Can't Defend Structures because...

[Caffynated.5713]

This thread has convinced me that schools are failing our children. These poor little darlings can't count without using their fingers, and anything over 10 is 50. 

It's no wonder these guilds give up in despair when their scouts can't give an accurate count of enemies. Why show up with your 30 when the scouts are yelling about 2 rangers and a minion necro being 80 players?

[TheGrimm.5624]

42 minutes ago, Caffynated.5713 said:

This thread has convinced me that schools are failing our children. These poor little darlings can't count without using their fingers, and anything over 10 is 50. 

It's no wonder these guilds give up in despair when their scouts can't give an accurate count of enemies. Why show up with your 30 when the scouts are yelling about 2 rangers and a minion necro being 80 players?

Left field much. Love how you seem to want to start as a drama lama. Schools are for teaching trigonometry. Again if you want to bring up scouts need to improve go with that and make better points.

Edit: Sorry confused and sad peeps. Forum wars welcome all, but be polite and bring less drama and more points and avoid politics while making points. And avoid being keyboard toughs. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by TheGrimm.5624
Edit: Grow up

[ArchonWing.9480]

At the end of the day, players are responsible for their own results.

Commanders and guilds need to learn that not everyone is psychic. Don't hide your tag and then yell at people for not helping you. Also understand everyone has different goals. I know this is an MMO, but a lot of  guilds tend to  subpar social skills maybe due to the insular culture. It seems they don't know how to politely ask anything.

Solo players have a responsibility to learn how their characters work, and not be deadweight. It's the same concept when people come to learn fractals and raids. We can help you learn the content, but we're not here to teach you how to play your character itself. I've had people get angry at me for not telling them exactly when to dodge each time. That's not how it works.

 

The same applies to WvW. There's a huge wealth of information accessible with a few minutes of searching that there is no reason to not know how things play out in WvW and what works in large fights or whatnot.

Ultimately, while people can help you learn, it is not anyone's responsibility to teach you.

Guild Wars 2 has always suffered from the effectiveness of leeching and people doing the bare minimum while getting carried. And a lot of people just can't handle more than following a tag and pressing 1, though even that seems too challenging to some. And while everyone can enjoy the game in any way they wish, you will never truly enjoy this game mode if you can't play without someone else tagging up. That's because you're relying on someone else to play the game for you.

A real WvW player makes their own fun and success. We have a post here in this very thread:

7 hours ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

OP, just have fun. Like we do.... 

 

Treating a game like a game, realizing that winning 1st or 3rd doesn't mean a damned thing anyways, and finding ways to improve their play. Some improve to beat their enemies, but others do it to create fresh memes. Either way works.

Now I am certainly not absolving Anet of the responsibility to maintain this game mode. And no doubt they also need to pull their own weight. But practically speaking, you don't want to wait on them.

Edited October 25, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Kirevey.5079]

People seem to always make the point that Mag has too many people (in NA that may be true) but fully ignore that other servers like SoS for example seem the same way on off hours. 

I think like the main reason it feels like an uphill battle against Mag is a few small things with a lot of impact:

• Call outs: In Mag chat there is a lot of callouts, and when something is called out, I'd say 95% of the time you get people coming to help (unless is red bl lmao). I've been in other servers and tiers, and the map/team chat are basically dead and when something is called out, no one shows up unless there is a pin coming. In contrast, Mag will be calling very precise numbers, location and timers on tactics, lord RI, etc., so is very easy for people to decide on how to help.
• Build variety (some): The cloud feels harder to fight when there is a few people in there that are switching/adapting to w/e they are fighting. A lot of people have a roamer build, a zerg build, a troll build, etc., and they switch as needed. So I'll put my roamer build while running back to the fight in case I get jumped, then switch to my support one if we have enough damage, or my pin snipe build when the other group is hard to crack, etc. Have a few people doing the same and the cloud feels way harder to fight against. Mind you, is like prolly 4 or 5 ppl doing this on the regular, so you kill those 4 or 5 supports in the cloud and they all run back to SMC.
• Utilities: This is a big one, but people seem to always forget that stun breaks, cleanses, and mobility are very important. People on mag (most) always have some kind of escape plan. But on the other side too many people are fighting the cloud like if they are on a zerg, and because they don't have a support FB for stab, or a dedicated cleanser, they get caught all the time.

Thing that can help you against Mag:

• Like the friends from TC have funnily pointed out, pulls are the bane of Mag. That Maguma fall hill in red side of EBG is filled with the bodies of my homies.
• Burst: boon balls have gotten people too used to run very tanky, but against Mag you should run bursty damage to kill randoms fast.
• Baits: Most of us will want to just drag the fight and hit the tail. If you are running on an organized group, try to stick to your group. I know is harder than it seems, but I've seen too many people just forgetting their group then jumped by 5 clouders.
• Terrain is your friend: too many people don't know terrain on maps well enough or forget that sometimes going on a straight line back to a fight is not the right option. There are many ways to get from point A to point B on the maps so don't use the obvious ones. Example: your zerg is fighting on north hills and you are at SEC and there are people camping south hills? Go trough SEC and go on the right side canyon then regroup at north with your people.

As a final thing I'll add, is not that Mag has a lot of people, but we have too many degens that play long hours, vs other servers that have a lot of people that play just for like 1 ir 2 hours at a time.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Kirevey.5079

[dead.7638]

Just learn how to about face, everything will be fine.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Dying literally cost u nothing but a trip back to where u were, I don't get the mentality a lot of players have like as if they lose gear, points or progress if they die. In my server a group of 15 will even back down from a group of 5 or avoid them, it's so strange, like is it really that fun for players to stand in main keep idle till large zerg forms? 

[hanabal lecter.2495]

7 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Dying literally cost u nothing but a trip back to where u were, I don't get the mentality a lot of players have like as if they lose gear, points or progress if they die. In my server a group of 15 will even back down from a group of 5 or avoid them, it's so strange, like is it really that fun for players to stand in main keep idle till large zerg forms? 

Never understood why so many are afraid to die in a game still either lol.

Edited October 25, 2023 by hanabal lecter.2495

[Jaruselka.5943]

I chalk it up to the fact that Mag is a WvW "enthusiast" server: people there are more passionate about the game mode than most other servers. You tend to be better at activities you enjoy so it makes sense that they are on the top of the leaderboard. Given this it doesn't bother me when we go up against them, it's just the way it is. 

[Chaba.5410]

44 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

I get your point, but pretty often that squad already has what they need and they're still not it. Having one more support guardian won't force them to move instinctively or to capitalize on opportunities people open up for them. 

I haven't personally seen nor experienced a guild group that has what they need ask for more guardians. I have seen a guild group that has what it needs still struggle, sure.  They usually only ask if they don't have what they need. Those that have what they feel they need are usually complaining to pugs about staying away from them so they can work on those other skills.

[Chaba.5410]

35 minutes ago, Jaruselka.5943 said:

I chalk it up to the fact that Mag is a WvW "enthusiast" server: people there are more passionate about the game mode than most other servers. You tend to be better at activities you enjoy so it makes sense that they are on the top of the leaderboard. Given this it doesn't bother me when we go up against them, it's just the way it is. 

It's more a sort of old school open world pvp fights enthusiast server. They don't care too much about what kind of fights which is why they are willing to spend hours on end at a ebg spawn or smc. I personally get bored of most forms of grind after about 20-30m.

[Kuya.6495]

I was watching the movie The Patriot and it reminded me about the blob vs cloud thing. In the movie, the  British didn't think it was honorable that the American colonials wouldn't fight in a line infantry formation like they did. Which also reminded me of a friend who is in a wvw guild on another server that said her guild didn't like fighting mag because mag clouds and they don't find fighting clouds fun.

 

So to me it just sounds like the "problem" is clouding and the other accusations against maguuma are just dressing. Kind of like when you already hate a person, everything they do, regardless of if it's the reason you hated them in the first place, makes you mad.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Kuya.6495

[TheIceman.1039]

Even cloud have leader or small havocs inside cloud. Focus for them first.

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I was watching the movie The Patriot and it reminded me about the blob vs cloud thing. In the movie, the  British didn't think it was honorable that the American colonials wouldn't fight in a line infantry formation like they did. Which also reminded me of a friend who is in a wvw guild on another server that said her guild didn't like fighting mag because mag clouds and they don't find fighting clouds fun.

 

So to me it just sounds like the "problem" is clouding and the other accusations against maguuma are just dressing. Kind of like when you already hate a person, everything they do, regardless of if it's the reason you hate them or not, makes you mad.

 

Reminds me of all those fight guilds that stack across a bridge and expect  the enemy cloud to push them. All I have to do in say chat is say "you know, it's on them if they want to cross that bridge"

It's actually amazing how people  have every boon in the game and be healed to full in about 3s from any damage and 5 insta res skills ready to pick them up be afraid to take on disorganized pugs on open ground lol. Just W key that kitten instead of that weak kitten pirate ship stuff.

The real truth is many guilds would greatly benefit from a single hunting group that could blindslide ranged freecasters easily but because it's not on metabattle or whatever their guild meeting circlejerk said, it's not a valid tactic. And thus just yell at the healers when they jump 2000 range ahead into a zerg and complain about being pinsniped. Whatever works I guess.

Edited October 25, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[kash.9213]

25 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Reminds me of all those fight guilds that stack across a bridge and expect  the enemy cloud to push them. All I have to do in say chat is say "you know, it's on them if they want to cross that bridge"

It's actually amazing how people  have every boon in the game and be healed to full in about 3s from any damage and 5 insta res skills ready to pick them up be afraid to take on disorganized pugs on open ground lol. Just W key that kitten instead of that weak kitten pirate ship stuff.

The real truth is many guilds would greatly benefit from a single hunting group that could blindslide ranged freecasters easily but because it's not on metabattle or whatever their guild meeting circlejerk said, it's not a valid tactic. And thus just yell at the healers when they jump 2000 range ahead into a zerg and complain about being pinsniped. Whatever works I guess.

To be fair, that guild squad probably can't afford to lose any one from their composition. But your right, they can run a 2-1 or ?-? split if their voice coms isn't a clown show in a similar way that pug pack is likely running a split by instinct on them. We've all gotten that sinking feeling when we see two obvious squads forming up near each other when you thought it was just a big blob. 

[Chaba.5410]

34 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Reminds me of all those fight guilds that stack across a bridge and expect  the enemy cloud to push them. All I have to do in say chat is say "you know, it's on them if they want to cross that bridge"

Clouds aren't as effective in chokes so that's the tactic that should be used against them.  Too many times a driver doesn't get it that when they just w key through a cloud, they are freely exposing their flanks and putting players that don't stay tight too well at a higher risk of getting picked off than otherwise.  The cloud is also expecting the fight guilds to push and get kited out.  They are both ridiculous.

It's more ridiculous when it's two fight guilds stacked across a bridge from each other and stalemating.  Then you gotta start with the portal bombs, throw down some open field siege for bait, or just outright leave.

And this is why it can be boring to fight clouds all the time.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[ArchonWing.9480]

25 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

To be fair, that guild squad probably can't afford to lose any one from their composition. But your right, they can run a 2-1 or ?-? split if their voice coms isn't a clown show in a similar way that pug pack is likely running a split by instinct on them. We've all gotten that sinking feeling when we see two obvious squads forming up near each other when you thought it was just a big blob. 

True, it applies to larger squads that are more flexible with their numbers. But this is also where those pugs  can be handy, as opposed to shoehorning them into the b-team parties, or worse yet, just 1 big party. It is generally futile to tell party 1 to W key in because they physically can't.

22 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Clouds aren't as effective in chokes so that's the tactic that should be used against them.  Too many times a driver doesn't get it that when they just w key through a cloud, they are freely exposing their flanks and putting players that don't stay tight too well at a higher risk of getting picked off than otherwise.  The cloud is also expecting the fight guilds to push and get kited out.  They are both ridiculous.

Well, true, it is effective at farming braindead pugs that just charge in but either way it leads to a stalemate the better the opposition is. However,  when it comes to staying tight, it is necessary to enforce discipline, and sometimes that kind of stuff needs to be called out.

The problem is when it becomes the default tactic against any threatening enemy group and leads to....

22 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

It's more ridiculous when it's two fight guilds stacked across a bridge from each other and stalemating

At the end of the day, to get content, someone has to make a concession somewhere, and it sometimes is necessary to pick a proper battlefield that can suit both sides. Or else everyone just engages in a staring contest.

And yes I will start building siege if that happens.

Edited October 25, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Chaba.5410]

4 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

At the end of the day, to get content, someone has to make a concession somewhere, and it sometimes is necessary to pick a proper battlefield that can suit both sides. Or else everyone just engages in a staring contest.

xD

They're just afraid to die in a video game!  /sarcasm

Jokes aside, I'll throw down siege too.

[ArchonWing.9480]

8 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

xD

They're just afraid to die in a video game!  /sarcasm

Jokes aside, I'll throw down siege too.

Well, maybe I've played WvW for too long, but I often aim for the choice that results in the most chaos. xD (Not unlike the forums)

Once we trolled in the middle south BL island  by buffing and then going into the water to turn it into the real test of skill-- underwater fights!

As for being afraid of dying, hmm, I suppose rallying the enemy is an actual problem but I doubt most worry about that. I actually play extremely :"safe" myself though am perfectly happy with a good exchange rate on enemies brought down/screwed over. I just get people like Grimm to absorb my KDR losses a bit.

Edited October 25, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[SweetPotato.7456]

18 hours ago, Kirevey.5079 said:

People seem to always make the point that Mag has too many people (in NA that may be true) but fully ignore that other servers like SoS for example seem the same way on off hours. 

I think like the main reason it feels like an uphill battle against Mag is a few small things with a lot of impact:

• Call outs: In Mag chat there is a lot of callouts, and when something is called out, I'd say 95% of the time you get people coming to help (unless is red bl lmao). I've been in other servers and tiers, and the map/team chat are basically dead and when something is called out, no one shows up unless there is a pin coming. In contrast, Mag will be calling very precise numbers, location and timers on tactics, lord RI, etc., so is very easy for people to decide on how to help.
• Build variety (some): The cloud feels harder to fight when there is a few people in there that are switching/adapting to w/e they are fighting. A lot of people have a roamer build, a zerg build, a troll build, etc., and they switch as needed. So I'll put my roamer build while running back to the fight in case I get jumped, then switch to my support one if we have enough damage, or my pin snipe build when the other group is hard to crack, etc. Have a few people doing the same and the cloud feels way harder to fight against. Mind you, is like prolly 4 or 5 ppl doing this on the regular, so you kill those 4 or 5 supports in the cloud and they all run back to SMC.
• Utilities: This is a big one, but people seem to always forget that stun breaks, cleanses, and mobility are very important. People on mag (most) always have some kind of escape plan. But on the other side too many people are fighting the cloud like if they are on a zerg, and because they don't have a support FB for stab, or a dedicated cleanser, they get caught all the time.

Thing that can help you against Mag:

• Like the friends from TC have funnily pointed out, pulls are the bane of Mag. That Maguma fall hill in red side of EBG is filled with the bodies of my homies.
• Burst: boon balls have gotten people too used to run very tanky, but against Mag you should run bursty damage to kill randoms fast.
• Baits: Most of us will want to just drag the fight and hit the tail. If you are running on an organized group, try to stick to your group. I know is harder than it seems, but I've seen too many people just forgetting their group then jumped by 5 clouders.
• Terrain is your friend: too many people don't know terrain on maps well enough or forget that sometimes going on a straight line back to a fight is not the right option. There are many ways to get from point A to point B on the maps so don't use the obvious ones. Example: your zerg is fighting on north hills and you are at SEC and there are people camping south hills? Go trough SEC and go on the right side canyon then regroup at north with your people.

As a final thing I'll add, is not that Mag has a lot of people, but we have too many degens that play long hours, vs other servers that have a lot of people that play just for like 1 ir 2 hours at a time.

 

can confirm this, best link I've ever have is Mag. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by SweetPotato.7456

[CowZephyr.5302]

On 10/24/2023 at 9:30 PM, Chaba.5410 said:

Well if you're fighting a 50 Mag cloud, which you often are, yes, they should have a full 50 stacked squad with one guard and healer in each party.  The way target caps work in this game means you need numbers to be closer than 30 v 50.  Do you have any idea how highly coordinated and perfectly timed a 30-man has to be these days to take on map queues?

wait a minute, the mag i play with almost always is a bunch of chimps running around trying to make something work, one of the very few tags they follow is obs, and we rarely have enought firebrands to fill 3 groups, there's tempests and rangers, mostly rangers and thiefs.

[Junkpile.7439]

You are in hills wall with 7 other pugs, 15 dudes in wall throw kitten at you and wait that two blob guilds + zone blob come help def. 🤦‍♂️

[Chaba.5410]

2 hours ago, CowZephyr.5302 said:

wait a minute, the mag i play with almost always is a bunch of chimps running around trying to make something work, one of the very few tags they follow is obs, and we rarely have enought firebrands to fill 3 groups, there's tempests and rangers, mostly rangers and thiefs.

So? You lost the context of the responses. Go back to the start.

[Riba.3271]

As long as balance is in a way where objective balance is a joke, organised groups won't be too interested in defending or taking anything:

1. Playing greatly unbalanced combat isn't as fun. Defending side wins almost always. When outcome of results is almost defined, losing will just lead to unnecessary frustration after or before.
2. Disorganised clouds can easily defeat organised groups. Good comp and putting extra effort in to group up is rewarded less than transferring to cloud servers with good numbers.
3. SM will be T3 and untakeable, even with slightly stronger group, most reasonable timezones  which in return makes EB unplayable. This also applies to any borderland with lot of T3 objectives and numbers available to defend.

Now of course server linking system and 500 gem transfers also disinsentivise groups from playing for objectives,  but mainly groups don't do it because it isn't fun and requires ton of effort and time compared to how much you get out of it.

People wouldn't avoid any cloud server if they could overwhelm them and their territory once in a while, but objective balance is just in a way that disorganised groups are stronger than organised groups as soon as you go inside their keeps or castles.

[CowZephyr.5302]

2 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

So? You lost the context of the responses. Go back to the start.

You're correct and i am wrong, however running a 50 boonblob as a guild isn't fun to fight, instead of that they should probably invest into getting good at the game so they can fight on equal terms, boonblob meta is boring.

[ArchonWing.9480]

5 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Disorganised clouds can easily defeat organised groups.

True, if the organized group is heavily outnumbered. Even numbers no way, unless people are really bad at staying together with bad uptime. Then they're really not that organized.

Now, an organized cloud is a different story. An organized cloud can definitely crush a boon blob, but that is mostly due to exploiting  ignorance, arrogance, and complacency.

Clouds could defiinitely outPPT boonblobs but I'm sure we're not talking about that.

 

 

5 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Good comp and putting extra effort in to group up is rewarded less than transferring to cloud servers with good numbers.

Which is why almost every group with more than 2 similar guild tags runs a boon ball all the way from map queue to 5 person "roaming" party?  I really hesitate to believe they're all handicapping themselves because boon spam is high skill gameplay, especially when people are willing to take any edge they can get.

The superiority of stacking sustain and instant res carry me skills simply cannot be denied, beyond user error and skewed numbers.

If you're referring to server wide organization where the entire server works as a team and has defined roles and responsibilities, then yes, that's been very dead for years.  A lot of WvW servers are more like waiting rooms rather than communities.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480