[Feedback] Legendary Obsidian Armor

[WRay.2391]

7 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Probably because... that legendary amulet didn't involve any "grind". It's a walk in the park and more of a leggy handout for people having a -at the time- full lw/expansion set than anything else.

This doesn't make sense. If we have definition of a grind as "specific amount of time spent on activities", then it was a grind (at least for new players who didn't have expansions before or didn't complete related achievements). If you happened to be a person who completed everything before, already had a skyscale etc. then it was a handout for you, others had different experience. Plus I said "like amulet was acquired", I didn't mean "use existing achievements". Calculate time you want ppl to grind, introduce new achievements across GW2 world that would require such time to complete, and you have an exciting "grind" rather than dumb and lazy "rift" grind.

If you don't agree than I suppose you consider WvW armor also a handout, because it uses very similar grind model: spend your time for reward, but significantly more exciting as content has variety (depending on server pairing though).

And about walk in the park ... Rifts are exactly walk in the park, as you just running in circles with the zerg. In addition, it is a dumb walk in the park as the variety of rifts is non-existent. In WvW you at least playing against sentient (in most cases) opponent.

[Sobx.1758]

11 hours ago, WRay.2391 said:

This doesn't make sense. If we have definition of a grind as "specific amount of time spent on activities", then it was a grind

What doesn't make sense to me is your rather obvious attempt to water down a ""definition"" of a grind in the way that pretty much whatever you do ingame is grinding now.

11 hours ago, WRay.2391 said:

If you happened to be a person who completed everything before, already had a skyscale etc. then it was a handout for you, others had different experience.

Skyscale has nothing to do with any of this.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[gousgou.5438]

On 9/9/2023 at 8:25 PM, Warscythes.9307 said:

I am honestly just not sure what you are expecting here. What non boring open world activity grind do you think will be much better? There HAS to be a grind and it has to be longer than the existing methods given reasons above. Rifts force you to travel all over which is their compromise. You can tell very obviously they don't have the resource to literally consider everything in game and make you do everything like the some sort of giant scavenger hunt that you think this will be. They are barely putting out releases as it is.

They could make the grind for the legendary armor something like this (for one weight class of armor and then maybe change to a mat/gift collection thing):

1) Get a collection drop from every open world boss event in the game

2) For the 6x pieces of the armor you should get 6x Gifts of Mastery (and offer an exchange for 1x Gift of Battle for 1x Gift of Exploration), 2x Gift of Maguuma Mastery, 2x Gift of Desert Mastery and 2x Gift of Jade Mastery

3) Make the armor cost double the Cubes of Stabilized Dark Energy, Obsidian Shards and Eldritch Scrolls per piece

4) Make a prequisite meta achievement for a kitten ton of different map meta event completions (maybe opening up vendor items with map currency needed to make the armor)

5) It would also be an excellent idea to involve Dungeons by making a prequisite the completion of all paths of all dungeons (by a new meta achievement to make people repeat them)

6) Involve a selection if not all of Jumping Puzzles, Vistas and Mini Dungeons in the game (by a new meta achievement to make people repeat them) 

7) Increase the amount of Gifts of Condensed Might & Gifts of Condensed Magic for certain pieces (for example chest and leggings should require one of each instead of only one of them)

8 ) Make it mandatory for at least one character in the account to have completed the Tyria personal story per weight of the armor you have to make

9) Make meta achievement of collections that require millions of karma for items from heart vendors, vendors spawning after events and merchants across Tyria

10) Make quest chains that involve trading of materials gathered throughout the maps (and make it map specific for example Orrian Truffles for an NPC at Orr)

11) Involve Rift Hunting as a successfully closing a certain amount of T1, T2, T3 rifts all over Tyria (and gathering a way more manageable amount of Essences)

I could go on for freaking ever but you get the idea. You could make people revisit the whole kitten Tyria (and possibly expansion zones) and do open world stuff by the bucket.

Sort of like the meta achievement for the legendary amulet.

What people got was a completely useless, "do rifts until your fingers rot on the keyboard" snooze fest!

Edited September 12, 2023 by gousgou.5438

[Fire Wizard.9285]

It's a pity that this forum has these idiotic emotes instead of motivating people to discuss and write specific suggestions and responses from people who click on them.
Every post there are a few people who emote confused, don't understand the post or have a different opinion? It would be better to know than to allow this stupid emote spam.
I live in strange times..

[Warscythes.9307]

1 hour ago, gousgou.5438 said:

They could make the grind for the legendary armor something like this (for one weight class of armor and then maybe change to a mat/gift collection thing):

1) Get a collection drop from every open world boss event in the game

2) For the 6x pieces of the armor you should get 6x Gifts of Mastery (and offer an exchange for 1x Gift of Battle for 1x Gift of Exploration), 2x Gift of Maguuma Mastery, 2x Gift of Desert Mastery and 2x Gift of Jade Mastery

3) Make the armor cost double the Cubes of Stabilized Dark Energy, Obsidian Shards and Eldritch Scrolls per piece

4) Make a prequisite meta achievement for a kitten ton of different map meta event completions (maybe opening up vendor items with map currency needed to make the armor)

5) It would also be an excellent idea to involve Dungeons by making a prequisite the completion of all paths of all dungeons (by a new meta achievement to make people repeat them)

6) Involve a selection if not all of Jumping Puzzles, Vistas and Mini Dungeons in the game (by a new meta achievement to make people repeat them) 

7) Increase the amount of Gifts of Condensed Might & Gifts of Condensed Magic for certain pieces (for example chest and leggings should require one of each instead of only one of them)

8 ) Make it mandatory for at least one character in the account to have completed the Tyria personal story per weight of the armor you have to make

9) Make meta achievement of collections that require millions of karma for items from heart vendors, vendors spawning after events and merchants across Tyria

10) Make quest chains that involve trading of materials gathered throughout the maps (and make it map specific for example Orrian Truffles for an NPC at Orr)

11) Involve Rift Hunting as a successfully closing a certain amount of T1, T2, T3 rifts all over Tyria (and gathering a way more manageable amount of Essences)

I could go on for freaking ever but you get the idea. You could make people revisit the whole kitten Tyria (and possibly expansion zones) and do open world stuff by the bucket.

Sort of like the meta achievement for the legendary amulet.

What people got was a completely useless, "do rifts until your fingers rot on the keyboard" snooze fest!

I feel you read only half of my post. There's essentially 2 problems with what you want.

1) Do you really think the a non-insignificant portion of the people that asked for open world armor will be ok with doing explorable dungeons? Or difficult jumping puzzles especially if ports are banned? If we include dungeons, then why not fractals? If we include fractals, is strikes really that out of reach at least something like IBS5? The line for what people are ok varies greatly per person and I am willing to bet anything more than the basic go to X and kill boss or do story will once again annoy the people asking for open world armor.

2) This is the line you missed, I am fairly certain they lack the resource. I know what you are asking for, an adventure through the entire world doing small and niche things and essentially every facet of the game for this. I am going to say they simply can't do it. Have you looked at their past releases? Do you REALLY think EoD is a content filled expansion? Or if "Living story 4" is up to your expectations? SoTo is basically their way of saying you have to pay for LS because charging nothing for them is doing them no favors. To me, is very obvious open world armor is something akin to "if on fire, break glass" sort of thing. They needed to do this as a hook to get people buy the expansion, but they don't have the money to create a scenario that ask for all the list of things. If they are doing well and generating record profit, then I would hold it against them, but they are not. They have tried to swapping content release schedule and method for what feels to be the 4 or 5th time by now. Therefore the compromise they reached is rifts. You are forced to travel throughout the world and perform the bare minimal to hit a bunch of mobs and leave, until convergence and depending on how that goes at least. Therefore everyone is at least ok on a bare minimal requirement. Anything beyond that is very likely just out of their capacity. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Manasa Devi.7958]

1 hour ago, Fire Wizard.9285 said:

It's a pity that this forum has these idiotic emotes instead of motivating people to discuss and write specific suggestions and responses from people who click on them.
Every post there are a few people who emote confused, don't understand the post or have a different opinion? It would be better to know than to allow this stupid emote spam.
I live in strange times..

I consider a confused emote an admittance of mental deficiency.

[WRay.2391]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

What doesn't make sense to me is your rather obvious attempt to water down a ""definition"" of a grind in the way that pretty much whatever you do ingame is grinding now.

Skyscale has nothing to do with any of this.

Waiting your answer about WvW then. Is it a grind or not?

Grind is literally time spent on something. It can be stupid, like rifts, or less stupid, like other means. Depends on how lazy design was.

[Sobx.1758]

16 minutes ago, WRay.2391 said:

Waiting your answer about WvW then. Is it a grind or not?

Waiting for you to stop trying to move away from the discussed topic into your ever so increasing in numbers new strawman attemptes. If you like other ways better, do the other ways.

16 minutes ago, WRay.2391 said:

Grind is literally time spent on something. It can be stupid, like rifts, or less stupid, like other means.

No, it's not. It's your re-invention of the term that becomes "whatever I do ingame, it's grind". But it's not and that's not what it means. 🙄

Edited September 12, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Cynder.2509]

What did you expect? It's legendary armor. 
What do you think we raiders had to do to earn our full sets of armor?
It's only fair that easy open world armor needs to be balanced out with grind while raids actually take more amount of skill than just pressing 1 and following around a tag like a headless chicken which 90% of this playerbase basically does. 
Also people who got theirs from PvP and WvW had to grind as well and didn't complain. 
Be grateful you're able to get legendary armor at all.
 

[WRay.2391]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Waiting for you to stop trying to move away from the discussed topic into your ever so increasing in numbers new strawman attemptes. If you like other ways better, do the other ways.

I'm not moving away anything, I'm literally giving feedback. There is no strawman as well, if you think throwing words changes conversation that's not how it works.

You are telling me then my definition of is grind is wrong, then just avoiding clarification why or giving any other definition and trying to stop conversation. That's what I see.

[WRay.2391]

1 minute ago, Cynder.2509 said:

What did you expect? It's legendary armor. 
What do you think we raiders had to do to earn our full sets of armor?
It's only fair that easy open world armor needs to be balanced out with grind while raids actually take more amount of skill than just pressing 1 and following around a tag like a headless chicken which 90% of this playerbase basically does. 
Also people who got theirs from PvP and WvW had to grind as well and didn't complain. 
Be grateful you're able to get legendary armor at all.
 

Again, give me definition of a grind. A lot of ppl like WvW and PvP and play regardless of reward. Other group came there to just get armor. Is it fair to say that first group was handed armor for free and latter group grinded for it?

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, WRay.2391 said:

I'm not moving away anything, I'm literally giving feedback. There is no strawman as well, if you think throwing words changes conversation that's not how it works.

Nah, you were giving feedback by saying you want it in a different way.
You're not really giving feedback by reinventing the terms and pretending amulet was something to "grind".

7 minutes ago, WRay.2391 said:

You are telling me then my definition of is grind is wrong, then just avoiding clarification why or giving any other definition and trying to stop conversation. That's what I see.

I literally explained to you why, at least twice:

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

What doesn't make sense to me is your rather obvious attempt to water down a ""definition"" of a grind in the way that pretty much whatever you do ingame is grinding now.

12 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, it's not. It's your re-invention of the term that becomes "whatever I do ingame, it's grind".

I'm not sure which part of that is unclear for you? 

 

You also consistently attempt throwing out irrelevant strawmen, bringing up things like wvw rewards or "having skyscale" being somehow relevant to "return to" achievements.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[WRay.2391]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I literally explained to you why, at least twice:

I'm not sure which part of that is unclear for you? 

 

You also consistently attempt throwing out irrelevant strawmen, bringing up things like wvw rewards or "having skyscale" being somehow relevant to "return to" achievements.

Skyscale not fully irrelevant, I just got it in the process of getting amulet as the grind was in the same areas that why mentioned.

WvW is totally relevant, as I mentioned in previous post:

5 minutes ago, WRay.2391 said:

Again, give me definition of a grind. A lot of ppl like WvW and PvP and play regardless of reward. Other group came there to just get armor. Is it fair to say that first group was handed armor for free and latter group grinded for it?

What makes you think that one mode should award ppl for doing what they like while others shouldn't. IMO it would be fair to force all legendaries to require same percentage of time to be spent in raids, PvP, WvW and OW to make sure it's a grind for everybody or give everybody a way to acquire it in preferred mode (not lazy implementation of it though like rifts).

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, WRay.2391 said:

Skyscale not fully irrelevant, I just got it in the process of getting amulet as the grind was in the same areas that why mentioned.

Nope, full on strawman irrelevant to anything said in this thread. You "getting it in the process" doesn't change or relates to anything in this thread or the previous posts you responded to.
"You getting skyscale in the process" doesn't influence how the amulet was basically a handout. The only remote "relevance" here is that the "return to" achievements, aside of handing out leggy amulet, also rewarded you with additional currency (a whole stack of each of them that you needed) you could use for skyscale. Which doesn't make anything here "less of a handout". It just... simplified another reward as well. So your proclaimed "relevancy to this thread" seems to be a little... you know, backwards.

2 hours ago, WRay.2391 said:

What makes you think that one mode should award ppl for doing what they like while others shouldn't. IMO it would be fair to force all legendaries to require same percentage of time to be spent in raids, PvP, WvW and OW to make sure it's a grind for everybody or give everybody a way to acquire it in preferred mode (not lazy implementation of it though like rifts).

It was already explained plenty of times in the past, but if you don't understand why competitive modes (where another player's success is your failure and vice versa) have different reward structure than cooperative modes than I'm not sure you have a lot to say about the way rewards are or should be acquired.

So, still:

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I literally explained to you why, at least twice:

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

What doesn't make sense to me is your rather obvious attempt to water down a ""definition"" of a grind in the way that pretty much whatever you do ingame is grinding now.

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, it's not. It's your re-invention of the term that becomes "whatever I do ingame, it's grind".

I'm not sure which part of that is unclear for you? 

Anything unclear about the reason for why your grind ""definition"" is flawed? Exactly which part of the given reasoning you didn't understand or don't agree with?

Edited September 12, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[wolfyrik.2017]

On 9/6/2023 at 1:14 PM, Aravind.9610 said:

It doesn't take longer. Hell, it doesn't even have a time gate like the other methods. What it is, is that its much MUCH more boring than the other three. But it is exactly what everyone asked for. Nothing to do with pvp or instanced content.

That's not true though, is it? The choice isn't the existing path or boring grind. There's countless collections that don't require extensive grind and a lot of PvE content that could be used for it.

Making the process boring was a choice, not a necessity. Your argument is a false dichotomy.

[WRay.2391]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Nope, full on strawman irrelevant to anything said in this thread. You "getting it in the process" doesn't change or relates to anything in this thread or the previous posts you responded to.

It was already explained plenty of times in the past, but if you don't understand why competitive modes (where another player's success is your failure and vice versa) have different reward structure than cooperative modes than I'm not sure you have a lot to say about the way rewards are or should be acquired.

So, still:

Anything unclear about the reason for why your grind ""definition"" is flawed? Exactly which part of the given reasoning you didn't understand or don't agree with?

Yes, please explain again ... First when did I said grind is "whatever you do in game" ...

Grind is literally time spent in game for specific task in order to progress. It's not time "spent" just sitting or standing still, but doing something.

Now we have a perception of these tasks by a player. He may like task it or not. Regardless of likeliness it's a grind. If you enjoy rifts and happy to do it even without rewards, it's still a grind that will progress you towards legendaries. If you like WvW, it's still a grind from progression perspective.

If you want to expand community and make it happy you introduce more exciting tasks that ppl will like doing and that will not be perceived as a grind, rather than dull tasks that will be perceived badly by a big group of players.

I see arguments in the thread that OW players just running around pressing 11111, that's why they need to grind rifts. But rifts are literally activity requiring running in circles pressing 11111. Should it be something designed better to require players to do some explorations, different mechanics if you want them to evolve?

Again, you strawman argument is just annoyance. Giving examples from similar experience in other parts of the game is not a strawman. It's literally comparison.

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, WRay.2391 said:

Yes, please explain again ... First when did I said grind is "whatever you do in game" ...

The moment you came up with your ""definition"" of a grind, saying:

15 hours ago, WRay.2391 said:

If we have definition of a grind as "specific amount of time spent on activities"

This is literally just "being in a game" (not afking since you included "activities") and that's what your definition says "grind" is. Which part of this is still somehow unclear?

Edited September 12, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[WRay.2391]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The moment you came up with your ""definition"" of a grind, saying:

This is literally just "being in a game" (not afking since you included "activities") and that's what your definition says "grind" is. Which part of this is still somehow unclear?

That's the most interesting interpretation I could've imaging. Considering we have legendary amulet in context, activities is not something player decided to do, but tasks defined by game designers. My only argument was that these tasks should not be dull to avoid perception of a grind. If you take it as do whatever you want, then even in WvW it will not work, as you need to keep your participation. So implying this was never an intention.

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, WRay.2391 said:

That's the most interesting interpretation I could've imaging.

Interesting interpretation? I'm not sure there's anything wrong with that "interpretation", it literally just takes your made up ""definition"" of a grind for what it is. And what it is... is being ingame doing whatever. This is your made up definition that's the issue here, not "my interpretation". You can run around DR talking in chat and it's spending "specific amount of time spent on activities". With your ""definition"" anything you do in the game is considered as "grind". That's exactly the point and why this is not a grind or its definition.

Literally why I said what I said when you decided to come up with it:

4 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

(...) rather obvious attempt to water down a ""definition"" of a grind in the way that pretty much whatever you do ingame is grinding now.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[WRay.2391]

Will this work better: "specific amount of time spent on activities designed by developers to progress toward goals"?

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Cynder.2509 said:

What did you expect? It's legendary armor. 
What do you think we raiders had to do to earn our full sets of armor?

Do the content you asked for and considered fun. So, something completely different than Rift grind is.

[BlueJin.4127]

PvP/WvW: Every encounter is different and unique so you basically have an infinite variety for obtaining legendary armors.

Raids: There are dozens of bosses with their own mechanics, phases, and tactics so you have dozens of variety for obtaining legendary armors.

Rifts: Every single rift is basically indistinguishable from each other gameplay-wise so you have no variety for obtaining legendary armors.

Keep in mind that SotO legendary armors aren't finalized, yet. I'm pretty confident that Anet plans to add more ways of obtaining essences in the future than just rifts by the time legendary armors are added. I have a hard time believing that Anet finds it acceptable to have players do thousands of the exact same rift with absolutely no variety.

Edited September 12, 2023 by BlueJin.4127

[WRay.2391]

5 hours ago, BlueJin.4127 said:

PvP/WvW: Every encounter is different and unique so you basically have an infinite variety for obtaining legendary armors.

Raids: There are dozens of bosses with their own mechanics, phases, and tactics so you have dozens of variety for obtaining legendary armors.

Rifts: Every single rift is basically indistinguishable from each other gameplay-wise so you have no variety for obtaining legendary armors.

Keep in mind that SotO legendary armors aren't finalized, yet. I'm pretty confident that Anet plans to add more ways of obtaining essences in the future than just rifts by the time legendary armors are added. I have a hard time believing that Anet finds it acceptable to have players do thousands of the exact same rift with absolutely no variety.

Exactly this. That's why for my last set I just decided to get WvW one. I hope Anet will add new and exciting content to get OW last parts, but seems like I will get my last set before they will release this exciting content.

[Ashen.2907]

The vast majority of WvW and PvP encounters fall into a very few types and/or patterns. The variety is exaggerated. I enjoy both and primarily spend my time in WvW these days, but claims of infinite variety are dramatically overblown.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

On 9/4/2023 at 1:04 AM, GeraldBC.4927 said:

The first thing that sprung out to me seeing the prospective recipes is that they are somehow cheaper to make than envoy armor, on top of not being gated behind raids. Only half a set of condensed trophy gifts per piece? Really? 

That is of course unless the idea is that you only have might OR magic to make, but in exchange you have to make 2 for each piece. 

Consider the gift of researches and the intense resource/ecto sink for motivations. It is more costly than at least WvW armor.