WvW Balance Update - Outnumbered Buff

[KingHeaven.4590]

We need a way to enhance player retention for WvW.  I feel like the majority reason why people stop playing WvW is because when their server is outnumbered it's so frustrating to try to defend that everybody just quits because it's not fun at all.

How about we add a buff balancer for a team that is "outnumbered" on a map.  Something like the Lord of the Core Keep of the team that is outnumbered now gets "Righteous Indignation" until they are no longer outnumbered.  Yes that would make the Core Keep uncapturable until that team is no longer outnumbered, which I have no problem with.  I would be fine with them making the walls invincible of the core keep when "outnumbered" but that would probably be technically much more difficult then just using the "Righteous Indignation" buff.  I would say it lasts for 5 minutes after the "outnumbered" goes away.

This puts less stress on those players who play during off peak times and are simply trying to defend, maintain and play some even though they are basically solo or only have a few members on.

Sure there are some teams who may utilize this tactically by avoiding a certain map if a big blob is on the map, but if they purposely leave that map, then that blob has full reign and can paper everything else.  As I've said in other posts, I have no problem with making the Core Keep much more difficult to capture or even uncapturable.  

   Thanks, friendly thoughtful replies only.

[joneirikb.7506]

The problem isn't objectives. It's that when your team is outnumbered, 90% of the players thinks the game is no fun, and leave. Basically put, most players when presented with boring actions in the game leave to do something they consider fun instead. Or follow the rewards, which certainly isn't in losing zerg battles in WvW.

No matter what changes you make to objectives or points, all it does is basically fake a slight less extreme difference in points. You could accomplish the exact same thing with just giving each server +1 point per tick.
 

Quote

“The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused.” - Not Dice, ppf

 

[Avion Blade.4869]

Outnumbered Defensive Survival Bonus: +100 Vitality; +100 Toughness, +50% endurance regeneration [Only in team-owned territories]

(Simulates fight or flight mentality, with physical fortitude by sheer will). This helps a little against spawn camp situations as well as it does vs any besieged outnumbered situation).

Edited August 30, 2023 by Avion Blade.4869

[Random dude.5089]

3 hours ago, AlphaLightBringer.7431 said:

We need a way to enhance player retention for WvW.  I feel like the majority reason why people stop playing WvW is because when their server is outnumbered it's so frustrating to try to defend that everybody just quits because it's not fun at all.

How about we add a buff balancer for a team that is "outnumbered" on a map.  Something like the Lord of the Core Keep of the team that is outnumbered now gets "Righteous Indignation" until they are no longer outnumbered.  Yes that would make the Core Keep uncapturable until that team is no longer outnumbered, which I have no problem with.  I would be fine with them making the walls invincible of the core keep when "outnumbered" but that would probably be technically much more difficult then just using the "Righteous Indignation" buff.  I would say it lasts for 5 minutes after the "outnumbered" goes away.

This puts less stress on those players who play during off peak times and are simply trying to defend, maintain and play some even though they are basically solo or only have a few members on.

Sure there are some teams who may utilize this tactically by avoiding a certain map if a big blob is on the map, but if they purposely leave that map, then that blob has full reign and can paper everything else.  As I've said in other posts, I have no problem with making the Core Keep much more difficult to capture or even uncapturable.  

   Thanks, friendly thoughtful replies only.

So your saying that they should apply  invulne  when the team get outnumbered , do you realize what your saying ? so when your basicly losing , everyone just gonna start abusing this , so the moment they see a blob they can't fight , everyone leaves the map , also you said that the enemy team will reign over the map if they do this , but the bosses or walls are invule , how is that make em reign ? sound a bit like you just had an idea and didn't even try to think at all about the down sides.

outnumber is something made for roamers , means when ur on a map and a big blob start taking over and the rest of ur mates either goes to bed or get burned out of wvw , you then start roaming or making a group to take over either camps or duel people which fun on its own , you can't force players to play wvw all day , outnumber buff was nerfed and thats why it was a big down for roamers including warclaw introduction , outnumber was never mean't to help you win unwinable fights.

if you get outnumbered , just switch to either roaming builds or go duel people in the specific zones related to that , also making the core keep more difficult sounds a good idea , but applying that with a good balanced idea is gonna be hard , cause the only thing i can think of is making all structures and bosses have triple health bars but that just make it pointless since it will only affect the time of how much its gonna take for people to kill and take your stuff , other than that , i can't think of much.

[babana.7521]

4 hours ago, AlphaLightBringer.7431 said:

We need a way to enhance player retention for WvW.  I feel like the majority reason why people stop playing WvW is because when their server is outnumbered it's so frustrating to try to defend that everybody just quits because it's not fun at all.

How about we add a buff balancer for a team that is "outnumbered" on a map.  Something like the Lord of the Core Keep of the team that is outnumbered now gets "Righteous Indignation" until they are no longer outnumbered.  Yes that would make the Core Keep uncapturable until that team is no longer outnumbered, which I have no problem with.  I would be fine with them making the walls invincible of the core keep when "outnumbered" but that would probably be technically much more difficult then just using the "Righteous Indignation" buff.  I would say it lasts for 5 minutes after the "outnumbered" goes away.

This puts less stress on those players who play during off peak times and are simply trying to defend, maintain and play some even though they are basically solo or only have a few members on.

Sure there are some teams who may utilize this tactically by avoiding a certain map if a big blob is on the map, but if they purposely leave that map, then that blob has full reign and can paper everything else.  As I've said in other posts, I have no problem with making the Core Keep much more difficult to capture or even uncapturable.  

   Thanks, friendly thoughtful replies only.

So, what you are basically saying is that If I want to keep all my objectives, all I have to do is leave the map, and make it outnumbered therefore it automatically defend itself? nice try. and NO.

Edited August 31, 2023 by babana.7521

[flyingplanet.6912]

6 hours ago, AlphaLightBringer.7431 said:

I feel like the majority reason why people stop playing WvW is because when their server is outnumbered it's so frustrating to try to defend that everybody just quits because it's not fun at all.

NO. the main reason why ppl quit wvw is because there is no content. (and partially balance patches that delete playstyles). It's as simple as that. Not a single game mode in the market can maintain population with same map, same rules, same npc + zero competitiveness for a decade.

Edited August 31, 2023 by flyingplanet.6912

[Sereath.1428]

43 minutes ago, flyingplanet.6912 said:

NO. the main reason why ppl quit wvw is because there is no content. (and partially balance patches that deletes playstyles). It's as simple as that. Not a single game mode in the market can maintain same population with same map, same rules, same npc + zero competitiveness for a decade.

Great point, knee-jerk reaction patches that delete playstyles can in fact cause people to never log back in again. Such as when the Feb 2020 patch happened.
The vast majority of people only have time to get decent at one class and playstyle, and only that because is what they enjoy.

The bad thing about this is that it can also prevent poor game design from being addressed, such as celestial builds right now, many people already love to death their immortal builds that can also kill multiple non-celestial builds on their own.
🟦
But yeah, lack of content is for sure always bad and I mean not getting a single content update for over 5 years.
However, having a large sandbox/number of options for builds does help alot.
Just in contrast with WvW, sPvP was so strictly balanced around Conquest and Automated tournaments that it ended up deleting as many options as possible because anything that disrupts the true conquest experience had to be deleted from the gamemode.
Imagine having only a single gamemode for over 10 years.
🟪
So how is sPvP now? Actually dead, because it's not even fun and diverse. Everyone plays the same exact way:
Try to kill people within a second and if you fail just jump around kiting while your cds reset and try again.

Thats why WvW still has hundreds of active dedicated players, meanwhile sPvP has like 26.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[Mistwraithe.3106]

If I was going to do anything in WvW I would add more maps.

I think it's a shame the desert map got so much negative reaction which seems to have killed the idea of Anet adding any more maps. I'm a relatively new player and the desert map is more confusing to learn so I get it, but it's not that bad either.

New maps would add some variety.

[Thomas.2564]

Remove ALL rewards, WEXP, reward track exp etc.. for capturing meaningless t0 keeps and towers. Then lets see if the ktrainers wanna run around, of peak.

[XenesisII.1540]

14 hours ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

If I was going to do anything in WvW I would add more maps.

I think it's a shame the desert map got so much negative reaction which seems to have killed the idea of Anet adding any more maps. I'm a relatively new player and the desert map is more confusing to learn so I get it, but it's not that bad either.

New maps would add some variety.

It got a negative reaction because they didn't bother with the feedback from the betas. They didn't actually fix the map until months after release when players were flocking to play ebg instead or leaving wvw altogether, and everyone was clamoring to bring back alpines which went out of rotation for 6 months.

I think auric basin would be an awesome template for a wvw jungle type map, not overly complicated like tangled or verdant, and has plenty of areas for ambushes, chokes, multi level fights, etc. Or just take alpines or ebg and convert it with auric basin art assets. 🤷‍♂️

The reality is anet gave up on wvw since 2017 after they were done with the major work of adding skirmish mode and rewards, wvw is a side project that probably only gets looked at when one or two devs get some free time, but probably no one at anet wants to work on wvw at this point. 🤷‍♂️

[TheGrimm.5624]

22 hours ago, AlphaLightBringer.7431 said:

We need a way to enhance player retention for WvW.  I feel like the majority reason why people stop playing WvW is because when their server is outnumbered it's so frustrating to try to defend that everybody just quits because it's not fun at all.

How about we add a buff balancer for a team that is "outnumbered" on a map.  Something like the Lord of the Core Keep of the team that is outnumbered now gets "Righteous Indignation" until they are no longer outnumbered.  Yes that would make the Core Keep uncapturable until that team is no longer outnumbered, which I have no problem with.  I would be fine with them making the walls invincible of the core keep when "outnumbered" but that would probably be technically much more difficult then just using the "Righteous Indignation" buff.  I would say it lasts for 5 minutes after the "outnumbered" goes away.

This puts less stress on those players who play during off peak times and are simply trying to defend, maintain and play some even though they are basically solo or only have a few members on.

Sure there are some teams who may utilize this tactically by avoiding a certain map if a big blob is on the map, but if they purposely leave that map, then that blob has full reign and can paper everything else.  As I've said in other posts, I have no problem with making the Core Keep much more difficult to capture or even uncapturable.  

   Thanks, friendly thoughtful replies only.

As a player that will joke about playing on outnumbered maps since I don't like losing our stuff, I don't think a buff to stats is the way to go. You don't want to get to a point that people ask others to leave a map so that their group can gain a boost. Now that may not happen but with the added stats, it wouldn't be out of the question as some people are already good with asking people to leave maps without it. 

The bonus pips were incentive enough in the past to draw people to go against the odds but that was seen as people farming, but it showed that extra incentive could draw people to still try their hand at taking on an out of balance in populations while playing. So the question then is what is the middle ground so its not considered farming and requires active play versus just having contribution and being on map. Increase the bonus in WXP/Reward track which require kills or taking to have it applied, and 2-3 rolls at the loot table for each kill? 

Personally again this is where I like an opt-in bounty system since this could be covered by a bounty on kills and takes while outnumbered as well provide for incentives in fights, kills, takes, defenses and all manor of gameplay style. That or expand the guild bounties to incorporate it in. As a guild acquire 'x' kills while outnumber, defend or capture 'x' while outnumbered. And the same but less rewarding versions while not outnumbered. We have the infrastructure in the game already for the guild versions but the same interface could be ported to WvW to be applied at the player level as well. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

I think auric basin would be an awesome template for a wvw jungle type map, not overly complicated like tangled or verdant, and has plenty of areas for ambushes, chokes, multi level fights, etc. 

AB would good, though I think most of the HoT maps would make excellent WvW maps. There would lots of options on how to make the build up and take down aspects of gameplay for controlling the map. Again not sure why they don't reuse maps from PvE and convert to WvW maps. 

[XenesisII.1540]

4 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

AB would good, though I think most of the HoT maps would make excellent WvW maps. There would lots of options on how to make the build up and take down aspects of gameplay for controlling the map. Again not sure why they don't reuse maps from PvE and convert to WvW maps. 

I don't know why they don't just use pve maps converted to wvw maps, and add it as a 5th bonus map to fight on, it doesn't need to have the same amount of objectives as borderlands or ebg. Just one copy of it to exist like an ebg map, as long as there's 3 sides and "equal" amount of objectives. Like on a smaller map you could have a smc in the middle, each side gets a tower and one supply camp, no keeps, no ruins, good to go. Or bigger map load it up with ebg number of objectives. But I suspect there aren't many pvp players left at anet. 🤷‍♂️

[Infusion.7149]

Desert BL was a disaster because the laser event was a major lagfest and before warclaw existed. The backlash of that lagfest along with the environment walls everywhere led to a complete revamp of the map to add ramps , the bird shortcut, hay bales, and such.

Adding outnumbered buffs is not going to help anything really. When morale is low, even if PvE-level rewards were given out people would just go PvE: people hate being wiped.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

They could have just left the outnumbered pips alone, but nope they had to break something that wasn't broken to begin with.  

There's like zero benefit to playing outnumbered outside ego.  If I wanna do that I'll just roam, don't need anything else; since most people don't like roaming and would actually like playing the mode, they need to put the pips back (or some equivalent).  

[alteriel valie.4751]

Outnum buff had +5 pips,people used to check maps for the buff to finish faster the chests BUT they used to defend too so they could keep their participation up,which means more people join wvw!
After anet removed it,outunum maps are dead!Only on hb there are people and because it is hb!!
So what anet did is deserted more wvw outside of prime time!! 
Beside the no points on war score for enemy if you get killed,buff now is useless!

Edited September 1, 2023 by alteriel valie.4751

[TexZero.7910]

On 8/30/2023 at 4:55 PM, Avion Blade.4869 said:

Outnumbered Defensive Survival Bonus: +100 Vitality; +100 Toughness, +50% endurance regeneration [Only in team-owned territories]

(Simulates fight or flight mentality, with physical fortitude by sheer will). This helps a little against spawn camp situations as well as it does vs any besieged outnumbered situation).

If you're going to do this it should be in non-team owned since you already have defenders advantage in your own territory.
Not that i advocate arbitrary addition of stats, but the idea should be to promote aggression, not turtling.

[Dawdler.8521]

31 minutes ago, TexZero.7910 said:

Not that i advocate arbitrary addition of stats

There is a way around this while not fiddling with stats - if any side is outnumbered, the sides not outnumbered cannot generate any boons whatsoever.

I can already hear the zergling cries.

It would be glorious.

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

The biggest issue with basically all current and proposed outnumbered fixes is that with current tech, they can only be calculated and applied to a map, instead of being matchup wide.

[Widebody.5071]

On 8/30/2023 at 1:09 PM, AlphaLightBringer.7431 said:

We need a way to enhance player retention for WvW.  I feel like the majority reason why people stop playing WvW is because when their server is outnumbered it's so frustrating to try to defend that everybody just quits because it's not fun at all.

How about we add a buff balancer for a team that is "outnumbered" on a map.  Something like the Lord of the Core Keep of the team that is outnumbered now gets "Righteous Indignation" until they are no longer outnumbered.  Yes that would make the Core Keep uncapturable until that team is no longer outnumbered, which I have no problem with.  I would be fine with them making the walls invincible of the core keep when "outnumbered" but that would probably be technically much more difficult then just using the "Righteous Indignation" buff.  I would say it lasts for 5 minutes after the "outnumbered" goes away.

This puts less stress on those players who play during off peak times and are simply trying to defend, maintain and play some even though they are basically solo or only have a few members on.

Sure there are some teams who may utilize this tactically by avoiding a certain map if a big blob is on the map, but if they purposely leave that map, then that blob has full reign and can paper everything else.  As I've said in other posts, I have no problem with making the Core Keep much more difficult to capture or even uncapturable.  

   Thanks, friendly thoughtful replies only.

For outnumbered wasn't a problem it was the 20 or so random players standing around in spawn and running circuits laps or against a wall for hours on end. Not judging how people play or enjoy the game but after awhile it takes a toll on participation.