Pure salt : paticipation

[Dovahkiin from HighRock.46]

"I" am defending but lose my point, no participation is taken only loss.  Why should I defend ?

The best way to earn points and money is : buses running around in circles "striking wood" (PvE) in the worst boring way... Thanks for the wonderful mechanics ArenaNet. Alliances will change everything ? yes yes yes. Should I say in a Skritt way

[geist.4126]

What confuses me with the participation mechanic is that it still goes down when you have group fights and people just survive. You have to land a kill for your participation to stop dropping. I mean you may be fighting off a boonball and actively defending your base and nothing is dying and still you drop participation

[Luranni.9470]

44 minutes ago, geist.4126 said:

What confuses me with the participation mechanic is that it still goes down when you have group fights and people just survive. You have to land a kill for your participation to stop dropping. I mean you may be fighting off a boonball and actively defending your base and nothing is dying and still you drop participation

It's one of the reasons I think downed mechanic is bad for competitive... In other games (or the no-downed state events anet forgot about) - in any big battle something on all sides dies and even the losers get something. But with downed mechanic, mass F spam, npc 5-player rallies and res signets etc, the winning side generally wont have many full deads so the losers get absolutely nothing for their time.  This seems in keeping with general anet direction on wvw in general tbfh, keep on buffing the blob for just turning up.

[Dawdler.8521]

14 minutes ago, Luranni.9470 said:

It's one of the reasons I think downed mechanic is bad for competitive... In other games (or the no-downed state events anet forgot about) - in any big battle something on all sides dies and even the losers get something. But with downed mechanic, mass F spam, npc 5-player rallies and res signets etc, the winning side generally wont have many full deads so the losers get absolutely nothing for their time.  This seems in keeping with general anet direction on wvw in general tbfh, keep on buffing the blob for just turning up.

Being downed isnt dead. It's as simple as that. You may think you "deserved" that kill but you didnt. Because you didnt kill. You failed. You're not rewarded for failure.

Anyway, the best defense is a good offense. It keeps the enemy busy and it keeps them split up. It also keeps tiers lower which keep PPT lower. Technically, you dont need to defend anything to win - you just need to keep taking more of their objectives than they keep taking from you.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Gotejjeken.1267]

8 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Being downed isnt dead.

Should be.

But let's face it, there are crappy non-scaling rewards for killing too.  Get that same heavy lootbag whether I'm actively 2v1'ing in the field or just blobbing around hitting 1.  

There is no skill in WvW.  

[kash.9213]

3 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Should be.

But let's face it, there are crappy non-scaling rewards for killing too.  Get that same heavy lootbag whether I'm actively 2v1'ing in the field or just blobbing around hitting 1.  

There is no skill in WvW.  

Finish the downed player and they will be. No Down State events are already way less engaging and either sloppy or overwhelming depending on your side. Have fun with that boon ball when they adjust permanently for that new baseline. 

[geist.4126]

You don't finish a downed player in a boonball if you aren't in a boonball yourself or outnumber them massively.

[kash.9213]

18 minutes ago, geist.4126 said:

You don't finish a downed player in a boonball if you aren't in a boonball yourself or outnumber them massively.

People in these threads really overselling boon balls. The rare one that can hold up against any kind effort for more than like five minutes doesn't warrant the indestructible label. The unfortunate thing is, too many people try to square up and faceplant them blob to blob. They're as good as the time zone that's logged in at the moment is overwhelmingly uninterested. 

If we're trying hype up boon balls as some kind of Thanos, can we stop claiming cloud servers like Mag are ruining everyone's life? 

[TheGrimm.5624]

Still wouldn't mind some adjusted downstate rules test weeks. Won't list all of those variations out since that's for another thread but I think they would be worth some tries. 

[Chips.7968]

3 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Being downed isnt dead. It's as simple as that. You may think you "deserved" that kill but you didnt. Because you didnt kill. You failed. You're not rewarded for failure.

Anyway, the best defense is a good offense. It keeps the enemy busy and it keeps them split up. It also keeps tiers lower which keep PPT lower. Technically, you dont need to defend anything to win - you just need to keep taking more of their objectives than they keep taking from you.

I've had fights 3vs1 and I manage to down 2. But I can't quite stop the 3rd from ressing because they're an absolute tank, i can't interrupt, and the downed mechanics of the other 2 prevent it.

Yes, I deserve *nothing*. I didn't do *anything* in that fight. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Chips.7968

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Chips.7968 said:

I've had fights 3vs1 and I manage to down 2. But I can't quite stop the 3rd from ressing because they're an absolute tank, i can't interrupt, and the downed mechanics of the other 2 prevent it.

Yes, I deserve *nothing*. I didn't do *anything* in that fight. 

So you failed to stomp them. Yes, that's a failure. Combat isnt just the damage needed to roflstomp 1v3. It's actually finishing them.

Per Anets definition, you didnt even participate in WvW.

What did you expect?

Edited November 17, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Gotejjeken.1267]

9 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

People in these threads really overselling boon balls. The rare one that can hold up against any kind effort for more than like five minutes doesn't warrant the indestructible label. The unfortunate thing is, too many people try to square up and faceplant them blob to blob. They're as good as the time zone that's logged in at the moment is overwhelmingly uninterested. 

If we're trying hype up boon balls as some kind of Thanos, can we stop claiming cloud servers like Mag are ruining everyone's life? 

Mag doesn't fight boonballs--they sit in keeps all day and/or 'cloud' around structures.  

Now, we've seen SPACE and such post 5-man destruction balls before, just running over pugs of 20+--where are the opposite videos of an equal or smaller force winning by skill and not boons? 

11 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Finish the downed player and they will be. 

This is way easier said than done if you aren't stealth stomping on a thief.  Of course if you have massive disenage potential + stealth you can stomp---the rest of us have some issues with this even with stability if the enemy knows how to CC.  Been in enough outnumbered to tell you how annoying a single ele mist forming away from a stomp is when another 2+ people are beating on you or trying to rez.  

[Netrizhul.3429]

Downstate wouldn't be this much problem if downed players didn't have TRIPLE amount of base health. Yes you heard right, you are tankier when you reach to death...

[TheGrimm.5624]

33 minutes ago, Netrizhul.3429 said:

Downstate wouldn't be this much problem if downed players didn't have TRIPLE amount of base health. Yes you heard right, you are tankier when you reach to death...

This is a pretty core part of the problem as well as the condi's that are applied before down are cleared when downed. This is another of the tests that might be interesting to test. This seems to be a PvE element that was carried over to WvW and creates some questions in group sizes. Two tests this example, don't increase HP and two don't clear condis. 

[Gorani.7205]

It took only three posts to turn this into another "I don't like downstate" debate. Good job forum dwellers.

On topic: Stopping participation decline while engaged in combat has been suggested several times in the past. I consider it a win for the many compared to the evil of a dew people staying in combat with a an "willing enemy" in a corner of the map. But we all know what ANet has done with community concerns and input the past years ...

[psizone.8437]

28 minutes ago, Gorani.7205 said:

It took only three posts to turn this into another "I don't like downstate" debate. Good job forum dwellers.

Can we go for the trifecta? 

Stealth needs nerfed! Celestial is OP!

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

On 11/17/2023 at 8:29 AM, geist.4126 said:

What confuses me with the participation mechanic is that it still goes down when you have group fights and people just survive. You have to land a kill for your participation to stop dropping. I mean you may be fighting off a boonball and actively defending your base and nothing is dying and still you drop participation

This is to prevent exploits.  Otherwise, you'll have minstrel revs wander off in pairs to obscure parts of a map, turn on their toggles, and then AFK farm participation rewards for hours on end because they're "in combat" with each other.  It is quite annoying to have to secure the kill, but it is better than the alternative.  

[Solvar.7953]

Anet could probably come up with some logic to prevent AFK participation farming - if the same group of people are exchanging damage for longer than X time, they stop getting participation.  Or if the battle is happening in the same area (players not moving much), participation stops.  AFK farming is the only real issue, because there really isn't any way to prevent active play farming (people run from base camp and meet and kill each other, and survivor then runs someplace near the other persons spawn so that person can kill them in return)

I don't think the current participation system is that good (I'm better off not taking part in a battle I don't think I can win).  But I don't really have a better situation, other than to make it purely objective driven (which then might make teams even less and effectively just constantly swap stuff on the map).

Maybe if you got a couple minutes of participation if you were killed by another player?  I can't see how that will get abused by AFK farmers, but would at least give some incentive to take part in fights where one is not sure of the outcome.  Though I imagine then, you might just get players kamikazing into enemies to get that minor participation.

 

[Curennos.9307]

15 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

This is to prevent exploits.  Otherwise, you'll have minstrel revs wander off in pairs to obscure parts of a map, turn on their toggles, and then AFK farm participation rewards for hours on end because they're "in combat" with each other.  It is quite annoying to have to secure the kill, but it is better than the alternative.  

Won't this make swords show up on the map? Not 100% sure how those work, but if it did, trying to do that would just draw some thief over there to see what's up. Help the community police itself.

[Chaba.5410]

16 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

This is to prevent exploits.  Otherwise, you'll have minstrel revs wander off in pairs to obscure parts of a map, turn on their toggles, and then AFK farm participation rewards for hours on end because they're "in combat" with each other.  It is quite annoying to have to secure the kill, but it is better than the alternative.  

These are the guys that join Mad King's Labyrinth on their support herald pumping out boons and standing around while other players try to at least push buttons to kill the dang NPCs.  Probably what the OP did...

Edited November 19, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

29 minutes ago, Curennos.9307 said:

Won't this make swords show up on the map? Not 100% sure how those work

Orange swords appear on a map when there are 25 or more players in an area in combat.  The players don't have to all be on the same side to count.

[blp.3489]

18 hours ago, Solvar.7953 said:

Anet could probably come up with some logic to prevent AFK participation farming

How about you get your participation extended by a small amount of time when you do a significant amount of damage to a player while keeping a list of the last five players you got participation from, and you don't get further participation from engaging those players.  Clear players from the list after some period of time long enough to minimize exploitation.  You could also extend the participation of the player receiving the damage, perhaps again keeping a list of the most recent players you got an extension from.

Naturally, players using stealth are excluded from gaining this type of participation, maybe for N seconds before and after using stealth. 😉

 

[kash.9213]

On 11/17/2023 at 9:18 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Mag doesn't fight boonballs--they sit in keeps all day and/or 'cloud' around structures.  

Now, we've seen SPACE and such post 5-man destruction balls before, just running over pugs of 20+--where are the opposite videos of an equal or smaller force winning by skill and not boons? 

This is way easier said than done if you aren't stealth stomping on a thief.  Of course if you have massive disenage potential + stealth you can stomp---the rest of us have some issues with this even with stability if the enemy knows how to CC.  Been in enough outnumbered to tell you how annoying a single ele mist forming away from a stomp is when another 2+ people are beating on you or trying to rez.  

We've been fighting mag for like three matches straight. They haven't been doing that. Maybe our boon balls just aren't very scary though. 

[Gorani.7205]

On 11/19/2023 at 6:33 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

This is to prevent exploits.  Otherwise, you'll have minstrel revs wander off in pairs to obscure parts of a map, turn on their toggles, and then AFK farm participation rewards for hours on end because they're "in combat" with each other.  It is quite annoying to have to secure the kill, but it is better than the alternative.  

But wouldn't more players have more game play options not dedicated to a direct kill (holding out at the lord, scouting, building a sneaky siege to aid a planned attack or attack on two fronts etc.) than the few exploiters that always find a way to sneak past boundaries? 

21 hours ago, Solvar.7953 said:

Anet could probably come up with some logic to prevent AFK participation farming - if the same group of people are exchanging damage for longer than X time, they stop getting participation.  Or if the battle is happening in the same area (players not moving much), participation stops.  AFK farming is the only real issue, because there really isn't any way to prevent active play farming (people run from base camp and meet and kill each other, and survivor then runs someplace near the other persons spawn so that person can kill them in return)

I don't think the current participation system is that good (I'm better off not taking part in a battle I don't think I can win).  But I don't really have a better situation, other than to make it purely objective driven (which then might make teams even less and effectively just constantly swap stuff on the map).

Maybe if you got a couple minutes of participation if you were killed by another player?  I can't see how that will get abused by AFK farmers, but would at least give some incentive to take part in fights where one is not sure of the outcome.  Though I imagine then, you might just get players kamikazing into enemies to get that minor participation.

 

One of many ideas that have been given since the "walls don't give participation" patch (that clearly showed how broken the registration for defense events is and makes people actively chose "I'm better off not taking part in a battle I don't think I can win". The main issue is ... please correct me if I am wrong and please link the source/quote below ... that no ANet official as replied to concerned posts and admitted that there is a serious defense event problem and whether they try to fix it in any way or form.

[XenesisII.1540]

22 hours ago, Solvar.7953 said:

Anet could probably come up with some logic to prevent AFK participation farming

They can't even solve afk wall running, you expect them to figure this out?

Participation is not a problem at all when you're active in wvw.

Edited November 20, 2023 by XenesisII.1540