Are we really comfortable paying for unfinished expansions?

[enigmatic.3576]

1 hour ago, Solvar.7953 said:

And I think that is where some of the 'is $25' a fair price comes from

What if you compare it to HoT and PoF?

[Puck.3697]

5 hours ago, Tanuki.4603 said:

Its an absurd amount compared to GW2, one patch is way more content than entire soto with 4 updates, they get tons of cosmetics available ingame, tons of customization, meaningful storylines. the story is 10 hours of gameplay + raid and side quests twice the amount of that

It's absurd a game that charges over 2x the box price with a active monthly sub, has more development? 

It's amazing that a game that has a income source that doesn't depend on micro transactions doesnt exclude things alike cosmetics to the store?

To play WoW costs 4x more then guild wars so yah it should have 4x more content, this is obvious logic lol. 

 

[Nexterror.7180]

This is not an expansion by any means. This is a half done living world season, full of reused assets. It's good that some people are having fun with it. But it is what it is.

[Puck.3697]

7 minutes ago, enigmatic.3576 said:

What if you compare it to HoT and PoF

With HoT and PoF, u basically bought a elite specc, with a story and then optional content over a duration of time. 

SoTo isnt that far different realistically, its just not all dropped at once, and intended to be a yearly expansion instead of 2. 

HoT and PoF had to drop content to last 2 years SoTo is designed to be one, so the concept its half a expansion in size kinda makes sense,

Also, I'd argue HoT and PoF were under priced lol. Its easy to get up and critise the concept. However, realistically GW2 is insanely cheap. And jm afraid u kinda get what you pay for. 

To play WoW or ffxiv ur looking at substantial increases to how much is required to pay to play. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Puck.3697

[enigmatic.3576]

34 minutes ago, Puck.3697 said:

With HoT and PoF, u basically bought a elite specc, with a story and then optional content over a duration of time. 

SoTo isnt that far different realistically, its just not all dropped at once, and intended to be a yearly expansion instead of 2. 

HoT and PoF had to drop content to last 2 years SoTo is designed to be one, so the concept its half a expansion in size kinda makes sense,

Also, I'd argue HoT and PoF were under priced lol. Its easy to get up and critise the concept. However, realistically GW2 is insanely cheap. And jm afraid u kinda get what you pay for. 

To play WoW or ffxiv ur looking at substantial increases to how much is required to pay to play. 

SotO is an expansion with two maps and a map released gradually across three releases.  HoT/PoF were expansions with four to five maps with a map on each subsequent release.  They are fairly different, as across two SotO-like expansion cycles, we miss out on four maps.  That is a lot of content.

Edited November 10, 2023 by enigmatic.3576

[Puck.3697]

30 minutes ago, enigmatic.3576 said:

SotO is an expansion with two maps and a map released gradually across three releases.  HoT/PoF were expansions with four to five maps with a map on each subsequent release.  They are fairly different, as across two SotO-like expansion cycles, we miss out on four maps.  That is a lot of content.

But SoTos a 1 year expansion if I'm correct in whst I've followed regarding things, 

So it'd be wild if it delkevered the same amount of content

[Mangoyami.2418]

6 hours ago, Tanuki.4603 said:

Now, wow released their 10.2 patch yesterday, skim thru this page linked below to see how much content they add:

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/dragonflight-patch-10-2-guardians-of-the-dream-overview

Its an absurd amount compared to GW2, one patch is way more content than entire soto with 4 updates, they get tons of cosmetics available ingame, tons of customization, meaningful storylines. the story is 10 hours of gameplay + raid and side quests twice the amount of that.

You're forgetting the virtual rent people have to pay between content releases to keep all their stuff.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

not really. I'll only pay for the next expansion if Mommy Dommy is integral part of it. Otherwise, no thanks.

[enigmatic.3576]

31 minutes ago, Puck.3697 said:

But SoTos a 1 year expansion if I'm correct in whst I've followed regarding things, 

So it'd be wild if it delkevered the same amount of content

You're missing what I'm saying.  SoTo is two maps and a map released in sections across three releases.  Two SotO-like expansion cycles would yield 6 maps while a single HoT/PoF expansion cycle would yield 10-11 maps within that same timeframe.

[Teknomancer.4895]

There are lots of numbers and comparisons getting thrown around, but I think that misses the point.

Is it really about how much stuff you get, or is it more about how much entertainment will you get from the new stuff? And don't think in terms of stuff, think in terms of time playing the game. How much do you realistically think you will enjoy the game?

I've bought plenty of games over the years that I thought looked good, then after I played for a couple hours I decided they weren't for me and uninstalled.

It's all subjective, so stop thinking like a kitten spreadsheet.

[Defias.1892]

7 hours ago, Tanuki.4603 said:

People have sour taste after this patch beacuse the story is less than old living world, we don't even get full map like old living world and strike got barely any work done besides a copypaste mechanic from a previous strike, and is extremely easy even for pug groups.  We've paid for an unfinished expansion without any feature and it only shows now how empty this patch will be, since we cannot even work further to progress our legendary armor like with the last patch, and the wait for the next update is twice as it was for this. Let's not forget the last fractal realease bugged for months with kittened up scaling as it was a scrapped strike.

Now, wow released their 10.2 patch yesterday, skim thru this page linked below to see how much content they add:

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/dragonflight-patch-10-2-guardians-of-the-dream-overview

Its an absurd amount compared to GW2, one patch is way more content than entire soto with 4 updates, they get tons of cosmetics available ingame, tons of customization, meaningful storylines. the story is 10 hours of gameplay + raid and side quests twice the amount of that.

 

Are we really comfortable with the current ANet approach being the right future for GW2? Paying for unifnished expansions that bring very little every 3-4 months? There has to be a better way to deliver content.

I play both games and this is such a dumb argument. You can't expect them to push out as much content as a multibillion dollar company that charges $15/month and $60 for expansions . For the amount of hours we put in to the game, yes, I think most people are okay with spending $25 on new content because we aren't spending $60 for the expansion and then another $15 monthly to access the content in the expansion like in WoW.  And with GW2 you aren't even obligated to pay any money, you can do alot of the endgame stuff with a F2P account, you can't say the same thing with WoW. If you don't like how it is, go back to WoW, you can come back to GW2 anytime because you aren't forced to pay a subscription for it.

 

2 hours ago, fatihso.7258 said:

Black Desert Online, another mmo which is b2p same as gw2. They don’t even charge for their expansions and they always deliver content and refine their game for past and future systems. 
 

gw2 is the only mmo out there that delivers the minimum content compared to any other mmo that’s relevant.

BDO is B2P in name only. It is P2W at heart, and the end-game grind is owned by whales that pour $5000+ into a broken RNG-based BiS endgame vertical progression system. That is completely opposite of GW2's horizontal progression system. BDO and most Asian MMOs work similar to Genshin Impact's system, where it monopolizes on predatory gambling behaviors and encourages P2W to fuel that future content. Again, that is not how GW2 is designed at its core.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Defias.1892

[enigmatic.3576]

7 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

There are lots of numbers and comparisons getting thrown around, but I think that misses the point.

Is it really about how much stuff you get, or is it more about how much entertainment will you get from the new stuff? And don't think in terms of stuff, think in terms of time playing the game. How much do you realistically think you will enjoy the game?

I've bought plenty of games over the years that I thought looked good, then after I played for a couple hours I decided they weren't for me and uninstalled.

It's all subjective, so stop thinking like a kitten spreadsheet.

Those two things tend to go together with some edge cases.  The more content there is, the longer you'll be playing the content.  When comparing two expansion cycles of like SotO to either HoT or PoF, there's a deficit of 4-5 maps worth of content.  You're not really going to make up that difference.

It's only subjective when you try to make it subjective.  It being "all subjective" is incorrect.

[Teknomancer.4895]

Then by that metric, Cleopatra was obviously the best film ever made. At over 4 hours long and easily the most expensive film of its era, it's got lots of big numbers. And numbers are all that matter, right?

You seem to have ignored this bit, so let me point it out again:

35 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

How much do you realistically think you will enjoy the game?

I've bought plenty of games over the years that I thought looked good, then after I played for a couple hours I decided they weren't for me and uninstalled.

Not every aspect of entertainment can or should be min-maxed.

[enigmatic.3576]

48 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Then by that metric, Cleopatra was obviously the best film ever made. At over 4 hours long and easily the most expensive film of its era, it's got lots of big numbers. And numbers are all that matter, right?

You seem to have ignored this bit, so let me point it out again:

Not every aspect of entertainment can or should be min-maxed.

Also said by you:

1 hour ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

And don't think in terms of stuff, think in terms of time playing the game.

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by enigmatic.3576
Re-read what I wrote and felt a little too aggressive

[Ashen.2907]

In the end comparisons being made will be subjective because even an attempt to apply an objective measure will be cast in subjectivity. Is 50 hours of boredom better than 10 hours of fun? Is more maps objectively better than fewer? The answer to either question is based on individual impression of the maps and the content provided.

[Balsa.3951]

8 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

GW2 is B2P.  You don't need the latest to still enjoy the game.  With no vertical progression, you can choose to purchase the new content or not and you really won't lose anything.

game has vertical progression now. let's not lie to ourselves

[Doggie.3184]

Not really but since fans pretty much have no choice if we want to keep playing it's easy to be taken advantage of. I certainly wish things could be better.

Selling unfinished products is pretty much the state of gaming industry now. Unless you're a god like Larian Studios.

[Stx.4857]

$25 a YEAR for the amount of content we’ve gotten so far plus the upcoming weapons and everything in Q3?  Yea I’m comfortable paying that.  Still the most affordable quality MmO on the market.  

[Zephire.8049]

I still haven't bought SotO and played <5 hours since July because I can't abide what they're doing now. Pre-orders are bad enough but selling something that comes out piecemeal and delayed enough so that refunds or charge backs are no longer an option is worse and far scummier. There was never any guarantee that SotO's story or content would actually hold up and be on par with Living World seasons, let alone feature-complete expansions—instead of waiting a couple days/weeks to see what the consensus is, it's wait a year or so until it's complete.

Maybe it will be like LW4 where it's much better if you can play it in one continuous streak instead of waiting for each segment, but I'm not going to pay for that experience and disagree with the decision to sell it at all on a "Trust Me Bro™" marketing spiel. If they want money, going back to the quality of LW3 and 4 (minus the mess that was individual releases) and charging for the individual episodes would be better that SotO's design. That way it's even cheaper and people can decide whether something is worth it without waiting a year.

[BlueJin.4127]

While I do regret buying SotO 6 months before the addition of Obsidian legendary armors, GW2 isn't a sub based MMO like WoW, so I'm not really losing out on anything substantial by not having all contents on release day.

I'm more concerned about the lack of enough quality contents (rifts... yuck) than content delivery method.

Edited November 13, 2023 by BlueJin.4127

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Well, I wasn't.  So, I didn't get it.  Well, It is more that I refused to buy SotO in protest of the content in EoD.  SotO isn't off the table, but I'm going to wait for the whole thing to come out first.  Check the content then, and see if the devs still hate me.  

I do think the comparison to WoW isn't an apt one.  Everyone else is already debating the minutia of pricing and content models.  But consider that the practice of buying an expansion sight unseen can be judged on its own, and doesn't need a comparison to anybody else.  

[Puck.3697]

6 hours ago, enigmatic.3576 said:

You're missing what I'm saying.  SoTo is two maps and a map released in sections across three releases.  Two SotO-like expansion cycles would yield 6 maps while a single HoT/PoF expansion cycle would yield 10-11 maps within that same timeframe

Are you including living world story maps in this, as that'd be largely unfair, as these don't actually come with the cost of a expansion, but a additional cost, while SoTo isnt charging anyone anything additional? 

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, Balsa.3951 said:

game has vertical progression now. let's not lie to ourselves

How exactly? 

[Balsa.3951]

5 minutes ago, Puck.3697 said:

How exactly? 

jade bot is a obvious one

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

- With EoD and SotO, we finally have shorter waiting-times. They also keep us busy with more filler-events.
- Balancing, while not being piece of cake for everyone as usual, also got drastically changed over the past years.
- WvW is no longer a meme, though progress is significantly slower compared to PvE.
- In addition, they are focusing on QOL changes and go for the most common player-requests.

On the other hand, we have a 'low' price, depending on what you have picked. We do not know how big ANet is at the moment, but I doubt the studio has too many staff-members right now, rather the opposite. With the Wizard's Vault, they have sacrificed a lot of possible income from the Gemstore - again the VW is a combination of several player-requests over the years.

They are focusing on a wider target-audience now and neglect the specialists. This means that challenging hardcore content is not in their current plan. We get mediocre difficulty, HP-sponges and challenge-modes which increase the difficulty not beyond a certain level. The balancing is more compatible to more players, though the top-tier elite may see very little reward to run a high APM build when a LI-build can easily reach 40k. The combat-system gets simplified, so it is easier to understand for more people without a phd in build-crafting. The loot is less generous and we get more money-sinks to keep the economy at bay.

Looking a the whole, I think the game is in a good state. I do have my problems with certain elements. But I think this approach in general is a good investment in the future of this game.