Astral ward mage armor set should absolutely not be grindy

[Ashantara.8731]

On 9/19/2023 at 11:50 PM, InvaGir.9158 said:

But man that set has a big grind I'm a surprised no one talked about it so far

No one... with the exception of everybody. 😄

I'm through with that set, and I even know people crazy enough who have accumulated enough essences for the the whole current legendary armor collection by now.

I understand, however, that people who are not interested in the legendary armor sets but would like to acquire the Astral Ward Mage Armor might not be happy with the (lower) level of grind that it takes.
 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I understand, however, that people who are not interested in the legendary armor sets but would like to acquire the Astral Ward Mage Armor might not be happy with the (lower) level of grind that it takes.
 

This. Most of the people in this thread seem to be treating it as a discussion on the price of open world legendary armour, when this is exactly the core issue: it's been priced as if it was a stage 1 precursor and not as if it's a skin that people might want to have for its own sake. 

For the people making WvW armour comparisons - this ain't the legendary. It's the equivalent of Triumphant armour, or at most it's the equivalent of exotic Triumphant Hero's. But it costs a gift of trophies, fifty ectoplasm, five hundred research notes, and a mystic clover per piece, before we even consider the SotO-specific resources.

[draxynnic.3719]

Let's actually do some maths here:

Research notes are 92c per note according to current fast farming data, so 500 research notes is approximately 4.6g worth.

Ectoplasm has a current buy price of 24.39s each according to the wiki, so fifty of those is 12.195g worth.

A mystic clover, if you take the guaranteed conversion, will normally cost 2 ecto, 2 mystic coins, 2 spirit shards, and some currency. I'm going to ignore the spirit shards and currency - while theoretically you can convert them into gold, that's probably only really profitable because it's awkward enough that most people don't bother. Mystic coins have a buy price of 1.1904g according to the wiki, so the mystic clover is worth at least 2.8686g.

So each piece has a baseline cost of 19.6636g, before the gifts, essence, or stardust, for a total of 117.9816g

Now, the gifts:

Gift of Fangs, at wiki buy prices, will cost (50*0.0618)+(50*0.076)+(100*0.1205)+(250*0.0041) = 19.9650

Gift of Dust, at wiki buy prices, will cost (50*0.0661)+(50*0.0616)+(100*0.1415)+(250*0.0124) = 23.6350

Gift of Scales, at wiki buy prices, will cost (50*0.0433)+(50*0.0402)+(100*0.2198)+(250*0.0058) = 27.6050

Gift of Venom, at wiki buy prices, will cost (50*0.0448)+(50*0.0409)+(100*0.2027)+(250*0.0041) = 25.5800

Gift of Bones, at wiki buy prices, will cost (50*0.0851)+(50*0.0613)+(100*0.199)+(250*0.0057) = 28.6450

Gift of Claws, at wiki buy prices, will cost (50*0.0338)+(50*0.0879)+(100*0.219)+(250*0.009) = 30.2350

Prices subject to change, but probably not likely to change by more than about 20% in the foreseeable future.

Added up, this gives a price tag of 273.6466g for the full set.

Which, to be fair, is cheaper than gemstore armour (which will cost more than that for two pieces), but again, we've ignored everything that could not be directly purchased from the trading post. Time spent on rifts is time not spent on other activities that might be more lucrative in gold terms, and more varied and therefore more fun to do.

Addendum: As a better point of comparison, the aforementioned triumphant hero's is 250 bananas per piece, with a banana currently costing roughly 11s, so that works out to about 27.5g per piece, or 165g for a full set. There's also the tickets, of course, but I'd consider them to be the equivalent of the essences and stardust needed for the Astral Ward armour.

Edited September 21, 2023 by draxynnic.3719
Added addendum.

[Das Boot.9627]

my only problem with the rifts is the craft value of the T2 and T3, 8g for a t3 is a bit expensive, now the rift system is an interesting thing, considering the time it takes to make the armor for other content, for For example, in Raid it takes at least 6 weeks, knowing how to do all the bosses, and in WvW it takes 6 months to get the Diamond chest, for those in a hurry, rift is an option.

[Sobx.1758]

40 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Let's actually do some maths here:

Research notes are 92c per note according to current fast farming data, so 500 research notes is approximately 4.6g worth.

Ectoplasm has a current buy price of 24.39s each according to the wiki, so fifty of those is 12.195g worth.

A mystic clover, if you take the guaranteed conversion, will normally cost 2 ecto, 2 mystic coins, 2 spirit shards, and some currency. I'm going to ignore the spirit shards and currency - while theoretically you can convert them into gold, that's probably only really profitable because it's awkward enough that most people don't bother. Mystic coins have a buy price of 1.1904g according to the wiki, so the mystic clover is worth at least 2.8686g.

So each piece has a baseline cost of 19.6636g, before the gifts, essence, or stardust, for a total of 117.9816g

Now, the gifts:

Gift of Fangs, at wiki buy prices, will cost (50*0.0618)+(50*0.076)+(100*0.1205)+(250*0.0041) = 19.9650

Gift of Dust, at wiki buy prices, will cost (50*0.0661)+(50*0.0616)+(100*0.1415)+(250*0.0124) = 23.6350

Gift of Scales, at wiki buy prices, will cost (50*0.0433)+(50*0.0402)+(100*0.2198)+(250*0.0058) = 27.6050

Gift of Venom, at wiki buy prices, will cost (50*0.0448)+(50*0.0409)+(100*0.2027)+(250*0.0041) = 25.5800

Gift of Bones, at wiki buy prices, will cost (50*0.0851)+(50*0.0613)+(100*0.199)+(250*0.0057) = 28.6450

Gift of Claws, at wiki buy prices, will cost (50*0.0338)+(50*0.0879)+(100*0.219)+(250*0.009) = 30.2350

Prices subject to change, but probably not likely to change by more than about 20% in the foreseeable future.

Added up, this gives a price tag of 273.6466g for the full set.

Which, to be fair, is cheaper than gemstore armour (which will cost more than that for two pieces), but again, we've ignored everything that could not be directly purchased from the trading post. Time spent on rifts is time not spent on other activities that might be more lucrative in gold terms, and more varied and therefore more fun to do.

Addendum: As a better point of comparison, the aforementioned triumphant hero's is 250 bananas per piece, with a banana currently costing roughly 11s, so that works out to about 27.5g per piece, or 165g for a full set. There's also the tickets, of course, but I'd consider them to be the equivalent of the essences and stardust needed for the Astral Ward armour.

And all of that is attempting to make what point excatly? (this isn't a rhetorical question) That skins can't/shouldn't be pricy? But this is not the first time we get pricy skins through content, even if we forget about mentioned by you gemstore items. You have plenty of time to get them, not sure what's the rush here.
To make it clear, part of the reason why I don't see that as an issue is because we only get a limited number of skins that are this pricy. Most aren't.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[IndigoSundown.5419]

4 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I wonder what people thought it would be when they cried for Openworld Legy armor? 

Do Jps? 

 

World boss train.

[draxynnic.3719]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And all of that is attempting to make what point excatly? (this isn't a rhetorical question) That skins can't/shouldn't be pricy? But this is not the first time we get pricy skins through content, even if we forget about mentioned by you gemstore items. You have plenty of time to get them, not sure what's the rush here.

Part of the point is establishing what the price actually is. Which allows people to make their own assessments, including by comparing with other exotic sets. A comparison in which I think it does come our substantially more expensive than other exotic sets obtained through gameplay at an average of roughly 45g per piece.

There is no rush, to be sure, but on the other hand, over time there will also be more things to go after.

[Sobx.1758]

39 minutes ago, Das Boot.9627 said:

my only problem with the rifts is the craft value of the T2 and T3, 8g for a t3 is a bit expensive

t3 motivation craft cost isn't 8g though. You're talking about sell price -and it's not even the current sell price (which is 6,2g), it was the typical "I want it now" release sell price.

 

6 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Part of the point is establishing what the price actually is. 

Ok, in that case, point well made.

6 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Which allows people to make their own assessments, including by comparing with other exotic sets. A comparison in which I think it does come our substantially more expensive than other exotic sets obtained through gameplay at an average of roughly 45g per piece.

There is no rush, to be sure, but on the other hand, over time there will also be more things to go after.

But I don't exactly think "getting exotic set/s" is the correct way of looking at it. If someone wants exotic gear, there are better options to do it -and those players can simply use those ways. What we're looking at here isn't exactly "exotic item", it's the unique skin it has.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[draxynnic.3719]

9 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

But I don't exactly think "getting exotic set/s" is the correct way of looking at it. If someone wants exotic gear, there are better options to do it -and those players can simply use those ways. What we're looking at here isn't exactly "exotic item", it's the unique skin it has.

True, but the exotic quality does mean you're getting it purely for the skin, it's not justified by being ascended quality. And when the expansion only has two sets initially available, I think it's reasonable to expect them to be a little more affordable, especially when the demonic set is also likely to be priced as being part of the legendary journey. 

Which is the heart of the problem - I really doubt it would be costing gifts and mystic clovers if they hadn't made unlocking it part of the legendary journey. As is... it's a nice skin, but unless I really decide obsidian is a must-have purely for the skin, astral is probably always going to be an 'only if I have nothing better to go for' item. The opportunity cost is most of the trophies, all of the research notes, and a sixth of the mystic clovers of a gen 3 legendary weapon, for instance.

[Gibson.4036]

For what it's worth, as a casual player, I got my last two pieces of Astral Ward Armor last night. So 4 weeks.

It was probably the second week before I started doing the Incursion weekly achievements. I haven't really done any rift farming, apart from what was required in the story, weeklies, and occasionally scooting over to a T3 orT2 announced in chat. I've done both metas a handful of times.

I do consider myself a casual player, but I have been playing this game for a long time. So I benefited from having the crafting level to refine the essences and a stockpile of trophies and ecto. Said stockpile also helped in making things to research.

Which is all to say the cost in trophies, ectos, and clovers is pretty crazy if all you want is a unique look and 6 exotic armor pieces. But the essences, stardust and lightning are easily attainable.

_________

Also, do we know for certain if we'll need those 6 exotic pieces in the crafting of the legendary or not? It'd be great not to take up the storage slots waiting to find out.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[QueenKeriti.5176]

10 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

WvW set says hello.

WvW set says: You have to spend a minimum of 15+ hours maintaining T6 participation per week, and you have a cap on how much "rift currency" you can get per week (iirc, 455/week including the weekly achievements, outside of any lucky drops from keeps). And then you're looking at a minimum of 18 weeks for the basic legendary set (looks the exact same as the ascended version) or 24 weeks for the rank 500 legendary set (the one that has sparkles). And, no matter what you do, there is no way to speed that farm up. It's a hard-walled timegate of 18+ weeks. And then Lyssa aid you if you're up against Maguuma because you aren't going to be leaving your spawn.

So, yeah, making OW work at 16+ hours a week for over 18 weeks would kind of track, wouldn't it?

Or you can git gud and do PvE raids for <6 hours a week for 6 weeks for the first set and then like 12 for each set afterward.

 

[Gibson.4036]

I'm noting that we have two more complete sets of skins we'll need to get in the future as well. No idea whether they will be like Rift Hunter, or more like Astral Ward. Maybe one more of each?

[Astralporing.1957]

24 minutes ago, QueenKeriti.5176 said:

So, yeah, making OW work at 16+ hours a week for over 18 weeks would kind of track, wouldn't it?

It's around 10 hours at mithril tier, actually. But yeah, 1.5-2 hours per day each day on average while doing any OW content you desire (instead of a single specific one) seems perfectly fine to me.

[QueenKeriti.5176]

16 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's around 10 hours at mithril tier, actually. But yeah, 1.5-2 hours per day each day on average while doing any OW content you desire (instead of a single specific one) seems perfectly fine to me.

I'm Bronze tier, homie.

[Astralporing.1957]

46 minutes ago, QueenKeriti.5176 said:

I'm Bronze tier, homie.

Well, obviously WvW path is for WvWers...

[Gibson.4036]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, obviously WvW path is for WvWers...

Is it though?

Kinda seems like by the time you grind out the higher ranks to get the quick chests, you'll have the stuff to make the armor.

I've always found it weird that WvW rewards hardcore players by allowing them to play it less.

[genjonah.1253]

I kinda agree- don’t get me wrong, I want the legendary open world armor to be an insane grind. I actually think it’s not enough overall, I’m casually working towards it and will likely have enough for a full set the day it released

 

BUT- this particular armor is an insane grind. If someone wants JUST THIS armor, it’s ridiculous- a minor gift, a clover, and more for an exotic? It rubs me the wrong way. Put the exact same effort and put it in a different place as the requirement for the legendary armor? Absolutely, go for it. But looking at this armor IN ISOLATION from the legendary armor it helps unlock? It’s too much 

[Stx.4857]

Why does every armor skin need to be easy to get?  If you are just interested in the astral ward armor for the skins, it won’t take very long to get.  Less than a month surely.  

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Is it though?

Kinda seems like by the time you grind out the higher ranks to get the quick chests, you'll have the stuff to make the armor.

I've always found it weird that WvW rewards hardcore players by allowing them to play it less.

It's not that it rewards veteran WvWers by allowing them to play less. It's that it rewards them by allowing them to get the full rewards. Players that aren't primarily/exclusively WvW focused are not likely to be able to get to diamond reliably - i mean, average gw2 player probably doesn't even play 20 hours per week in total, much less 20 hours dedicated to WvW. And since the skirmish track rewards are heavily backloaded, most of the players that are not WvW veterans will likely be getting maybe a third of skirmish ticket cap per week on average at best.

[Hesione.9412]

28 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's not that it rewards veteran WvWers by allowing them to play less. It's that it rewards them by allowing them to get the full rewards. Players that aren't primarily/exclusively WvW focused are not likely to be able to get to diamond reliably - i mean, average gw2 player probably doesn't even play 20 hours per week in total, much less 20 hours dedicated to WvW. And since the skirmish track rewards are heavily backloaded, most of the players that are not WvW veterans will likely be getting maybe a third of skirmish ticket cap per week on average at best.

Which means you're saying that the WvW armour is a grind. And don't forget that WvW rewards are terrible, so WvW players are less likely to have t6 mats, etc, when compared to a person who plays PvE for the same length of time as the comparison WvWer spends in WvW.

[Linken.6345]

2 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

Which means you're saying that the WvW armour is a grind. And don't forget that WvW rewards are terrible, so WvW players are less likely to have t6 mats, etc, when compared to a person who plays PvE for the same length of time as the comparison WvWer spends in WvW.

Yes but do remember around here in the forum the biggest grind is always open world pve and all they get are worthless.

They should really try to spend some time in wvw to get their facts straight.

[Astralporing.1957]

10 hours ago, Hesione.9412 said:

Which means you're saying that the WvW armour is a grind. And don't forget that WvW rewards are terrible, so WvW players are less likely to have t6 mats, etc, when compared to a person who plays PvE for the same length of time as the comparison WvWer spends in WvW.

For a PvE player, the WvW path is indeed a grind. For a WvW player however it is the day as usual. It's not like they'd have played any differently if not pursuing that armor, after all. And yes, WvW is underrewarding compared to PvE. That is a separate problem, however, and one that probably should be addressed as well. Anet seems to even be aware of that, but any their attempts to do something about it is two steps forward, one step back, and breaking something else in the process, so it changes extremely slowly.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

18 hours ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

World boss train.

True. JPs take atleast some skill. 

 

[Teknomancer.4895]

19 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Also, do we know for certain if we'll need those 6 exotic pieces in the crafting of the legendary or not? It'd be great not to take up the storage slots waiting to find out.

We know what ANet has told us, which is precious little and subject to change without notice.

The wiki says it's "a required part of the path towards the legendary Obsidian armor" so fine, it's a precursor...or at least it's planned to be. But ask yourself this: given their history to date, what reason is there to believe anything ANet says? This is the part that gets me about these legendary gear threads (armor, runes, whatev). It doesn't even exist yet, but people are (for some reason) trusting that ANet has been truthful and forthcoming about what's required, when this release has been nothing but one failure to communicate after another. They're been secretive and obscure about the whole thing, so to speak.

I'm not getting on a deliberately boring hamster wheel and running like mad for the Promise of Future Reward(TM), which is currently all this amounts to. Yes, the exotic set exists now and it's not a bad skin on its own, but without knowing what the end-result legendary is, I refuse to grind for a mere exotic set with an ascended+ price tag just because it's allegedly the precursor for an as-yet-nonexistent legendary reward.

Until it's actually released as part of the live game, it's nothing more than vaporware.

[Hesione.9412]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

For a PvE player, the WvW path is indeed a grind. For a WvW player however it is the day as usual. It's not like they'd have played any differently if not pursuing that armor, after all. And yes, WvW is underrewarding compared to PvE. That is a separate problem, however, and one that probably should be addressed as well. Anet seems to even be aware of that, but any their attempts to do something about it is two steps forward, one step back, and breaking something else in the process, so it changes extremely slowly.

You appear to have missed all the comments in the forums over time about WvW players grinding out skirmish tickets to get their legendaries. Skirmish tickets have a weekly cap and are back loaded. There is no weekly cap to the number of rifts a PvE player can do.