The people designing ele should be reassigned

[Arheundel.6451]

2 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Things suddenly make infinitely more sense if you think something that people play because it's busted as heck and incredibly overpowered is "amazing design"

I have got news for you! Guardian and Necro cover like 60% of the playerbase because they're busted AF...it's not like either way Anet gives a kitten when it comes to those 2 professions!

It's ok for a necro to have an elite that gives all boons to himself and all condis to you...meanwhile ele got what?...tornado?

[Poelala.2830]

31 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

What a glorious pity party

 

Didn't you make a post about some meta-class farming one of ur Frankenstein core engi builds?

[bethekey.8314]

51 minutes ago, Poelala.2830 said:

Didn't you make a post about some meta-class farming one of ur Frankenstein core engi builds?

Yep 🙂

[Downstate.4697]

Ele isn’t that bad. Make more utilities usable and buff some weapons a bit

[Arheundel.6451]

14 hours ago, magickthief.6492 said:

 

This is all you had to say, because that is exactly it's core design. It isn't a warrior, it isn't a thief. You want to play those roles? PLAY THOSE ROLES on those classes.

Sounds like somebody who got farmed by eles since day 1 and still going strong

[DanAlcedo.3281]

9 hours ago, Poelala.2830 said:

Thief, engineer, and necro have had at least 1 meta build almost (if not) every patch since at least HoT. War is in a very strong state. This post isn't just about poor balancing, but the class's design as a whole.

War class design has been horrible since almost launch. 

[Sahne.6950]

I just love how ele completly vanished from the meta and everyone is just like....     "bro... you simply need to git gud"

 

Those goldplayers are getting clapped by some p3 FACata and think the profession is in a good spot.... not realizing they got "Grand Canyon skillgaped".

 

The only profession thats in a worse spot right now is Revenant.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

The only profession thats in a worse spot right now is Revenant.

Rev is op and needs more nerfs.

[Dreams.3128]

Forum bugged out, pls ignore.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Dreams.3128
Duplicate posts

[Dreams.3128]

Another bugged out moment

Edited November 3, 2023 by Dreams.3128
Duplicate Posts

[Dreams.3128]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:02 AM, Poelala.2830 said:

Well-said 🙂 I like my naggy/complainy tone more than your reasoned tone, though.

Understandable, lol. We all gotta lean towards that at some point. 

 

18 hours ago, Arken.3725 said:

 

This is fairly rich.  Guardian is EASILY the worst-designed profession in the game and I can easily prove it.

- No other profession has SO many terribly-tracking skills(Torch, Scepter-Auto, Staff-Auto, LB at max range, Zealot's Defense, Zealot's Embrace, Binding Blade, Leap of Faith)

- The most static class in terms of mechanics(Consecrations, Symbols, rooted-skills)

- Nearly every healing-skill is garbage.  You're taking the lesser of many evils here; same with utilities.  Heaven's palm has got to be the worst Elite-skill in the game, bar none.  

I could go on far more than this dude ever could.  Outside of support, Guardian has been TERRIBLE for the longest time.

Oh really? So we're gonna ignore the entirety of HoT and PoF before Guardian's specs got nerfed? We are gonna ignore pre-expansion Guard? The only time Guard has been actually weak is essentially now and EoD era. I wasn't around for when Willbender dropped or its beta, so if anyone wants to tell me about that, that would be neat. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I just love how ele completly vanished from the meta and everyone is just like....     "bro... you simply need to git gud"

This is what burns me the most about situations like this. Class unviable, people go "just get better/play something else"

But the moment the class works all those players who have been grinding it despite it being trash start steamrolling people and suddenly there's a problem.

Or, even worse, a tangent to the class gets buffed with an obviously broken competitive synergy (like staunch auras/dragonscale defense) and then when it gets nerfed it takes the already weaker builds down with it, as I mentioned before.

I don't play ele anywhere near the level required to understand the intricacies, but I -do- know I havent been seeing any glassy ones besides the diehard memers, and that usually indicates a problem. If it doesn't work fix it. preferably in a way that doesnt make it immortal so it becomes worse.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Dreams.3128 said:

I wasn't around for when Willbender dropped or its beta, so if anyone wants to tell me about that, that would be neat. 

It shipped weak. Then it was quickly adjusted to be broken, now it is somewhere in between (for competitive spvp)

Guardian has been one of the most consistently viable classes across both pve and pvp. Firebrand took a hit (because it was consistently broken), but everything else has worked from core to now. It's never been absent from the meta, if I am not mistaken.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

2 hours ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

Mabons relic

Spite traitlines + blighters boon plus weapon signs to give might on swap/hit +shout that breaks stun and might=gg any mode

 

 

On 11/2/2023 at 6:24 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Someone was downstate one to many times. 

Someone got downstate while being in downstate. This this post of qq.

[Arken.3725]

1 hour ago, Dreams.3128 said:

Understandable, lol. We all gotta lean towards that at some point. 

 

Oh really? So we're gonna ignore the entirety of HoT and PoF before Guardian's specs got nerfed? We are gonna ignore pre-expansion Guard? The only time Guard has been actually weak is essentially now and EoD era. I wasn't around for when Willbender dropped or its beta, so if anyone wants to tell me about that, that would be neat. 

PoF FB again, was support.  I've said it time and again that Support Guard is the only consistently viable spec.  DH was never meta, it was held together with tape by Trapper runes.  WB was strong for 3 months and is now crap.  Please read my whole post as to why Guardian is the worst DESIGNED profession.  It's slow, static by nature in a game where movement is so important.  

There is no other profession who's design goes against how the games combat system promotes.  I mean this wholeheartedly, name a single profession who's ACTUAL design goes so much against how the games combat-system promotes.  Guardian, for some reason, has SO many static, poorly tracked, and immobile features that it's mindboggling.  Here's a list:

-Symbols, Willbender Flames

-Utility skills:  Consecrations, Spirit Weapons

-Multiple weapon skills:  Ring of Warding, Empowering Might, Zealot's Defense, True shot

-Skills that can't track even when within range:  Scepter Auto, Long bow Auto at max range, Staff Auto at max range, Zealot's Defense, Zealot's Embrace, Binding Blade, Zealot's Fire.

I'll easily bet 100g, in game if you can prove to me another profession who has more problems than Guardian.  I haven't even gone into traits, elite skills, utilities, ect.  

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

18 minutes ago, Arken.3725 said:

PoF FB again, was support.  I've said it time and again that Support Guard is the only consistently viable spec.  DH was never meta, it was held together with tape by Trapper runes.  WB was strong for 3 months and is now crap.  Please read my whole post as to why Guardian is the worst DESIGNED profession.  It's slow, static by nature in a game where movement is so important.  

There is no other profession who's design goes against how the games combat system promotes.  I mean this wholeheartedly, name a single profession who's ACTUAL design goes so much against how the games combat-system promotes.  Guardian, for some reason, has SO many static, poorly tracked, and immobile features that it's mindboggling.  Here's a list:

-Symbols, Willbender Flames

-Utility skills:  Consecrations, Spirit Weapons

-Multiple weapon skills:  Ring of Warding, Empowering Might, Zealot's Defense, True shot

-Skills that can't track even when within range:  Scepter Auto, Long bow Auto at max range, Staff Auto at max range, Zealot's Defense, Zealot's Embrace, Binding Blade, Zealot's Fire.

I'll easily bet 100g, in game if you can prove to me another profession who has more problems than Guardian.  I haven't even gone into traits, elite skills, utilities, ect.  

Uh Necro says hello in Design against actual game combat 

[Flowki.7194]

17 hours ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

Definitely the wrong forum for that lol. This game has been cynically catering to the lowest-common-denominator for so long that that's pretty much 99% of the remaining pvp playerbase. Just bringing up the very basic concept of like, "Hey maybe it should actually take at least 1/4th of a brain cell to play a meta pvp spec." seems to give half the posters here a compete psychic break.

Exactly, skill floors need to be at a level where you die fast for making a few blatent mistakes or bad engagement choices. There are a number of specs where that is simply not the case, some of them are now in meta status. The main thing that bothers me at the minute, is the amount of specs that can press a button, take 0 damage, but continue to spew out their own damage. This basically allows them to indefinately face tank for upward of 5 seconds (see arcane shield as a balanced alternitive), while dealing burst. How many times the community complained about ele immunes (which did not allow you to attack) yet are now silent on the current issues mentioned. It simply confirms double standards, and then some.

 

17 hours ago, Saiyan.1704 said:

That's one of the biggest issues with this game and the elitist community that "circle jerk" the devs when they buff their classes... or QQ hysterically when their jack-of-all-trades class gets a huge nerf.

* "Lets play Engi because it has more buttons and carries... Lets go back to Cata because they have more buttons and carries but does more on every node it comes across compared to engi... Oh, War has less buttons but carries on sidenode they are OP and needs nerfs this is ridiculous my Cata can't beat them..."

Should we just blame Anet for making "easy classes" and "harder classes" at this point??? Because saying that 1 class is "more difficult" because it takes all your fingers + nipples to play the rotation of it. God forbid a nipple ring gets in the way of your piano playstyle.

This particular argument is the wrong way to go about it.

 

I played ele for over a year, I ran an entire expantion on hammer cata, and played it for months in sPVP. Despite that, I still struggled with 1v1 side noding, and genuinely have no memory of ever winning a direct 1v2, it likely happened at some point I guess. After one hour of playing blade, people were running away from 1v1's, and I won a 1v2. On condi zerker, I was astonished at how many times I killed a person from just hitting them one time with that special little button.

 

Similarly, on SB, I played it for around 5 hours, and was then consistantly topping damage and winning a lot of 1v1s (I stopped playing it after getting a 16k crit for no valid reason other than pressing 2 buttons). I just played SB merged all the time, didnt even bother with stealth and unmerged pet control (a decent chunk of its utility), yet still topping damage almost every game, and still winning most 1v1's. Now go ahead my friend, jump on hammer or scepter cata, and try to top damage or win anything withought combos on either, or FA swapping on scepter. You cannot ''leave out'' any mechanics on ele and expect to do well. Only signet condi cata allowed that monstrosity of a low skill floor, high reward playstyle.

 

I could go on with such examples of multiple other specs ive played, but they all come down to the same thing, specs that achieve high damage/mitigation with few buttons are simply EASIER to do well with. Such specs are now in meta so it can't even be argued that they are less effective as a downside.. they are simply not. Explain to me why the amount of buttons has no baring on this?

 

The only specs Ive tried that were moderate to hard to play, and felt justified in the damage/mitigation/mobility, was power untamed, hollowsmith, and revenent in general. BIG SHOCK; Just like ele, they all have abilitys spread across multiple skill bars that YOU MUST use in order to be effective OR YOU DIE. Thief unfortunately never gets my vote becuase of its broken mobility/stealth, which makes it a crutch for bad players.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Sereath.1428]

20 hours ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

Definitely the wrong forum for that lol. This game has been cynically catering to the lowest-common-denominator for so long that that's pretty much 99% of the remaining pvp playerbase. Just bringing up the very basic concept of like, "Hey maybe it should actually take at least 1/4th of a brain cell to play a meta pvp spec." seems to give half the posters here a compete psychic break.

9 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I just love how ele completly vanished from the meta and everyone is just like....     "bro... you simply need to git gud"

 

Those goldplayers are getting clapped by some p3 FACata and think the profession is in a good spot.... not realizing they got "Grand Canyon skillgaped".

 

The only profession thats in a worse spot right now is Revenant.

A lot of people here don't like to hear that not everything should be equally rewarding.

Risk/Reward wise, it's just kittened to make everything like this:
Low Risk / High Reward
High Risk / High Reward

That's how you end up with over-represented classes/specs at every single skill level, which also comes with degenerate, easy-to-do mechanics/combos with no downsides that just make the game infuriating to everyone.
It's a conversation I quickly got tired of taking part in, a hopeless situation.
(Just as you can't really say, around here, that Revenant is underperforming in any way. Otherwise someone will come screeching about how perfectly S tier Revenant still is in every form since you somehow don't have to spend resources for surviving, perfect scenarios, just spam every skill on your target and spam all the dodges and spam all the teleports, etc. "It's only you bro, because I still had a Revenant kill me once by spamming all their kitten! for every 15 others I mauled within 5 seconds.")

Many do love to use the exceptional player with over a thousand hours on a spec they still like and play as an excuse to "Hey, this hasn't been nerfed enough! Someone just steamrolled me with it!"

If anything, every class should have at least one more complex spec than its core. Tying so many effects to so few skills (like a single skill, F1) is never going to stop being problematic. And/or lean more towards the resource management aspect. More downsides = more rewards, basically.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[Poelala.2830]

17 hours ago, Downstate.4697 said:

Ele isn’t that bad. Make more utilities usable and buff some weapons a bit

yep, kinda what I said + traits are mostly bad

[Poelala.2830]

4 hours ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

Uh Necro says hello in Design against actual game combat 

Necro has been top-tier meta in probably every patch since AT LEAST HoT. Every team has almost always run at least 1 necro. Necro has historically had MULTIPLE viable builds at times other classes at 1 or less. 

[Shagie.7612]

15 minutes ago, Poelala.2830 said:

Necro has been top-tier meta in probably every patch since AT LEAST HoT. Every team has almost always run at least 1 necro. Necro has historically had MULTIPLE viable builds at times other classes at 1 or less. 

Feel like there's a real big disconnect here between design and actual performance that's largely based on things like number tuning that you're missing.

Not saying I agree with necro/guard being poorly designed necessarily, but if you gave something a literal touch of death it'd be in every team.
That doesn't make it well designed.

[Caffynated.5713]

On 11/2/2023 at 3:06 PM, Sweetbread.3678 said:

Ele could definitely use a pass on it's utilities, I'll give you that, but largely it's main problem is that it's one of the only somewhat decently designed classes in the game. The issue isn't that Ele actually has to make tradeoffs between sustain and damage or that it's mechanic actually has a real sense of risk vs. reward and opportunity cost (stuff which is actually good game design and we should have more of), it's that so many other classes/specs that don't actually have any real depth/complexity/tradeoffs have been powercrept and overloaded to the same level (or more) as something that's entirely designed around those tradeoffs and complexity mitigating that power level. Ele doesn't need buffs, the rest of the game's brain dead specs just actually need to have their output match their effort required. Balance principles shouldn't fly out the window just because a class was intended for a toddler to be able to pilot.

Like Ele's niche was always being a sort of jack-of-all-trades by having a deep, diverse set of skills which in turn were balanced around being the glassiest class in the game (which absolutely forces trading off damage for defense), having to know and manage twice as many skills, and having all of their effects compartmentalized by mutually-exclusive attunements that have a built in opportunity cost/management mechanic. Now Ele's lost that niche, because everything else has been power crept into also being a jack-of-all-trades, except they get to be it while having only 10 overloaded weapon skills to manage and basic/easy af mechanics like Shroud or Virtues or Whatever as a bonus on top of it. So you end up in a situation where 90% of the time Ele's are stuck abusing horrrrribly designed auras, because it's really their only option. When every other class has the same level of diversity as 20 ele skills crammed into 10, then Ele's class mechanic no longer has any actual benefit to it in the same way that say having a second health bar with shroud does; they're literally just the glassiest class in the game with an incredibly complicated weapon swap for no other reason than "I guess we need a hard mode? *shrug* ".

"10 overloaded weapon skills"

Just to point out how absurdly overloaded other class weapon skills are compared to Ele, these are both Focus skills.

One is Necromancer.

One is Elementalist.

 

Can anyone guess which skill belongs to which class? 

https://imgur.com/j7nv8XR

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

4 hours ago, Caffynated.5713 said:

"10 overloaded weapon skills"

Just to point out how absurdly overloaded other class weapon skills are compared to Ele, these are both Focus skills.

One is Necromancer.

One is Elementalist.

 

Can anyone guess which skill belongs to which class? 

https://imgur.com/j7nv8XR

Freezing Gust deals damage? Never noticed.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 hours ago, Caffynated.5713 said:

"10 overloaded weapon skills"

Just to point out how absurdly overloaded other class weapon skills are compared to Ele, these are both Focus skills.

One is Necromancer.

One is Elementalist.

 

Can anyone guess which skill belongs to which class? 

https://imgur.com/j7nv8XR

To be fair ele has four seperate focus 5s. This comparison is prob a bit too granular.

22 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

The only profession thats in a worse spot right now is Revenant.

Mmmmmm I wouldnt go that far

[Caffynated.5713]

46 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

To be fair ele has four seperate focus 5s. This comparison is prob a bit too granular.

 

Necro having 15 weapon skills instead of 20 isn't really a justification for an equivalent skill doing 10x damage, 2x chill, and removing 3 boons with longer range and shorter CD. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Caffynated.5713