FINALLY THE GAME IS BALANCE

[Sahne.6950]

14 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38bhiR7fRY4

"Poor Desighn an Balance hiccups **AGAIN** [GW2]"

 

Sir...

This is not the "hitting a golem" subforum.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i know your right with what your saying.

Its the PERFECT solution kind of....    but at the same time, Czerkers will just switch to another relic and call it a day.  

And you know that XD

I don't think that they will. They could still F1->BR->F1 and have the spike back loaded rather than front loaded, but that gives more counterplay opportunity to the spike.

[vilesoldier.9826]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

but that gives more counterplay opportunity to the spike.

 

Which is exactly why they would switch. Meta bandwagoners willingly accepting counterplay in their build? Imagine

[MalekithDG.6124]

23 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

The fact that people think because they nerfed OWP that Ranger is balanced now 😄

🐑

Brother. Please. Everytime Ranger class is under attack in forums you rush to its defense but then you nominate it everytime for "still broken". Im inclined to believe you are some sort of masochist now lol.

Let the class be forgotten please. We cant tank any more nerfs.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

13 minutes ago, MalekithDG.6124 said:

Brother. Please. Everytime Ranger class is under attack in forums you rush to its defense but then you nominate it everytime for "still broken". Im inclined to believe you are some sort of masochist now lol.

Let the class be forgotten please. We cant tank any more nerfs.

That's called wanting it balanced lol.  

Never said ranger is still broken though, only that I wish they'd stop hitting random burst skills and fix pet responsiveness.  

[MalekithDG.6124]

29 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

That's called wanting it balanced lol.  

Never said ranger is still broken though, only that I wish they'd stop hitting random burst skills and fix pet responsiveness.  

Wanting it balanced is such a pure of heart act man. Anet havent touched willbender since its released for example (in wvw), those guys are as jolly as ever and they all downplay the class, check their forums. If I knew they would be reworking/buffing/balancing (whatever you want to call it) the other aspects of the ranger be it unused weapons, especs, pets etc. I would be rushing headlong for nerfing Soulbeast and whatever is overperforming.

You know full well ranger is ANET's scapegoat and never had in its mind "balancing the game" or working on ranger for betterment of the class. We seriously cant tank any more nerfs because we arent getting compensated.

Fixing the pets? Oh man, we are both rangers, you and me, and I am sure you know thats never going to happen. Untamed exists to fix that problem man under the marketing of "giving players more control over pets", in reality they know they wont be fixing that mechanic ever.

Edited September 28, 2023 by MalekithDG.6124

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

40 minutes ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

 

Which is exactly why they would switch. Meta bandwagoners willingly accepting counterplay in their build? Imagine

When the first part dazes the target? Nah, it would get used still.

[JTGuevara.9018]

Balanced. That's the word you're looking for...(walks away)...

[Axl.8924]

18 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

So, I studied this particular topic (Biology, Complex Systems, and fundemental physics) for 4 years (10 years total) and i just wanna shed a little light on it...cause here's the thing...

Both you and the person you replied to (Axl) are correct on what you guys said.

Nature is balanced. But it's balanced by a vastly more elegant mechanism that humans have not yet fully understood. It took me a very long time to first identify that mechanism to begin with, and then another very long period of time to truly grasp just how elegant that mechanism was.

Typically, how most people understand "human" balance, is to make two things that are not equal, to be equal. We understand this kind of logic, from looking at a balance scale...or balancing an equation. But you can ask qualitative questions about this way of looking at it that leads to surprising conclusions about what these operations (making things equal) actually does. For instance, if everything was equal, then how come we live in a world of tremendous diversity?...other side of the coin...if everything was not equal, then how can anything be balanced at all? How is it that nature is able to achieve both of these properties : tremendous diversity, and that this diversity exists in such a way where it is balanced so neatly. 

It turns out that "making things equal" is not the right way to look at the problem, and the probe is much...much deeper. in probing this topic, you find that, what nature does...how it achieves this ability to be both diverse and balanced, is that it is instantiating the existence of all possible things. With regards to evolution...evolution is the process we observe, in the instantiation of all possible life forms. Deeper then that, the fundamental physics of the world, is the instantiation of all forms (geometries). Some of those forms, happen to be life forms, but life is just a form, among many...like rocks, clouds, asteroids, stars and so on.

You understand that this is a true fact of the world even intuitively; you have the elementary particles...which are then permuted with each other to yield the table of elements, which are again permuted with each other to give you the very long list of possible molecules...molecules are then permuted to form all possible permutations of cells (or other forms like crystals or gases)...and cells permute themselves into larger macro organisms and so on...

The reason balance comes about through this mechanism of instantiation, is that in the space of all possible forms...there will be other forms (counters if you will) that will exist to oppose it. In fact, in the space of all possible forms, these forms don't necessarily need to "counter" each other all of the time...they simple exist in complex relationships. some relationships are mutual, some are exclusive, some are counter, some are dualistic and so on.

It goes like this:

If you have 1 build that is incredibly strong...in the space of 100 possible builds, you are likely to find only maybe 1 build that will exist to counter this incredibly strong build.

If you have 1 build that is incredibly strong, in the space of 10,000,000 (10 million) possible builds...you are likely find 100,000 builds out in the space of possible builds that can exist to counter it.

So as the number of "things that exists" grows, outliers will tend towards a higher likelihood, of have something out there that will exist to equalize it...and this simple fact of "lots of things existing" is a balancing mechanism...so, this makes "removals" counter to the balancing mechanism that nature's goal is oriented toward. You can ask the question that if removals was it's purpose, then nothing should exist at all... so existence itself is the proof of nature's true intention. Mathematically, you also find this to be the case, and that shouldn't surprise you under the logic.

You can make similiar statements about "equalization" as well...which is that if natures goal was to equalize or homogenize everything, then why do we exist in a world of massive diversity, and not just a uniform ocean of nothingness. This is a more complex thing to talk about, but it's for a similiar reason : equalization/homogenization is not nature's true goal. Skipping details: homogenization and diversity are one in the same construct (they are deeply unified), under this mechanism of instantiating all possible things.

TLDR: So anyway I came here to say, that both of you guys are correct, and providing the right lens as to why. Nature is "unbalanced" in the way we humans typically understood balance (equalization) but equalization is not the only balancing mechanism to exist, and not the balancing mechanism of nature. Nature uses a way more elegant mechanism, (the instantiation of all possible forms)...and unfortunately there exists no proper language to address this balancing mechanism. If you want to learn more about this on your own, study Complex Systems, and watching this book series: New Kind of Science, by Stephan Wolfram, who is largely responsible for unifying complex systems. In that book he goes over the nature of homogeneity, heterogeneity, complexity, natural and computational systems...all that good stuff, and then goes through how they are deeply related to each other. You will find the end of the book very surprising as did I if you are actually interested in this kind of thing.

 

Or creatures keep evolving to be able to counters to the counters of their predators and adapt to survive and not be eaten.

IE mesmers getting a build that works to not get murdered by thieves necros getting something so they aren't always camped by rangers but now they have to give up something and be vulnerable to something.ETC ETC.

 

Speaking of adaptation and building, let me ask you a question:

How do you create a balance game when you have so many classes which over the years have been given everything and having many things already kinda samey?

Every class is getting access to invulns spam of aegis which didn't exist in the past quickness and alac.Necro never had quickness or alac in the past, that was only a couple classes now even necro has it.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Axl.8924

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

Or creatures keep evolving to be able to counters to the counters of their predators and adapt to survive and not be eaten.

 

Evolution is not an actual physical change in a thing, It’s the byproduct of selection processes which is a purely statistical force.

If you have a set of 100 animals that live in a desert, and 90 of them die, the remaining 10 that lived have some attribute that allowed them to live…say that attribute was not having fur…then the next generation of animals will be offspring of the 10 animals that survived and will have no fur….leading to less of those animals dying in the desert in that new generation.

Nothing actually physically changes in the animals that survived, we simply get to see what had survived as a result of a selection process: an abstract voting system among the agents with random traits settling to a state where the agents have the same traits. 

The statistical forces that drives evolution (the process we observe as selection) is not magic. It just the observation of a system that is doing something complicated. This complexity comes from the instantiation of all possible forms…in the example above the desert is a set of forms (rocks…heat from the sun, which is just molecules moving around faster…less water molecules around and the list goes on as to what those forms are) along with the 100 animal agents…creatures having or not having fur. Remember that evolution is not just about the animals, it is the interplay with the environments with which they exist.

Edited September 28, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

10 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

Speaking of adaptation and building, let me ask you a question:

How do you create a balance game when you have so many classes which over the years have been given everything and having many things already kinda samey?

Every class is getting access to invulns spam of aegis which didn't exist in the past quickness and alac.Necro never had quickness or alac in the past, that was only a couple classes now even necro has it.

Let me also answer this question. To be honest, the true scope to answer this, which i've been typing for a while now...is much much too deep to have a conversation on...and that if you do want to have a serious conversation about it, you need to be...mentally prepared for that. It is a deep rabbit hole, and this shouldn't surprise anyone...because what we are talking about is the way that nature works. how nature works is like alluded to earlier, operating on such a...profound mechanism, and it requires build up to understand why that mechanism exists, and why it is the way nature works and not some other way.

So as a courtesy, I'll keep this as...intuitive and hopefully as short as I can...and related to guild wars 2. if you want to know further about why the two things below are the answer to this question, then you'd have to ask explicitly with that preparation in mind.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's 2 fundamental properties that you need, and these are universal properties for any system, even computational ones, if you wish to replicate biological systems in nature:

1) Permutation (allowing the elements of the system to permute themselves)

2) Undecidability (that the rules with which the system is following, is formally undecidable.) 

Notice how I didn't say uniqueness here. Uniqueness, as much as I thought that it was a fundamental property a while back... is not a necessarily a fundamental constraint to have a diverse system. However I do believe that uniqueness is derivative of the two properties when put together...rather it arises naturally as a result of permutation no matter what the underlying properties of the components are. For instance, a computer, operates on these same principles... permuting 0's and 1's to construct all possible computer programs. you'd argue that these are not a highly diverse set of constituents. When permuted however, these rather homogenous constituents construct themselves into diverse constituents. 0011100111 is unique and so is 1101100010...and so on and all together just permutation alone allows the construction of 2^10 (1024) possible unique configurations to exist in this system. In fact...this is how it's possible to play guild wars 2 on a computer...at base level its just a stream of 0's and 1's. The same would not be true, if it's fundamental constituent was only 0. So it's  important to understand this strange relationship between sameness, and diversity being very close together...and that the reason they are this way is because they are duel aspects of the same underlying construct that unifies them together.

Undecidability, and Permutability, is just a more formal way to describe the function of the unifying mechanism: These are the two keys you need to instantiate the world of all possible forms, for a system of any size. And with the instantiation of all possible forms (more formally, the construction of a Turing universal machine) you will naturally emerge the rest of the properties with which one would exhibit in a natural system, diversity, balance, and other neat things if you are interested in other kinds of systems, and not just guild wars 2. You can ask how hard is it to attain "undecidability," hence the reason for referencing Wolfram's research earlier. He proved in that book that undecidability, is ubiquitous, and that even systems running on the simplest rules, are Turing universal. 

With respect to Guild Wars 2, this simply boils down into making mechanics interesting/unsolvable/complex  + and the ability for those mechanics to interact with each other. When I say "complex" I don't mean to say that each mechanic needs to be described by a 100 page essay for a tooltip. The point is that Wolfram proved that complexity is easily attainable with even the most simple of rules...and we understand this when we see mechanics that are simple, but yield endlessly novel behavior (conquest PVP for example, is endlessly novel even though the rules of the game can be described in about a single sentence.) 

When these two properties are present, the system undergoes a computation and evolves over time. This evolution is what we perceive as "diversity" which is the constant flux between the different forms that emerge as a result of that system undergoing a computation. Permutability determines how many forms can exist, and Undecidability, guarantees the system will evolve through these forms forever. More abstractly, undecidability results in effective models of the finite system, which means that there really is no limit to the number of forms that can occur no matter what the permutation size of the space is. This is not an obvious fact...but it stems from the notion that, these systems, like the game, do not exist in isolation. us humans, are connected to the playing of this game, and connected to the rest of the causal universe and so the output state of the game can technically take on any conceivable behavior based on the input coming in (from the player, or any finite system that interacts with the input of the game) For all practical purposes, we assume that we don't care about those more abstract properties (that guild wars 2 game could at any moment produce code that resembles say the behavior of a fluid). But understand that it is this same abstract property that allows the game to evolve in accordance with behaviors that we impose onto it. 

An example of what that means...is that if we weren't humans, but some kind of alien, that played this game, these aliens would have an entirely different sense for what the playing of the game even means. For instance, our ability to do things in the game, is based on our brain and how we interpret information through our 5 senses. We tend to press keys one at a time or a couple at a time at most from moment to moment. But these aliens might press all their keys at the same time...or rather than playing the game through sight, play the game through sound. It could be that aliens have a totally different perception of time...or movement, happening in little increments. Collectively, the behavior of the playing of this game, by these hypothetical aliens might be so foreign to us, that it could take on properties that we might perceive to as being like a fluid, or some other kind of strange computation.

This journal, by Wolfram, called "Cat in a Party Hat" is a really good read and example for what I'm talking about here. About how strange things could be, for forms that are not like us...and so the playing of this game in the way we experience it, is intrinsically a human experience.

So let me conclude, You asked this question:

How do you create a balance game when you have so many classes which over the years have been given everything and having many things already kinda samey?

to repeat the answer is "making mechanics interesting/unsolvable/complex  + and the ability for those mechanics to interact with each other." which means...that Arenanet devs simply have to do meaningful work, with operations that matter. for instance, no amount of number changing is going to make a mechanic undecidable and therefor interesting. Both of these fundamental properties are necessary...especially the undecidability part.

It's another story as to how to operationally make undecidable mechanics...me personally I know how to do this because I've spent half a decade making systems. It's not that hard...but it's akin to an artform...you need to have developed an intuition for it. There are some basic tenets you can follow...for instance any equation, where the output is derived from the variable input of player behavior, automatically makes that mechanic undecidable...because the input being a variable derived from a turing machine (a human being), means the output never has a single answer. You also typically want to spread out this variability by placing it on a continuous dimension...spreading it to across a number of user inputs and not just one...like say for example

Relic of Speed

Increase movement speed by 100% when under the effect of swiftness. For each 100 range, you lose 10% damage against the target while under the effects of swiftness.

In the above example of this altered relic of speed, you can tell it's an amazing ability...worthy of being taken. But it also has this undecidability to it, that makes the input from the player always variable...that variable is continuous...based on distance to the target, and at 1000 range, the person using relic of speed, no longer can do any damage to them. This trade off between increased movement and reduced outgoing damage, is manipulated by both the input of the user, and their enemy along this continuous axis, making any decidable computation inconceivable. In essence, there's no optimal strategy calculation a person can make to determine it's effectiveness in all scenario's.

Mind that being variable, does not mean the input is random. It's driven, by input from players, which gives the players their agency...the ability to chose when they want to benefit, or detriment themselves.

Another example, more related to this idea of "counters" existing in the space of possible builds...is just embedding counters into the game, by just creating them... is another way to ensure that out in the space of possible builds, builds can exist that can counter each other...like for instance

Relic of the Necromancer

CC effects you inflict strip swiftness from foes instead. When you strip swiftness from a foe, inflict slow.

It's pretty simple : people that take this relic effect, will counter people who take relic of speed (by stripping and converting their swiftness into slow condition, in exchange for the ability to stun an enemy). So naturally...if say for any reason Relic of Speed had a build that became too good...then you would see a rise in people taking relic of the necromancer, and this reduces the population of people that took relic of speed. You can continue this logic...by just creating more things, that soft counter one another so that players, in the space of possible builds, find solutions to their problems. and again this process is made possible by undecidability; the fact that there is no optimal calculation a player can make for all situations, and it's aided by permutability...the fact that this element can be used in a number of builds so that one can find multiple solution to a problem they encounter in the space of all possible builds.

Usefulness is also another tenet to follow as you can tell from these effects : useful effects, and these kind of dynamic tradeoffs not only make the game undecidable, but make the game meaningful to play and rich to us humans, since we care about meaningful decisions, and want the stuff we press to mean something. Whether we press that button and we win, or press that button and we die, is part of this meaningful decision making. In extension, every skill in the game should have this kind of design and meaning to it. Using these tenets...numbers also no longer serve any purpose...players are the ones that determine the balance of the game, and you rely on them and nature's juice, to self balance outliers themselves. The way nature truly works, it does offer a utopia that people haven't realized yet is possible.

Sorry for the long response, but I hope that answered this question.

Edited September 29, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Burnfall.9573]

Oh look! take a look at this; Trapper Guardian Raising Back From The Dead after 7years+. This is why Bad Design are Immune To Nerfs  BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT NERF BAD DESIGN, IT ALWAYS COME BACK UNTIL YOU REMOVE/REWORK IT!!! 

STOP WASTING TIME NERFING BAD DESIGN ENDLESSLY. BAD DESIGN CAN NOT BE NERFED. IT IS NOT BALANCE!!!

 

7 Years Ago

 

Current: "Balance"

16 hours ago

 

4 months ago

Edited September 29, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Sahne.6950]

i dont think anyone has ever clicked on any of your links, other than to see how old the video is this time.

Dragonhunter is fine. Dragonhunter is fun.  

Let that poor guy alone :C

Edited September 29, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Myror.7521]

@Sahne.6950 in gotta correct myself. You could indeed counterplay Bladesworn with condi zerker (If you gonna use might signet instead of shattering Blow). But again i would say If you use both Meta Builds (Defence Bladesworn on Pistol offhand and zerker with shattering Blow) its like a never ending Story fight but a half brained bsw player should slowly be able to win tha Fight. 

[Sahne.6950]

25 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Sahne.6950 in gotta correct myself. You could indeed counterplay Bladesworn with condi zerker (If you gonna use might signet instead of shattering Blow). But again i would say If you use both Meta Builds (Defence Bladesworn on Pistol offhand and zerker with shattering Blow) its like a never ending Story fight but a half brained bsw player should slowly be able to win tha Fight. 

oh hell yeah 😄 shatteringblow doesnt cut it against bsw! You need something that builds up pressure, to break the bsw sustainwall.

i am using Bullscharge instead of Shattering blow. It helps to land big bursts, and actually have them tick once or twice,  which then slowly but surely snowballs the matchup.   Also the extra fireaura you are going to get is noteworthy. That burn and the extra might you get on every hit taken is rly noticeable.   But that might just be my Ele brain having a "aura fetish".

i see mightsignet also working great in this matchup! ^^

Edited September 29, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Harbringer: Check.
Still no punishment for OOC mobility spam: Check.
Downstate revive spam: Check.


Meh

Edited September 29, 2023 by Vasdamas Anklast.1607

[Axl.8924]

7 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Let me also answer this question. To be honest, the true scope to answer this, which i've been typing for a while now...is much much too deep to have a conversation on...and that if you do want to have a serious conversation about it, you need to be...mentally prepared for that. It is a deep rabbit hole, and this shouldn't surprise anyone...because what we are talking about is the way that nature works. how nature works is like alluded to earlier, operating on such a...profound mechanism, and it requires build up to understand why that mechanism exists, and why it is the way nature works and not some other way.

So as a courtesy, I'll keep this as...intuitive and hopefully as short as I can...and related to guild wars 2. if you want to know further about why the two things below are the answer to this question, then you'd have to ask explicitly with that preparation in mind.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's 2 fundamental properties that you need, and these are universal properties for any system, even computational ones, if you wish to replicate biological systems in nature:

1) Permutation (allowing the elements of the system to permute themselves)

2) Undecidability (that the rules with which the system is following, is formally undecidable.) 

Notice how I didn't say uniqueness here. Uniqueness, as much as I thought that it was a fundamental property a while back... is not a necessarily a fundamental constraint to have a diverse system. However I do believe that uniqueness is derivative of the two properties when put together...rather it arises naturally as a result of permutation no matter what the underlying properties of the components are. For instance, a computer, operates on these same principles... permuting 0's and 1's to construct all possible computer programs. you'd argue that these are not a highly diverse set of constituents. When permuted however, these rather homogenous constituents construct themselves into diverse constituents. 0011100111 is unique and so is 1101100010...and so on and all together just permutation alone allows the construction of 2^10 (1024) possible unique configurations to exist in this system. In fact...this is how it's possible to play guild wars 2 on a computer...at base level its just a stream of 0's and 1's. The same would not be true, if it's fundamental constituent was only 0. So it's  important to understand this strange relationship between sameness, and diversity being very close together...and that the reason they are this way is because they are duel aspects of the same underlying construct that unifies them together.

Undecidability, and Permutability, is just a more formal way to describe the function of the unifying mechanism: These are the two keys you need to instantiate the world of all possible forms, for a system of any size. And with the instantiation of all possible forms (more formally, the construction of a Turing universal machine) you will naturally emerge the rest of the properties with which one would exhibit in a natural system, diversity, balance, and other neat things if you are interested in other kinds of systems, and not just guild wars 2. You can ask how hard is it to attain "undecidability," hence the reason for referencing Wolfram's research earlier. He proved in that book that undecidability, is ubiquitous, and that even systems running on the simplest rules, are Turing universal. 

With respect to Guild Wars 2, this simply boils down into making mechanics interesting/unsolvable/complex  + and the ability for those mechanics to interact with each other. When I say "complex" I don't mean to say that each mechanic needs to be described by a 100 page essay for a tooltip. The point is that Wolfram proved that complexity is easily attainable with even the most simple of rules...and we understand this when we see mechanics that are simple, but yield endlessly novel behavior (conquest PVP for example, is endlessly novel even though the rules of the game can be described in about a single sentence.) 

When these two properties are present, the system undergoes a computation and evolves over time. This evolution is what we perceive as "diversity" which is the constant flux between the different forms that emerge as a result of that system undergoing a computation. Permutability determines how many forms can exist, and Undecidability, guarantees the system will evolve through these forms forever. More abstractly, undecidability results in effective models of the finite system, which means that there really is no limit to the number of forms that can occur no matter what the permutation size of the space is. This is not an obvious fact...but it stems from the notion that, these systems, like the game, do not exist in isolation. us humans, are connected to the playing of this game, and connected to the rest of the causal universe and so the output state of the game can technically take on any conceivable behavior based on the input coming in (from the player, or any finite system that interacts with the input of the game) For all practical purposes, we assume that we don't care about those more abstract properties (that guild wars 2 game could at any moment produce code that resembles say the behavior of a fluid). But understand that it is this same abstract property that allows the game to evolve in accordance with behaviors that we impose onto it. 

An example of what that means...is that if we weren't humans, but some kind of alien, that played this game, these aliens would have an entirely different sense for what the playing of the game even means. For instance, our ability to do things in the game, is based on our brain and how we interpret information through our 5 senses. We tend to press keys one at a time or a couple at a time at most from moment to moment. But these aliens might press all their keys at the same time...or rather than playing the game through sight, play the game through sound. It could be that aliens have a totally different perception of time...or movement, happening in little increments. Collectively, the behavior of the playing of this game, by these hypothetical aliens might be so foreign to us, that it could take on properties that we might perceive to as being like a fluid, or some other kind of strange computation.

This journal, by Wolfram, called "Cat in a Party Hat" is a really good read and example for what I'm talking about here. About how strange things could be, for forms that are not like us...and so the playing of this game in the way we experience it, is intrinsically a human experience.

So let me conclude, You asked this question:

How do you create a balance game when you have so many classes which over the years have been given everything and having many things already kinda samey?

to repeat the answer is "making mechanics interesting/unsolvable/complex  + and the ability for those mechanics to interact with each other." which means...that Arenanet devs simply have to do meaningful work, with operations that matter. for instance, no amount of number changing is going to make a mechanic undecidable and therefor interesting. Both of these fundamental properties are necessary...especially the undecidability part.

It's another story as to how to operationally make undecidable mechanics...me personally I know how to do this because I've spent half a decade making systems. It's not that hard...but it's akin to an artform...you need to have developed an intuition for it. There are some basic tenets you can follow...for instance any equation, where the output is derived from the variable input of player behavior, automatically makes that mechanic undecidable...because the input being a variable derived from a turing machine (a human being), means the output never has a single answer. You also typically want to spread out this variability by placing it on a continuous dimension...spreading it to across a number of user inputs and not just one...like say for example

Relic of Speed

Increase movement speed by 100% when under the effect of swiftness. For each 100 range, you lose 10% damage against the target while under the effects of swiftness.

In the above example of this altered relic of speed, you can tell it's an amazing ability...worthy of being taken. But it also has this undecidability to it, that makes the input from the player always variable...that variable is continuous...based on distance to the target, and at 1000 range, the person using relic of speed, no longer can do any damage to them. This trade off between increased movement and reduced outgoing damage, is manipulated by both the input of the user, and their enemy along this continuous axis, making any decidable computation inconceivable. In essence, there's no optimal strategy calculation a person can make to determine it's effectiveness in all scenario's.

Mind that being variable, does not mean the input is random. It's driven, by input from players, which gives the players their agency...the ability to chose when they want to benefit, or detriment themselves.

Another example, more related to this idea of "counters" existing in the space of possible builds...is just embedding counters into the game, by just creating them... is another way to ensure that out in the space of possible builds, builds can exist that can counter each other...like for instance

Relic of the Necromancer

CC effects you inflict strip swiftness from foes instead. When you strip swiftness from a foe, inflict slow.

It's pretty simple : people that take this relic effect, will counter people who take relic of speed (by stripping and converting their swiftness into slow condition, in exchange for the ability to stun an enemy). So naturally...if say for any reason Relic of Speed had a build that became too good...then you would see a rise in people taking relic of the necromancer, and this reduces the population of people that took relic of speed. You can continue this logic...by just creating more things, that soft counter one another so that players, in the space of possible builds, find solutions to their problems. and again this process is made possible by undecidability; the fact that there is no optimal calculation a player can make for all situations, and it's aided by permutability...the fact that this element can be used in a number of builds so that one can find multiple solution to a problem they encounter in the space of all possible builds.

Usefulness is also another tenet to follow as you can tell from these effects : useful effects, and these kind of dynamic tradeoffs not only make the game undecidable, but make the game meaningful to play and rich to us humans, since we care about meaningful decisions, and want the stuff we press to mean something. Whether we press that button and we win, or press that button and we die, is part of this meaningful decision making. In extension, every skill in the game should have this kind of design and meaning to it. Using these tenets...numbers also no longer serve any purpose...players are the ones that determine the balance of the game, and you rely on them and nature's juice, to self balance outliers themselves. The way nature truly works, it does offer a utopia that people haven't realized yet is possible.

Sorry for the long response, but I hope that answered this question.

Wouldn't that kind of thing also fall apart if everyone with new builds gets certain combinations of skills? Such as Stealth 1 shot invuln spam with CC or 1 shot moves etc.

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

3 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

Wouldn't that kind of thing also fall apart if everyone with new builds gets certain combinations of skills? Such as Stealth 1 shot invuln spam with CC or 1 shot moves etc.

If you were following these fundamentals and tenets in that post...no. 

Mostly because those principles, in particular undecidability and those design tenets, ensure that the skills, self-balance themselves...in addition to being self-balanced by other players. Because the operation (adjusting mechanics) is done on the design of the basic elements of the game (skills)...you shouldn't even design such mechanics that could cause you those kinds of problems in the first place, and there's an infinite number of ideas to grab out there in the space of all possible ideas. Identifying what mechanics are going to be problems...is like I said earlier...an intuition type of thing. 

Just like humans need food to eat in order to walk around and do stuff...using invulnerability should COST you something...and the cost needs to be undecidable...because if its decidable it means you can optimize that calculation, and bypass the cost. Undecidability ensures this cost is not a static number, but a variable...a variable imposed by the actions of agents. 

The current implementation of invulnerability, the god mode button of all games in gaming history doesn't even have a cost...that should give you an idea of just how far away Arena-net is from these principles and tenets.

Lastly, mechanics like Invulnerability and Stealth are not continuous but rather binary. That was another tenet I mentioned...but basically invulnerability is simple : You are either god mode, or you are not...there is no in-between, and because it lies on this binary axis instead of a continuous one, it leaves no room for soft counter play, only hard counter play...It also can't be countered by the actions of enemy agents... so invulnerability is by far one of the worst mechanics you can try to deal with...and A-net built there game on it so nobody should be surprised that they deal with bad design issues.

Edited September 29, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Oh look! take a look at this;

Nty. 💀🥃

Love your enthusiasm though~

[Stand The Wall.6987]

what a great op to start off some quality content

[Burnfall.9573]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ely1DRS2mwA

Guild Wars 2 has become an absolute mess

Edited September 29, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Balsa.3951]

On 9/28/2023 at 8:50 AM, Deadmoose.6594 said:

Sure but usually things shift very slowly so things have time to adapt. Except for sudden mass extinction events, which are actually super rare. You're not really taking into account how in balance the ecosystems all over the world actually are. There's a certain randomness and chaos to nature, but definitely a balance as well.

hmm depends as usual who u ask. but ask google how many species go extinct every day and it looks not so slow. Its ofc numbers someone wrote down so its always with care to take it seriously.

i personally can't imagine its that bad but once a invasive species /class/ build appears there will be extinction events

[Rap Tiger.1257]

There will never be people here who think the game is more balanced because there are usually a lot of people crying when they lose to a class, I have difficulty killing some thiefs, the third class of the samurai-style warrior, etc., even so I don't keep crying asking for Anet to nerf it ....anet needs to be careful who listens to this forum.

[Rap Tiger.1257]

On 9/28/2023 at 3:13 PM, MalekithDG.6124 said:

Wanting it balanced is such a pure of heart act man. Anet havent touched willbender since its released for example (in wvw), those guys are as jolly as ever and they all downplay the class, check their forums. If I knew they would be reworking/buffing/balancing (whatever you want to call it) the other aspects of the ranger be it unused weapons, especs, pets etc. I would be rushing headlong for nerfing Soulbeast and whatever is overperforming.

You know full well ranger is ANET's scapegoat and never had in its mind "balancing the game" or working on ranger for betterment of the class. We seriously cant tank any more nerfs because we arent getting compensated.

Fixing the pets? Oh man, we are both rangers, you and me, and I am sure you know thats never going to happen. Untamed exists to fix that problem man under the marketing of "giving players more control over pets", in reality they know they wont be fixing that mechanic ever.

Do you really play ranger? You know that soulbeast dies quickly right? even with the burst it has, please...I've been playing this PvP game since a few months after the release of this game and you don't know what OP is

[Burnfall.9573]

Ncoft: Throne And Liberty's Changes Are Quite Incredible. The more Anet is putting up with Bad Design and Tolerating Toxic Stealth Mechanic with Toxic Control Effects,, the more they are setting up Guild Wars 2 as true Failure MMO game in the Gaming Industry.

Yes, it will have Guild vs Guild, new contents. as well as Guild Wars 2 open world WvW scenario, instant group setting, PvP, dungeon and The Holy Trinity.

To summarize everything I said, Anet Does Not Care To Turn The Game Into A Healthy Competitive Scenery and will continue to defend ignore The Community concerns about Bad Design with its Toxicity.

Finally, the Balance that we are waiting for, are not in Guild Wars 2 but in those who put the players experience first

Edited September 30, 2023 by Burnfall.9573