Hurl Venomous Axes with the Thief’s Expanded Weapon Proficiency

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Depends on if they're nice and give it a melee cleave that fires a projectile at same time, which is actually what I wanted for mainhand sword if you look at my wishlist, lol. Master Sword kinda stuff: "Sword Slice/Slash/Crippling Strike: Sword 1 Skills fire a short ranged piercing Shadow Blade projectile finisher through the enemy when you're above the health threshold. Kinda like a single projectile Dragon Claw. (A fun way to give sword combo finishers without it being stealth combo related.) "

Rev sword used to have something like this on the second slot IIRC. Was removed because projectile hate could stall the chain. Guardian sword also does something similar, but after the nerf to visual effects, I don't think everyone knows how far the final skill of that chain actually reaches.

[kidbuu.4071]

On 11/18/2023 at 7:44 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

I do think the awkwardness of placing the axes is part of why they made them do no damage - if they were damage fields, they'd either need to be ground-targeted, or players would end up having to go to great lengths to make sure that the axes ended up exactly where they wanted them. With the spinny axes doing no damage, the thief doesn't need to worry about where they are beyond "is the path going to be blocked when I use skill 3", and the overall power budget can be based on that assumption.

I suspect another reason is so that a stealthed thief can't be revealed by an enemy player deliberately walking into an axe. (Which, come to think on it, might also be part of the reason that thief traps were reworked into preparations). 

Yup 👍

[kidbuu.4071]

It would have been nice to see them give axe a pull feature vs another Shadow step.

Since it's a hybrid weapon, I hope the dual wield skill (ax pistol) will provide significant stacks of vulnerability, boonstrip and or might. 

 

[Tails.9372]

From the stream:

Quote

The malicious stealth attack for axe will do poison damage based on the stacks of malice consumed.

Given the main theme of this weapon (it being more condi or power based on the off hand) this seems to be a rather poorly thought out implementation as it completely sidelines power builds. Making the malicious stealth attack do poison and apply a further bonus to condi / strike damage (based on the equiped off hand) for each stack of malice consumed would be a much better implementation for it.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Well we've been given confirmed evade frames

[AppleSauce.4578]

I need to see Astralaria on all those spinning axes

[Eddie.9143]

Did they miss showing what deadeye gets?

[Tails.9372]

Yes, they only said, after they noticed, that it consumes malice for poison damage.

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

Man I really like the idea for the axe but I'm very much against the forced shadowstep on a damage positive skill, that always ends up being kinda awkward to play. Kind of a similar issue with Mirage's axes. I like them in concept but I'd rather the skill 2 not animation lock you while spinning, considering the skill 3 is also an animation lock.

Also, it's really starting to show on thief the lack of new offhands. Axes would've worked very well as a double set like the guardian pistol or necro sword. Would've given them a chance to add some variety to the offhands, especially considering how confused the thief weapons are. Both dagger and pistol mainhands have power and condi.

Dagger / dagger is a pretty good condi weapon, but it's stealth attack and 2 skill are power only. You want to equip an offhand dagger so you have access to death blossom, but they you don't really want to use the offhand dagger since it's main use is stealth from cloak and dagger, and your stealth attack is for power.

Pistol 1 and 2 are condi, but if you pair up with another pistol the 3 skill is power, and with a dagger it becomes another forced teleport.

Offhand Axe could've rounded up the kits a bit better.

[draxynnic.3719]

53 minutes ago, Vennyhedgie.5369 said:

Dagger / dagger is a pretty good condi weapon, but it's stealth attack and 2 skill are power only. You want to equip an offhand dagger so you have access to death blossom, but they you don't really want to use the offhand dagger since it's main use is stealth from cloak and dagger, and your stealth attack is for power.

You could use skill 4 for some torment if you're out of DB range and have initiative to burn.

But you're not wrong. I was hoping for axe to have a melee condi stealth attack since that seemed to be an obvious gap, but it was not to be.

[Doggie.3184]

Bounding Dodge's combo field priority still isn't fixed. So much for using it with Axe in group play, just like all the other /p Daredevil builds.

 

[BobbyT.7192]

Math time.

So I did some quick calculations and the damage coefficients, I came up with the following (rough math):

• skill 1: 0.80
• skill 2: 0.5 per axe for 1.5 total
• stealth: 1.5

Interestingly, with the dual attacks, not only does it take the conditions properties of the above skills, but the damage coeff as well. Which means the strike damage from 2 uses of skill 2 is actually less then 6 uses of skill 1.  (6x 0.5  vs 6x 0.8)  Of course the time it takes  to max the axes will be depended on the skill used. In theory, you would want 6 axes of the stealth attack for big numbers,  but getting 3 would be a struggle. Damage would seems low but keep in mind that these are 5 target piercing projectiles, and we all know what ANET thinks about piercing attacks for thieves.

Edited November 29, 2023 by BobbyT.7192

[Straegen.2938]

Well roaming in WvW I find the axe weak. Dagger off-hand has a nice teleport but the axes are so slow by the time they arrive the target is gone because without ridiculous levels of boon striping few get immob'd anymore. Also the teleport doesn't place me behind the target it just teleports like steal. Pistol off-hand doesn't seem to have any synergy with axe at all. It can kill scrubs but so can every other weapon. In duels, it is getting torn up. Axe is just too slow to stack condi and relies on a gimmick for any burst that is pretty easy to avoid IMO.

Absolutely worst thing about Axe/Dagger is that it cannot run anyone down despite having a nice teleport. You can catch them but the axes will invariably be behind you and the target so even the immob is useless in this situation if it works because none of the pre-cast axes will land.

Maybe in PvE it will perform better where everything face tanks but as a WvW thief I am not interested in slow projectiles... the class simply does not have the sustain to wait for damage build up at least in WvW. 

[roamzero.9486]

Axe/Pistol is ok, damage feels kind of low. The stealth attack is comfortable to use with the ini regen it provides, and it's nice that the axes actually target the enemy.

Axe/Dagger feels frustrating. Building up 6 axes and then they're too slow to hit properly when you use Axe 3. It's not even worth it for the 5 torment even if they did hit reliably.

Overall Axe is a slow weapon, and if anything needs to be done A/D 3 needs to be tuned a lot better.

[anonim.5932]

The A/D 3 skill definitely needs to be worked on. The shadow step towards the enemy does not seem to provide anything but the possibility to hit D5. Perhaps an Idea could be to make axe a range-and-melee weapon? Like if you are within range of the enemy, make a melee attack. And in that, make melee a chain and last hit gives initiative. That way, there is also an incentive to stay in melee for a short period after A/D skill 3.

[nopoet.2960]

Posted to wrong thread

Edited November 29, 2023 by nopoet.2960

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

axe dagger is bugged guys, doesn't port you behind the enemy the  axes miss so stick with a/p.   then play it as a 1800 ranged weapon not a 900 one. the range is 900 for thrown axes but its also 900 from stationary

 

[Omega.6801]

Hi, I didn't check if it wass mentioned already so here we go...

It's just a minor thing and it has to do with the animations of the axe skills. When using a legendary axe, you get the projectile effect upon throwing and upon retrieving but there's no special effect while spinning. From necromancer axe 2 we know, that the animation for a spinning axe using the equiped axe skin exists. So can we please get the same animation for the spinning axes on thief.

Thanks.

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

axe dagger is bugged guys, doesn't port you behind the enemy the  axes miss so stick with a/p.   then play it as a 1800 ranged weapon not a 900 one. the range is 900 for thrown axes but its also 900 from stationary

 

So, wait, you can throw the axes 900 towards the enemy, then activate the a/p dual skill and they'll cover the rest of the distance? That's hilarious! 🤣

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

So, wait, you can throw the axes 900 towards the enemy, then activate the a/p dual skill and they'll cover the rest of the distance? That's hilarious! 🤣

yes. wherever axes are is irrelevant to where you are. if you can click the enemy and they are within 900 from stationary axes... you can be right at beginning of being able to click on them to target them and hit em nearly across the map. you are essentially a mortar that reaches further than mortar kit, ranger, deadeye

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

yes. wherever axes are is irrelevant to where you are. if you can click the enemy and they are within 900 from stationary axes... you can be right at beginning of being able to click on them to target them and hit em nearly across the map. you are essentially a mortar that reaches further than mortar kit, ranger, deadeye

It would be cutting the damage down because each axe only gets to hit once, but that's the price to be paid for ultra-long-range I guess. Could also potentially start placing axes in advance if you know which direction they're going to be.

[ZvolTx.3165]

34 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It would be cutting the damage down because each axe only gets to hit once, but that's the price to be paid for ultra-long-range I guess. Could also potentially start placing axes in advance if you know which direction they're going to be.

This is exactly what I've been doing to good success. Staying beyond max range, setting up axes, letting people push then activating a/p 3 for massive spikes while being completely out of range. It's very much a trapping/set-up type weapon 

[Twilightmage.8309]

I really like the feel of the axes so far, i just hope they do more power damage because i really want to use them with rifle for aoe. The setup and pull through is cool, just not much damage on power.

[Khlori.6209]

Kinda disappointed you can stack only 6 floaty axes, hoped a little for ability to stack large amount of them and then huge nuke.

but that would be hard to balance I guess   🗿

[Scorcher.6428]

Some feedback.

Honestly, the weapons play alright aside from some bugs(like teleport not going behind) and I like the gimmick of sending axes and having them home in on you or another player.
These are some of the negatives imo.

• High init cost, can Specter even utilize this properly?
• Very narrow cleave if this was meant to fill the lack of ranged (condi) cleave
• A/D 3 seems like an improved version of Shadow Shot(making shadow shot kind of meh?)
• Yet another condi weapon
• Yet again no off hand
• No supporting capability
• Telekinetic Axes is a very bizarre flavour to grant to Thief? Seems like it doesn't fit

Seeing gaps for other classes finally getting filled with these new weapons, like Warrior as a prime example, leaves a bit of a sour taste. Considering Thief still has gaps in decent ranged cleave(I'm still not sure if I would consider this a decent cleave weapon?) primarily for power now and a supporting off-hand to complement Sceptre.
If they want to give Thief a bit of ranged cleave/pierce, just put it on pistol like so many have already asked for? (Ever since I heard about ricochet I feel sad I never got to experience it!)
This class could really go for another weapon set to enable supporting game play, and could have EASILY been achieved by getting an off-hand weapon(also something many Thief enjoyers would have liked to see).

Consider; with a new off-hand weapon, could still go with axe or maybe focus, we get Sceptre+ which would bolster support Thief gaming, the dual wield granting some boon/heal capabilities .  Pistol+ for ranged condi cleave. Dagger+/Sword+ for 600/900 ranged power cleave/utility shenanigans.
All of these combinations can fill many gaps Thief still has in their current kit.
Anet could still go with the telekinetic axes if they really like it for Thief. 
If they went with OH Focus, it could be more shadow arts/magic related to suit the Thief flavour better.

This is all my personal opinion as a Thief main, don't expect others to feel the same way. I just felt really deflated hearing we get MH Axe, then seeing yet another condi damage focused weapon, and very little to fill in any of what Thief lacks.
TLDR; new off-hand would have given all playstyles and weapon sets way more gameplay options, while simultaneously filling out what Thief is missing. Therefore what we got feels like a let down.