Remove Weaponmaster Training

[Suyheuti.1732]

On 9/29/2023 at 4:02 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

You can make whatever logical arguments you want for or against whatever systems Anet is going to make but ...

.. the reality is that there are practical considerations that FAR outweigh any of those and have I no doubt that weapon Mastery isn't going to be removed because it wasn't a frivolous consideration to put it in the game in the first place. Resources, time and money have been put into adding it. Anet will do whatever to make it work, including whatever balancing measures they need to take to do so (which I have no  doubt they considered they would have to do ANYWAYS as part of the decision to add it). 

Balance is a mess in part because of this addition? Sure ... but that's no reason to remove it because frankly, balance didn't meet some high standard BEFORE it was introduced either. 

All we know weapon mastery is not going to removed from the game. Our fury is not coming from Weapon Mastery. It is coming from they are continuosly making bad decisions about balance. 

Anet put Weapon Mastery as a feature for the expansion, because they needed to put something huge to sell. The problem is they dont think consequences about it. Tuesday's balance patch should have been released in 1 week max after soto was released. They had 1 month to do something useful. 

Do you remember balance phisolophy of anet balance team? They said they would not follow benchmarks. In the end, all we saw, benchmark matters. Because there is no another way to nerf Condi Berserker. They nerfed it because CostaPrimo benched 46+, with aura share 50k+. Tell me how many condi berserker you have seen in the game since the banners were nerfed? Noone was complaining about condi berserker was dealing too much damage. Even that was one of the top DPS in game, in the end, it wasnt in SC's recommended builds. Everyone knows archieving that damage in real scenario is impossible with that build. But they chose to nerf it anyway. Yes, many people complained about scourge, condi virtuoso (it should have been nerfed to 4s, not 4,5 btw) 

Another issue is mesmer commutity were asking to fix mirage bugs. Couple months ago, mirage had torment bug and it was dealing couple k dps more. Anet fixed that bug in 2 days. Just because players got benefit from bug. But the unfixed bugs were making mirage playes miserable over years. Anet ignores those bugs. Mirage can maybe deal good DPS now, but it is full melee, hard to play and it has bugs. Last week I saw, according to wingman logs, mirage was the least played espec in every instanced content in the game (Fractals, Raids and Strikes). 

To be honest, as soon as I saw patch notes, I saw elementalist changes tab first and I wanted to break my laptop with hammer without checking another. Nerfing weaver and catalyst traits call was brutal. Elementalist is not easy spec to archieve high dpses without efford. Some people can argue with me but hammer catalyst is hardest spec to play for me. It has rampup time unlike the other power specs, it is full melee and fighting with moving targets is nightmare. That spec should have been the top benchmark in the game imo. Just because xchris and couple players like him are able to high dps with that spec shouldnt be baseline of the balance. Thanks to arenanet balance team, hammer is useless weapon now. 

We liked versality of the game. I played for that reason, I was enjoying playing with that reason. Now I'm not enjoying. Anet simplified every class with that change and bad balance calls. 

[SolarDragon.7063]

It's definitely not worth it on the whole. There are a few specs that had interesting results from it -healscrapper getting mace instead of the stupidity of pistol being an example- but most of those could have been fixed other ways, and it's created a worse result than before.
And it's just going to get worse with the new weapons.

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Suyheuti.1732 said:

All we know weapon mastery is not going to removed from the game. Our fury is not coming from Weapon Mastery. It is coming from they are continuosly making bad decisions about balance. 

Better get used to it ... it's not like there was some golden age of balance in this game and we just want to return to it. If any, the BEST balance we EVER had was Spring '23

Edited September 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[DeceiverX.8361]

11 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Better get used to it ... it's not like there was some golden age of balance in this game and we just want to return to it. If any, the BEST balance we EVER had was Spring '23

Maybe exclusively for the top end of PvE Raids, but the Specializations patch before HoT was the peak game-wide.  By a significant margin.

Reality is weaponmaster is probably the best idea ANet's had in a long time.  All it's doing is adding more weapons and exposing ALL the problems to the audience that largely has been ignorant of them.

The real problem that people don't seem to understand is people are now JUST realizing how absolutely overpowered and totally bloated most of the elite spec mechanics are in a vacuum, be it weapon skills or trait lines themselves.

The people complaining now who were lauding the powercreep are just now repeating the sentiment those of us from core game were saying years ago.

And I'm honestly here for it either way.  Either ANet gets its act together, or everyone reaps what they sow.

Edited October 1, 2023 by DeceiverX.8361

[SparklingMalibu.6328]

My problem with weaponmaster training is that they NERFED the weapons and specs just so we could equip them.

Like I am not excited for using a hammer on weaver when they nerfed weaver or nerfed mace to the ground on engineer ( so how can I be excited to use it on holosmith? )

makes zero sense

Edited October 2, 2023 by SparklingMalibu.6328

[Zacchary.6183]

This entire thread sounds like "Delete weaponmaster training because I don't have it."

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

21 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

This entire thread sounds like "Delete weaponmaster training because I don't have it."

You must be deaf then because Weaponmaster training has brought Nothing but trouble lmao

Edited October 5, 2023 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267

[Gaiawolf.8261]

10 minutes ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

You must be deaf then because Weaponmaster training has brought Nothing but trouble lmao

Trouble for whomever is at the pointy the end of my longbow arrow, you mean. 😉

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

22 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Trouble for whomever is at the pointy the end of my longbow arrow, you mean. 😉

Hey if you want to sacrifice the game's sense of balance for your own selfish gain, more power too you.

 

But for everyone else who has enough sense, are slowly realizing the red flags Weaponmaster is bringing into the table. If the fact that nearly every class can hit over 40k dps now.

Long term, weapon master is going to cause so much unhealthy balance. Just to cater to folks like you lmao.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267

[Peregrine Falcon.5496]

Why would you even start a thread asking the developers to remove something when you know it'll never happen?

Secrets of the Obscure was sold as an expansion and weaponmaster training was listed as a specific feature of that paid expansion. Do you really think they're just going to up and remove that feature because some random person they don't know made a thread on their forum about it?

You might as well just go ahead and ask them to remove Ascended Armor from the game. Why not? Since you're asking for things that'll never happen. I know, why don't you ask them to remove Griffons from the game since we all have Skyscales now?

[Gaiawolf.8261]

24 minutes ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Hey if you want to sacrifice the game's sense of balance for your own selfish gain, more power too you.

 

But for everyone else who has enough sense, are slowly realizing the red flags Weaponmaster is bringing into the table. If the fact that nearly every class can hit over 40k dps now.

Long term, weapon master is going to cause so much unhealthy balance. Just to cater to folks like you lmao.

Calm down. We all knew there was going to be some balance issues to iron out in the first several months. They just started doing that. 

It's not the disaster nor the critical triumph people are spouting. There seems to be no middle ground on this form.... 🤔 ohhh.... Right, internet. My mistake. Carry on. 

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

10 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Calm down. We all knew there was going to be some balance issues to iron out in the first several months. They just started doing that

Oh trust me I am calm. But I also take the issue seriously. And I don't you or Anet understand the scale of how much of a uphill battle the balance team has to face now.

 

The very moment Anet added Weaponmaster training to the game, Anet has effectively made their job that much harder to balance. They have too much variables now, and whenever they start to nerf stuff, they can't do it without indirectly nerfing other aspect of that variables.

 

That's exactly what happened with the lastest patch. They effectively nerfed all the synergy that made problematic weapons powerful, while Indirectly nerfing weapons and skills that didn't even deserve it.

You have to keep in mind that the elite weapons were never meant for use for core or other specialization. It's not something the dev should be retroactively balance. You need foresight to make that large of a balance decisions and quite frankly the balance team is incapable of it, because now every class in the game can hit around 40k plus dps.

 

And even if the balance team does manages to stabilize everything, You still have to consider the fact that Anet intend to add new stuff to combat every expansion, alongside the the new weapons we're supposed to be getting at one point.

 

It's not realistic to balance things while they add more variables into the mix because at one point They're going to implode the whole balance.

 

Like I said. The negative will show long term. Because this very much a long term thing.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

54 minutes ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

The very moment Anet added Weaponmaster training to the game, Anet has effectively made their job that much harder to balance. They have too much variables now, and whenever they start to nerf stuff, they can't do it without indirectly nerfing other aspect of that variables.

Actually they leveled the variables. Instead of balancing especs on a triple axle (unique profession mechanics, traits, exclusive weapon), they took the weapon out of that equation and lumped it in with every other weapon. The weapons can all be balanced against each other equally now, and the especs only have two axles to balance against each other. Sure it will be a struggle to bring them in line initially, but that's nothing new when introducing or reworking features in expansions for games.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Actually they leveled the variables. Instead of balancing especs on a triple axle (unique profession mechanics, traits, exclusive weapon), they took the weapon out of that equation and lumped it in with every other weapon. The weapons can all be balanced against each other equally now, and the especs only have two axles to balance against each other. Sure it will be a struggle to bring them in line initially, but that's nothing new when introducing or reworking features in expansions for games.

What exactly are you trying to tell me? That Anet has less to worry about after they gave elite weapons to core spec? That's not how this works.You're not even considering the fact that other elite specs that originally didn't have certain weapons, are going to synergize those weapon FAR better than the original elite spec. They're not doing what you think they're doing. They're actually homogenizing everything.

And lets not pretend all of this was reworked. Anet is just selling you a key to unlock an otherwise restrictive feature. They gotta sell that expansion anyhow, Balance be damned. And I said it before. They could stabilize it, they very well could. But it won't last when they sell the next biggest thing to drastically change the combat system. Then the cycle repeats itself until we imploded ourselves.

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Hey if you want to sacrifice the game's sense of balance for your own selfish gain, more power too you.

 

But for everyone else who has enough sense, are slowly realizing the red flags Weaponmaster is bringing into the table. If the fact that nearly every class can hit over 40k dps now.

Long term, weapon master is going to cause so much unhealthy balance. Just to cater to folks like you lmao.

I love the doomer take of the demise of a game because of bad balance ... that has rarely even been close to good PVE balance in it's entire history. 

But sure ... Weaponmaster ... THAT'S the finale here. Fun stuff. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

43 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I love the doomer take of the demise of a game because of bad balance ... that has rarely even been close to good PVE balance in it's entire history. 

But sure ... Weaponmaster ... THAT'S the finale here. Fun stuff. 

You know, you could read our discussion and make actual counter arguments before cherry picking my post and gaslighting people for no reason. gaslighting seems to be really popular with you.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

10 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

They're actually homogenizing everything.

Yes, that is exactly what they are doing. They don't have less to worry about; they just moved the pieces into more manageable sections by homogenizing them. That's what homogenization does. It makes the system as a whole easier to balance, because the moving parts are more comparable. It just won't happen overnight.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Opening weapon options is not a homogenization procedure.

[Jedrik.3109]

11 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

You know, you could read our discussion and make actual counter arguments before cherry picking my post and gaslighting people for no reason. gaslighting seems to be really popular with you.

I don't believe you know what gaslighting means.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

3 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Yes, that is exactly what they are doing. They don't have less to worry about; they just moved the pieces into more manageable sections by homogenizing them. That's what homogenization does. It makes the system as a whole easier to balance, because the moving parts are more comparable. It just won't happen overnight.

But how is it more manageable, when these weapons are now able to synergize with other elite spec, That's what weaponmaster training does as well. It create more synergy, more variables for the balance team to consider.

I have never seen homogenization bring balance in any game. You stagnate the combat system at best, or make other options a more superior option than others at worse. I know better because I've seen this happen in Elder scrolls online. In their path to create diversity and homogenized balance, They have consistently create  problematic patches that caused dps to be massively overtuned, and make certain builds in pvp outright broken, Because they kept adding variables into the mix. You could never compete with anyone those added things.

So they would constantly start nerfing damage across the board because they don't know how to stop the mess they they keep creating for themselves, and that lead up to game update 35, where people got sick and tired of the constant nerfs, and caused a mass exodus. Ask any Eso vetren about Update 35 and they will tell you the why update 35 is a very infamous patch.

I don't see how homogenizing Gw2 will bring about better balance. The balance team is struggling to balance their game even before weaponmaster came into the picture.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

24 minutes ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

But how is it more manageable, when these weapons are now able to synergize with other elite spec, That's what weaponmaster training does as well. It create more synergy, more variables for the balance team to consider.

Because the weapons will now have to be balanced like every other weapon in the game, instead of an extra piece of the more convoluted espec puzzle. Removing weapons from the espec package makes the especs easier to balance against each other, since there are less pieces strictly associated with them. If a weapon overperforms, it usually gets nerfed. If a weapon underperforms, professions usually have another you can use instead. If an espec over or underperformed, it was often a bigger, more complex problem. Now, a bit less so. Maybe. Hopefully.

Mind you, I don't have any concrete evidence this will be the case, but neither does anyone else know how it will pan out either. I'm just not ranting out of my kitten, one way or the other. I'm keeping my expectations moderate and my mind open for how it changes. People love to doomsay on this forum, and the internet in general, but the reality is that the game is still fun to play, and I suspect this will continue. I don't see any insurmountable hurdles in the game's future from opening up a few weapons and putting them into a more generic formula that they've been using since 2012. They may be special now, but these weapons will fall in line with the rest in time.

[LadyKitty.6120]

Kitty personally finds the weapon mastery thing good from balance perspective. Previously weak spec meant that they would've needed to buff the spec as whole or buff its elite spec weapon or if the spec had a strong e-spec weapon, they had to either nerf it to same level as other weapons or nerf the spec. (and they did quite many times take the poorer path)

Now that the weaponmastery is a thing, they can level the weapons to more-or-less the same level based on combination of their damage output, mobility, support features and crowd control etc. and then they just need to balance the specs and traits based on their role, performance and raw numbers.

At the end, if they do the things right (one can hope but pessimist rarely gets disappointed) and balance all the weapons properly while getting specs balanced between themselves, the amount of "viable" build options will increase exponentionally compared to current state of the game. Though it will probably take a while as there's some weapons they just haven't touched in ages. (warrior's and guardian's maces, mesmer scepter, thief's pistol dual wields...)

[MarzAttakz.9608]

They couldn't unkitten tangled spaghetti before Soto, what makes you think they're capable of unkittening a bigger mess of tangled spag now?

Sorry my confidence in their ability has left the building.

Regarding actually releasing Weapon Mastery as an expansion feature: it's the least amount of work they could possibly do. Remove the coding restrictions, make a few internal adjustments as required. Done! kitten balance, kitten QA, kitten yeah! Chest thump much?

After 11 years of their nonsense, I'm finally done supporting them.

[Zacchary.6183]

On 10/5/2023 at 4:07 PM, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

You must be deaf then because Weaponmaster training has brought Nothing but trouble lmao

For who? Get SotO and enjoy it yourself.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

3 hours ago, MarzAttakz.9608 said:

They couldn't unkitten tangled spaghetti before Soto, what makes you think they're capable of unkittening a bigger mess of tangled spag now?

Sorry my confidence in their ability has left the building.

Regarding actually releasing Weapon Mastery as an expansion feature: it's the least amount of work they could possibly do. Remove the coding restrictions, make a few internal adjustments as required. Done! kitten balance, kitten QA, kitten yeah! Chest thump much?

After 11 years of their nonsense, I'm finally done supporting them.

Someone in this conversation who actually gets it. It's easy to smoke the Hopium and think Weapon mastery will bring about great things, but they're ignoring the fact that we have had pretty bad balance patches thought these years. The false hope is something this game does not need, and you shouldn't be branded as a "Doomer" For bringing reality to the situation. Like you said, this make the spagetti code that much more tangled, and the potential to damage future balance is that much higher.

But as this figure has said.

 

30 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Get SotO and enjoy it yourself.

Aka, Just consume like a good mindless little costumer. Stop thinking about the problem, and pretend they don't exist.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267