Power Creep, The game is too easy [Merged]

[Widebody.5071]

I may be wrong but it seems to me that the ones who where complaining about everything in WVW, have shifted their focus on PVE. 

[idpersona.3810]

17 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Sadly, people joining content that they don't know what to do in happens very often. Very frequently, will someone join my squad, say nothing even after I ask whether anyone needs explanations, hoping to go unnoticed, then die to the first mechanic, or worse yet, in things like KO, wipe the squad.
Just the other day (2-3 days ago) we had to do boneskinner with 4 or so people, and then did the last 2 phases of OLC with 3 people because everyone preferred to die to the mechanics. This was a run listed in the experienced section mind you. While I agree that IBS 3 and other super easy content can be joined by anyone, I believe I've made myself very clear by saying content meant for people who wish to challenge themselves. Though to be fair, I don't think any of the non CM strikes can realistically be considered challenging either but eh.

We've gotten to a point where it is considered toxic to expect someone who joins group as DPS to actually try to do damage. And the moment you mention that a person maybe isn't pulling their weight, you are the devil himself. I'm fine with people being unable to hit high damage numbers, I never expect it from a pug in the first place, but I find it hard to respect someone not even trying. This is the part where effort comes in, if 9 other people are making sure to contribute as well as they can to either make a run smooth or go faster out of respect for all the other people involved, the other person needs to do the same too.

I think everything you said (and how you said it) is reasonable. I agree there are expectations in the harder content (high fractals, raids, CMs) but I see a lot of complaints about players not wanting to learn, or "they're lazy" or "they just want to be carried" from players on here whenever it comes to any instanced content. And I think a lot of that can just be avoided by communicating expectations and using the experienced tab in LFG. Most responses about someone "not pulling their weight" are not said nicely. It's that sort of ridicule I find very off putting. 

17 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

When it comes to the intended numbers, from the looks of it, the current target benchmark for DPS is about 40-42k. Mechanist was benching 38k while being almost entirely ranged with massive amounts of CC, on demand mobility and unmatched dps uptime, which is why it got nerfed. Keep in mind this was at a time where most power dps specs did around 37-42k.
You can still do over 20k damage with rifle mechanist literally auto attacking and nothing else, so I don't get where this 24k is too much comes from.

the 24k number was just something I remembered from a complaint thread last year. I just threw it out there as an example. I am just kind of curious what numbers people actually expect from various amounts of effort. Like, what the expected numbers are from auto-attacking builds and from the harder piano builds. There just doesn't seem to be much agreement (that I've seen) on where those numbers should really be.

Edited October 3, 2023 by idpersona.3810

[rainhelm.3827]

2 hours ago, idpersona.3810 said:

The bare minimum effort....to enjoy a video game?
People play games for different reasons. At different levels. And with different goals in mind. I don't understand the whole "minimum effort" angle. Why disparage players who are also enjoying the same game you are?

There's different content for different players. That's the whole point. The game needs to be balanced, both around the average player and around the higher end players.

Yes the bare minimum effort because when you participate in group content its no longer just about your own enjoyment, which you could understand if you had the social skills to do so.

When you get booted off of a group for eating every red zone and racing the healers you're the one  creating the problem, its not everyone else being elitist gamer words. They don't want to give you a free ride at their expense.

Edited October 3, 2023 by rainhelm.3827

[Passerbye.6291]

36 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

I think everything you said (and how you said it) is reasonable. I agree there are expectations in the harder content (high fractals, raids, CMs) but I see a lot of complaints about players not wanting to learn, or "they're lazy" or "they just want to be carried" from players on here whenever it comes to any instanced content. And I think a lot of that can just be avoided by communicating expectations and using the experienced tab in LFG. Most responses about someone "not pulling their weight" are not said nicely. It's that sort of ridicule I find very off putting. 

The problem with this is, and it is something I've really come to hate, people keep listing everything in experienced section. When I do training runs, I make a point to list it as such, and yet I keep seeing people say things like, noone looks at training, so we list it in experienced. I find this really annoying mainly because, for years, people asked for separate sections for the two, saying it would make a difference, and we're now seeing basic human nature at play. Even training groups list their LFG in experienced, and similarly, people who need training join experienced runs. 

To give an example on players not wanting to learn, before we 3-manned the OLC, before the first pull, I typed in chat saying "Do not CC the breakbars unless I mark the target". Now, this isn't the best way to go about OLC, as, in an ideal world, you'd want to CC the boss channeling an aoe when the coverage of the aoe is unfavourable to the group, but over time I've come to not expect that from my squads, so now, I make things as foolproof as possible, both for my and their sanity. Anyway, I said this, fast forward 2 minutes and some guy/guys CC'd the boss hard and got us killed. Now, this is what I don't get, the AOE he reversed by CCing was only covering 10% of the arena, there was literally no reason ever for him to CC. I wouldn't mind this as much if I hadn't just warned everyone about that one thing. 
This kind of thing happens very often to me, maybe I attract the type, but I've faced a lot of frustration trying to help people who did not want to be helped. There is a significant number of people out there just wanting to be carried, and we're indirectly supporting that behaviour in our attempts to not alienate casual players. Meanwhile, actual casual players are perfectly capable of doing such content in the first place, some of them simply choose not to. I truly don't think normal strikes are too hard for instance. and I have logs from a kaineng overlook strike run that lasted 1 hour 25 minutes to prove it. But to this day, kaining overlook remains a massive pug killer, because people often join experienced runs without knowing the mechanics and wipe the group with numbers.

 

36 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

the 24k number was just something I remembered from a complaint thread last year. I just threw it out there as an example. I am just kind of curious what numbers people actually expect from various amounts of effort. Like, what the expected numbers are from auto-attacking builds and from the harder piano builds. There just doesn't seem to be much agreement (that I've seen) on where those numbers should really be.

It would be hard to pinpoint a specific number for most people mainly because it all ends up being subjective in the end. From my point of view, however, back when mechanist benched 38k, I felt like I was wasting my time playing power virtuoso, because I had to tryhard to reach the same damage numbers. Ideally, I'd like to avoid that happening again. If at all possible, I'd have low intensity builds capable of doing any and all content, but not do comparable damage to builds with actual rotations.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[Cyninja.2954]

28 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

the 24k number was just something I remembered from a complaint thread last year. I just threw it out there as an example. I am just kind of curious what numbers people actually expect from various amounts of effort. Like, what the expected numbers are from auto-attacking builds and from the harder piano builds. There just doesn't seem to be much agreement (that I've seen) on where those numbers should really be.

That's an entire debate onto its self.

I mean the most reasonable approach could be: maybe have power levels somewhere where not the majority of boss mechanics are being skipped. That would not mesh well with a majority of weaker instanced content players and especially players which refuse to practice (and we are so far beyond this point by now for raids and most strikes, it would likely not go over well with many other players).

Another might be: a minimum understanding of game mechanics, aka have a proper build setup, understand when to run squad/group specific builds and when to maybe run something more jack-of-all (the amount of times weak players bring up the "but I survive with my toughness gear" nonsense is already bad enough), know what defiance damage if, etc. Most low intensity builds cover this and are often VERY easy to execute. Those builds are designed as LOW INTENSITY builds.

Yet another might be: every player should be able to complete any type of content just for being present, and this forum has seen the reactions when that is not the case (see Dragon's End on launch) because there is a certain amount of players which have come to expect rewards for being there and placing any type of challenge before them ruins their game experience.

What most veteran experienced players which enjoy this games instanced content and the combat system are asking for is to not have EVERYTHING dumbed down to the level of sub 80 IQ mush. For that type of content, most of us (at least I have) have accepted open world content to be the right place.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[rainhelm.3827]

8 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

This kind of thing happens very often to me, maybe I attract the type, but I've faced a lot of frustration trying to help people who did not want to be helped. There is a significant number of people out there just wanting to be carried, and we're supporting that behaviour in our attempts to not alienate casual players. Meanwhile actual casual players are perfectly capable of doing such content in the first place, some of them simply choose not to. I truly don't think normal strikes are too hard for instance. and I have logs from a kaineng overlook strike run that lasted 1 hour 25 minutes to prove it. But to this day, kaining overlook remains a massive pug killer, because people often join experienced runs without knowing the mechanics and wipe the group with numbers.

Most commanders are very friendly, almost to a fault. This is how I started my raiding journey I just started joining experienced raids and explaining commanders that I do not have experience but have confidence in both my dps and mechanics knowledge. Most commanders I've interacted with were positive and if not they were at least willing to take a chance with me.

This is already a lot better than my experiences trying to get into raiding in ESO or WoW. GW2 PvE scene gets a bad rep for absolutely no reason. I've witnessed some people getting the boot the kind of people you describe but it does help the group in the end and it gets results.

Edited October 3, 2023 by rainhelm.3827

[Sobx.1758]

38 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

the 24k number was just something I remembered from a complaint thread last year.

Yeah, I've noticed people like guessing and then other people like repeating those guesses to use as parts of their arguments 😄 

Some of the people -possibly one of which you're repeating after- just ran to the forums to complain about dps numbers literally without ever touching a training golem to check the values (both before and after the change). Similar thing happened recently with condi engie btw, the moment some of the people spotted pistol nerfs, they didn't bother checking the impact, just ran to the forum and started claiming nothing -other than condi holo, which they think/thought was the only thing anet targeted, which they based on.... who knows what?- will be viable now and the fact that something was nerfed made it unplayable "so what are they even supposed to play now?". (and yes, all of the above is based on actual comments people posted on this forum)

Edited October 3, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[idpersona.3810]

42 minutes ago, rainhelm.3827 said:

which you could understand if you had the social skills to do so

You seem like a lovely person. (edit: in fairness, your next post comes across as far less snarky)

32 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

The problem with this is, and it is something I've really come to hate, people keep listing everything in experienced section. When I do training runs, I make a point to list it as such, and yet I keep seeing people say things like, noone looks at training, so we list it in experienced. I find this really annoying mainly because, for years, people asked for separate sections for the two, saying it would make a difference, and we're now seeing basic human nature at play. Even training groups list their LFG in experienced, and similarly, people who need training join experienced runs. 

To give an example on players not wanting to learn, before we 3-manned the OLC, before the first pull, I typed in chat saying "Do not CC the breakbars unless I mark the target". Now, this isn't the best way to go about OLC, as, in an ideal world, you'd want to CC the boss channeling an aoe when the coverage of the aoe is unfavourable to the group, but over time I've come to not expect that from my squads, so now, I make things as foolproof as possible, both for my and their sanity. Anyway, I said this, fast forward 2 minutes and some guy/guys CC'd the boss hard and got us killed. Now, this is what I don't get, the AOE he reversed by CCing was only covering 10% of the arena, there was literally no reason ever for him to CC. I wouldn't mind this as much if I hadn't just warned everyone about that one thing. 
This kind of thing happens very often to me, maybe I attract the type, but I've faced a lot of frustration trying to help people who did not want to be helped. There is a significant number of people out there just wanting to be carried, and we're indirectly supporting that behaviour in our attempts to not alienate casual players. Meanwhile actual casual players are perfectly capable of doing such content in the first place, some of them simply choose not to. I truly don't think normal strikes are too hard for instance. and I have logs from a kaineng overlook strike run that lasted 1 hour 25 minutes to prove it. But to this day, kaining overlook remains a massive pug killer, because people often join experienced runs without knowing the mechanics and wipe the group with numbers.

That is all absolutely fair.

I think the problem with KO is that player who want nothing to do with strikes or dealing with punishing boss mechanics are forced into the content to get an expansion box-feature (the turtle). I would guess Anet thought this would funnel casual OW players into doing strikes more regularly, but for the most part is just seemed to upset both group of people. Even with the additional way to get the thruster now, I don't know how common that knowledge is and the Strike still ends up seeming like the obvious way to go about it. So that instance is always going to be ran by players who don't want to be there.

32 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

It would be hard to pinpoint a specific number for most people mainly because it all ends up being subjective in the end. From my point of view, however, back when mechanist benched 38k, I felt like I was wasting my time playing power virtuoso, because I had to tryhard to reach the same damage numbers. Ideally, I'd like to avoid that happening again. If at all possible, I'd have low intensity builds capable of doing any and all content, but not do comparable damage to builds with actual rotations.

I agree that's too high for the amount of effort. And I agree in particular with your last sentence. 
Personally I think LI builds should do respectable enough damage to get into any of the (non-CM) content. That gives new/casual players a way to interact with that content without feeling completely overwhelmed. But again, that part is all subjective and so it's tough to know where that balance is. (and again) I would be really curious to know what Anet thinks of where the numbers should all be (generally speaking).

  

25 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yet another might be: every player should be able to complete any type of content just for being present, and this forum has seen the reactions when that is not the case (see Dragon's End on launch) because there is a certain amount of players which have come to expect rewards for being there and placing any type of challenge before them ruins their game experience.

Yea, DE was a mess at launch. But...i partially agree in any case. There should be some payout for time invested and (for me anyways) that was the biggest issue. I expect my time to be rewarded. And you can spend an hour or 2 and end up with virtually nothing. There should obviously be a reward for success, but time in should count as well (imo). And half (most?) the time it failed it was through no fault of any individual player. You could do everything "right" and still have hours and hours of time wasted. That's just bad design (again, imo). But I also acknowledge that the general complaints went far beyond that.

  

25 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

What most veteran experienced players which enjoy this games instanced content and the combat system are asking for is to not have EVERYTHING dumbed down to the level of sub 80 IQ mush. For that type of content, most of us (at least I have) have accepted open world content to be the right place.

Eh. I both agree and disagree. OW is the place for that. But plenty of the OW stuff also tried to funnel/force those players into some of the instanced content. And that instanced content (at least the ones that new players are forced to go through) should on escalate the difficulty a bit. There's plenty of room for other instanced content to continue that curve, but the things "required" for OW players to do should be only somewhat more difficult than the OW content that came before it. The turtle and leg. collections and now the WV special rewards all come to mind as the sort of places that "require" OW players to dip into instanced content.

Edited October 3, 2023 by idpersona.3810

[Cuks.8241]

56 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

Eh. I both agree and disagree. OW is the place for that. But plenty of the OW stuff also tried to funnel/force those players into some of the instanced content. And that instanced content (at least the ones that new players are forced to go through) should on escalate the difficulty a bit. There's plenty of room for other instanced content to continue that curve, but the things "required" for OW players to do should be only somewhat more difficult than the OW content that came before it. The turtle and leg. collections and now the WV special rewards all come to mind as the sort of places that "require" OW players to dip into instanced content.

  And I feel that's how it is. T1 fracs which are needed for some collections are very easy with Sunqua maybe an exception. There are some that are really not even more difficult than OW.

Even KO is not really difficult. Yeah it's a bit of an outlier but far from hard (just long). I think it's more of a general perception of players. Players on forum talk these crazy numbers over 40k dps which are not realistic in most live fights anyway because you won't have enough uptime. And yeah there can be a bit of an elitist attitude from some players mostly on forums. The thing is being elitist in gw2 pve is like being a 15 year trying to be a bad as in kindergarten playground. GW2 is just not a hardcore pve game. Compared to real raiding games we are playing in kindergarten. Also the comms in game are generally nice and even if you just play awfully no one will really care as long as you are not acting annoying.    

2 hours ago, idpersona.3810 said:

Any toon (imo) can show up for the 3 easy IBS strikes. Or lower level fractals. What's the expected dps for those? 5-8k?

Funnily 5-8k is probably enough to clear many bosses in wing 1-4 raids. Not 100% on this but the dps requirements there are quite low. Doing such dps through the course of the fight of course. 

But yeah such dps is completely fine for t1 and easy strikes. I would say not only IBS3, you can easily count in AE, Ankha, Cold war. Others are also doable because they have no enrage (except HT with soft enrage mechanic) but could get annoying because fights would be long and there are plenty mechanics that kill easily so there is much more room for mistakes.

I haven't been running ArcDPS for some time now but such dps was completely common for strikes at the release. And it went fine. Over time I noticed the general DPS increased a lot. I would say to around 20-25k on average on more stationary fights. Either Anet managed to balance more LI builds, more players learned how to perform or just less players play strikes and those that are left are just better. Probably combination of all of those. 

 

[Luthan.5236]

On a side note: The turtle was a bit different than the special task section from the Wizard's Vault is. Though they changed this now. Before the changes you had to do the strike to get that mount - and to max out your mastery line in EoD. (Since the turtle one was not hidden like the raind one that just does not apper until you do raids.)

The special tasks that want you to do the SotO strikes got introcued with two later updates.  Werent't there in the original ones. And with calculations in some other thread ... even just doign the dailies and weeklies regularly would have been enough to get most interesting rewards. With a few specials ... even better. So ... that 2 strikes might just translate into a few more gold at the more expensive variant. (Getting the limited cheap ones ... 90 at 6 astral acclaim or so - is already covered with dailies and weeklies.) Unless of course you miss a lot of days/weeks on the dailies and weeklies.

They seem to more and more avoid trying to get people into doing such stuff. At least not without alternatives. Halloween the one achievement for the mini - got a way to avoid the clocktower JP. The recent bonus event ... had the JPs as alternative (making it easier for people that can do the JPs) - but they were not required. There are a few small collections or achievements that require the SotO strikes though. (From checking the wiki it seems it is the skyscale skin collection - that has an alternative to buy some required item from the vendor instead. And one part of the Honorary Astral Ward achievement. Jotun Skypiercer.) That is just skins. Noting tied to anything bigger.

[xellink.7568]

On 10/4/2023 at 1:08 AM, idpersona.3810 said:

I think everything you said (and how you said it) is reasonable. I agree there are expectations in the harder content (high fractals, raids, CMs) but I see a lot of complaints about players not wanting to learn, or "they're lazy" or "they just want to be carried" from players on here whenever it comes to any instanced content. And I think a lot of that can just be avoided by communicating expectations and using the experienced tab in LFG. Most responses about someone "not pulling their weight" are not said nicely. It's that sort of ridicule I find very off putting. 

the 24k number was just something I remembered from a complaint thread last year. I just threw it out there as an example. I am just kind of curious what numbers people actually expect from various amounts of effort. Like, what the expected numbers are from auto-attacking builds and from the harder piano builds. There just doesn't seem to be much agreement (that I've seen) on where those numbers should really be.

The very reason why me and Berdandy did the 20k display is to encourage players who are afraid to get into raids that the barrier isn't as high as they think. I also hope that as a commander and trainer of a mega guild (KSC) where our raids trainings are often oversubscribed, that our commanders are not seen as elitists for recommending (note that I used recommend because our guild does not gatekeep via dps) and that 20k is an eventuality for most players to strive for, that it will be a reasonable goal for most players and for those that already hit 20k, trainers especially should opt to bring more utilities instead.

Numbers matter very little to me. What matters most to me is that everyone is having fun and I decided to draw that line at 20k so even if you play with one hand, that number can be achieved. There are optimised variants on the build based on autos such as the symbolic avenger build on accessibility wars. These can achieve 27 K and above damage with very little key presses. I did the benchmark using only a mouse on exotics. Not everyone can afford ascended pieces and some people are stingy on food or have memory problems with consumables, hence 20k on the golem is a fair requirement.

[Burnfall.9573]

~Anet, Relic of Fireworks, Dragonhunter and Thief are still contributing to high levels of Power Creep

Remove?

Edited October 5, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Kozumi.5816]

On 10/3/2023 at 1:41 PM, idpersona.3810 said:

Yea, DE was a mess at launch. But...i partially agree in any case. There should be some payout for time invested and (for me anyways) that was the biggest issue. I expect my time to be rewarded. And you can spend an hour or 2 and end up with virtually nothing. There should obviously be a reward for success, but time in should count as well (imo). And half (most?) the time it failed it was through no fault of any individual player. You could do everything "right" and still have hours and hours of time wasted. That's just bad design (again, imo). But I also acknowledge that the general complaints went far beyond that.

The best part is they never fixed DE's biggest issue:

Zero rewards if you fail.

[Evil Darkness.3061]

Hell naw stop begging for nerffs!!!!!! I like being OP! Lowd don't give them ideas please! 

[Burnfall.9573]

~Anet, don't you think this is getting out of hand?

Edited October 5, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[ShadowKatt.6740]

31 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

~Anet, don't you think this is getting out of hand?

I know you're trying to make a point, but I have absolutely no idea what's even going on in that video.

Honestly, it just looks like every time I log into WvW. Usually on the recieving end of that kinda mob.

[Burnfall.9573]

43 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I know you're trying to make a point, but I have absolutely no idea what's even going on in that video.

Honestly, it just looks like every time I log into WvW. Usually on the recieving end of that kinda mob.

 

If there are mass players. choosing only to play, with one Profession, to gain unfair advantages because of poor balance, bad design with access to high levels of Power Creep....that sends a very clear message that Anet is failing as a game Company, to combat a Toxic Gaming Culture for Guild Wars 2 present and future players.

What I am trying to say is, Anet is promoting a "‘Everyone Else Is Doing It" gaming culture, by tolerating, allowing, poor balance, bad design with power creep, to shape and form, the way players should gain unfair advantages, to win

I hope you understand

Edited October 6, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Jedrik.3109]

57 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

If there are mass players. choosing only to play, with one Profession, to gain unfair advantages because of poor balance, bad design with access to high levels of Power Creep....that sends a very clear message that Anet is failing as a game Company, to combat a Toxic Gaming Culture for Guild Wars 2 present and future players.

What I am trying to say is, Anet is promoting a "‘Everyone Else Is Doing It" gaming culture, by tolerating, allowing, poor balance, bad design with power creep, to shape and form, the way players should gain unfair advantages, to win

I hope you understand

I am very interested. Is this only in the world versus world game mode? Please expound more on this. 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

1 hour ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

If there are mass players. choosing only to play, with one Profession, to gain unfair advantages because of poor balance, bad design with access to high levels of Power Creep....that sends a very clear message that Anet is failing as a game Company, to combat a Toxic Gaming Culture for Guild Wars 2 present and future players.

What I am trying to say is, Anet is promoting a "‘Everyone Else Is Doing It" gaming culture, by tolerating, allowing, poor balance, bad design with power creep, to shape and form, the way players should gain unfair advantages, to win

I hope you understand

Okay....but I also saw when EoD came out that a whole squad of core elementalists ran the Dragons End Meta....just to show they could.

I'm not discounting your point, I'm sure it's valid. I have a holosmith, and I think my holosmith is hella strong. But it also comes off as kinda just a meme.

[Futa.4375]

People are bored and they are creating their own challenge and fun because the game's content doesn't, the video doesn't really mean anything.

Are the classes balanced? No. They will never be balanced, balance patches now act as pretend content patches for ANet because we have almost nothing to look forward to.
 

[Maria Murtor.7253]

Using spike builds, aka focusing a group/a person with a timed skill is as old as Guild Wars 1. I remember playing good old  Chain Lightning Spike in the very first year GW 1 was released. This specific spike was nerfed after some time. But spike builds were and will ever be PvP builds you have to be prepared to face. And that's why a "Infuser" (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Infuse_Health) is seen in (I dunno) 50 % of teams. 

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spike

[Rauderi.8706]

Wanna get rid of the power creep? 

Attribute values need to come way down. 

And let's be honest, after 10+ years, the entire game needs a refactor on stats and itemization. The current model with 30+ attribute sets (and most not even worth it) is just muddy and bad.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

7 hours ago, Rauderi.8706 said:

Wanna get rid of the power creep? 

Attribute values need to come way down. 

And let's be honest, after 10+ years, the entire game needs a refactor on stats and itemization. The current model with 30+ attribute sets (and most not even worth it) is just muddy and bad.

I think I read your comment three or four times, just coming by and seeing if anything was new, and something occured to me. You're right, the entire game needs to be rebalanced. I don't think that's really contraversial but it got me thinking. Why do we have power creep? Well, we have power creep because every time they introduce something new they try to one-up what they had before. So Elite enemies now stand above Champions, and then Legendarys over Elites. And Chronomancers are a little stronger than Mesmers, and Weavers a little stronger than Tempests, and Untamed a little stronger than Soulbeasts, and so on and so on. But that's never really been Guild Wars' bag. It's not as if every new spec suddenly made the previous one irrelevant. Chrono's get to do double skills and even rewind time. That doesn't become less relevant now that we have Mirages. Soulbeasts can merge with their pets. That hasn't become less relevant now that we have the Untamed. People play the spec they want to play because of the unique things it does, and that hasn't changed in 11 years. So if they just did a clean sweep, set everything down to a base level again and then made adjustments from there, that might just eliminate the whole power creep problem. Go back to the values we had pre-HoT. Holosmiths will still have their photon forge. Firebrands will still have their tomes. It would just scale everything back to a, presumably, more balanced state.

[Degs.5148]

They'll make GW3 before rebalancing all stats

[Obtena.7952]

Imagine a world where you have a choice to play any game you want ... and you choose to continue to play one that is too easy for you and SOMEHOW, that's not a you problem. Almost like it's the only game that exists that you can play and it must cater to you, regardless of the impact it has to others.   

Ironically, the OP complains that SotO brings power creep for builds to 40K, pretending like we haven't had builds that EVER did over 40K? Someone didn't do their homework .... 🤨

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Obtena.7952