple and from there is just pew pew till you run off that couple of cleanse you have on sic'em..then a rush and float and it's game over with the IWIN elite elixir. Even at full zerk build from weapon to gear on something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POQAMlRwAhZiF71+reEpB-zVIYRUwXC2eACo7PAA-w

And if lucky you bring the cele harbinger down to 30% HP...after using your 40s+ CD burst...a mere 70% dmg and you give up everything for that dmg...so sic'em a necro in wvw?....

1. Must be bad
2. Must have everything on CD
3. Must be at less than 70% HP

Anything less and you lose....cele builds are ridiculously tanky and ranger dmg has been neutered a lot, on top of being easy to negate, if you want power to wrestle a cele necro, your best bet is glass chrono/vindi...played well

P.S

you know something is bad...when there are no a dozen nerf threads on the forum or simply nobody ever mentions it

Edited August 13, 2023 by Arheundel.6451

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 8/12/2023 at 3:06 PM, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

It's true, condi soulbeasts are pretty much free bags for harbingers.

That's why you use Druid with +6 extra condi cleanse from DC every 10s or less now with new Lingering Light.

It can't damage Druids with condi.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Ancient seeds was my "Ace up the sleeve" when dealing with harbs on my DPS Druid. Eclipse def doesnt compare. RIP Ancient Seeds. There was other ways this could have been dealt with (like a tradeoff similar to how mirage got their 2nd dodge back)

[Sansar.1302]

10 hours ago, Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

Ancient seeds was my "Ace up the sleeve" when dealing with harbs on my DPS Druid. Eclipse def doesnt compare. RIP Ancient Seeds. There was other ways this could have been dealt with (like a tradeoff similar to how mirage got their 2nd dodge back)

Ancient Seeds Should never been a thing it where disgusting op and it is very good that it got removed.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

9 hours ago, Sansar.1302 said:

Ancient Seeds Should never been a thing it where disgusting op and it is very good that it got removed.

This is why I stated it could have been dealt with differently (hense why I said what I said mate) 🙂

[Maleman.7435]

Boon Strip and Condi Cleanse are the harbinger's enemy. Untamed boon strip with sigils of cleansing go a long way. I've had success with marauder gear and runes of durability + lb/hammer against harbinger. They will try burst you so your pet will strip boons and provide that bubble. They will get immobilized cc'd by your hammer and will try to retreat. Thats when you pew pew them down with your unleashed ambush LB and skill 2 as they run away. Good luck.

[Sansar.1302]

On 8/15/2023 at 4:04 PM, Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

This is why I stated it could have been dealt with differently (hense why I said what I said mate) 🙂

No that trait should not existed in any form. 

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 8/17/2023 at 9:47 AM, Sansar.1302 said:

No that trait should not existed in any form. 

 

Neither should this:

Elixir of Ambition - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

[Burnfall.9573]

On 8/13/2023 at 7:34 AM, Arheundel.6451 said:

3/4 of cele harbingers have both Runes of Speed and the corruptive cloud. and to have enough dmg to be a threat as sic'em SB, you must 100% glass cannon with close to zero sustain...and necros..happen to have 1200 range unblockable marks applying chill/cripple and from there is just pew pew till you run off that couple of cleanse you have on sic'em..then a rush and float and it's game over with the IWIN elite elixir. Even at full zerk build from weapon to gear on something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POQAMlRwAhZiF71+reEpB-zVIYRUwXC2eACo7PAA-w

And if lucky you bring the cele harbinger down to 30% HP...after using your 40s+ CD burst...a mere 70% dmg and you give up everything for that dmg...so sic'em a necro in wvw?....

1. Must be bad
2. Must have everything on CD
3. Must be at less than 70% HP

Anything less and you lose....cele builds are ridiculously tanky and ranger dmg has been neutered a lot, on top of being easy to negate, if you want power to wrestle a cele necro, your best bet is glass chrono/vindi...played well

P.S

you know something is bad...when there are no a dozen nerf threads on the forum or simply nobody ever mentions it

with Sigils of air and blood. This build is dangerous. Great Job! 

[anduriell.6280]

On 8/18/2023 at 8:23 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Neither should this:

Elixir of Ambition - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Correct. But this is anet whom we are talking about.