Armed with Dual Pistols, Guardians Rain Down Bullets of Justice!

[draxynnic.3719]

10 hours ago, Kanaima.2546 said:

"Notably, this projectile pierces through enemies, allowing it to hit up to five targets. Many of the other skills on this weapon set act in a similar way, allowing users to attack multiple enemies with the correct positioning."

"...let’s look at another skill on the off-hand pistol, Hail of Justice. As you may have surmised from the name, this skill fires a volley of piercing projectiles at your targeted foe, each one inflicting bleeding and cripple on up to five enemies."

That's what I get for posting at 6am after being woken up by the cats, I guess. We'll see just how many there are when we see the full skill list. I think my comment that piercing is not the equivalent of Ricochet holds, though.

I am raising a mental eyebrow at them saying that the auto can hit five targets - that's something they seem to be normalising out of autos on other professions, including autos that would make much more sense to be able to hit multiple targets.

[Sagedurk.7358]

5 hours ago, Balsa.3951 said:

nah its new so it's gonna be over powererd. at least for a year. anet always op new stuff to sell expansions

So that's why Willbender has always had issues? Because new = OP?

Or are you talking about non-PvE modes? Cause in PvE, Willbender has never been OP.

It also has design issues; 2 GM traits solely to give alac in the first place, OH sword going against the design of WB multihitting, Physicals being garbage.

No idea how Firebrand performed in non-PvE on its release, but I haven't heard good things about FB regarding non-PvE

 

Now, for the actual topic at hand, we only have 2 condi weapons on Guardian in total. Until recently, Firebrand had one of them exclusively. 1 main hand, 1 off hand.

Axe, and torch. Torch 4 is awkward on Firebrand, and Willbender doesn't even use Axe. We need more variety.

The pistols better not be underperforming, I don't want another OH sword situation.

[Bloodtau.4672]

Playing Engi main since launch, Guardian sure tempts me with each expansion

[psizone.8437]

1 hour ago, Sagedurk.7358 said:

Or are you talking about non-PvE modes? Cause in PvE, Willbender has never been OP.

In WvW Willbender is one of the most complained about specs because of how strong it can be.

 

 

1 hour ago, Sagedurk.7358 said:

No idea how Firebrand performed in non-PvE on its release, but I haven't heard good things about FB regarding non-PvE

Firebrand has been meta in WvW comps since it came out. It hasn't left it's spot of being a top 3 needed spec in a zerg.

 

 

1 hour ago, Sagedurk.7358 said:

Willbender doesn't even use Axe. We need more variety.

Celestial Willbenders in WvW use Axe.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Just based on the previews the numbers would have to be really undertuned for them to be bad I think. 

[psizone.8437]

Just now, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Just based on the previews the numbers would have to be really undertuned for them to be bad I think. 

Surprise, 0.5 seconds of burning!

[Trejgon.9367]

1 hour ago, psizone.8437 said:

Surprise, 0.5 seconds of burning!

0,25 base cause they expect all condi guardians to run +100% burning duration 😉

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Sagedurk.7358 said:

No idea how Firebrand performed in non-PvE on its release, but I haven't heard good things about FB regarding non-PvE

Firebrand support was so broken on release that playing any other guardian build in sPvP was almost trolling because it increased the chance that the enemy team had a support firebrand and yours didn't, which wasn't quite a might-as-well-resign-there-and-then scenario, but was pretty close.

What happened about a year or so in was a textbook case of what I call balance perception inertia - the tendency of people to not believe something that was once really OP or UP has actually been brought into balance until the pendulum has swung too far the other way. There was a point at which support firebrand was probably actually balanced - but during that period, people continued to blame losses on the idea that firebrand was still overpowered and kept demanding nerfs. It came to the point where support firebrand was generally agreed to be dead by the people who actually played guardian, but there was a bruisery firebrand build that was still hanging on (symbolbrand, I think it was called)... and people kept complaining when they lost to a "support build" that wasn't actually built for support, and the nerfs kept coming. The nerfs didn't stop until it had reached the point where they were pretty much viewed as free kills by players in gold or above.

Edited November 18, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

Guardian haters can whine about Pistols all they want.
They did the same for Longbow pre-SoTO, where are the complaints about Longbow now?
Oh, thats right, it ISN'T OP.

The beta hasn't even dropped yet...kitten.

[Arken.3725]

12 hours ago, Balsa.3951 said:

nah its new so it's gonna be over powererd. at least for a year. anet always op new stuff to sell expansions

Guarantee you it won't.  Here's proof:

- Off-hand sword is a terrible weapon not even utilized in the easiest mode in the game, PvE

- Axe MH wasn't even utilized as a support build for FB when it came out

Guardian as a whole, has terrible weaponry overall and I can say with absolute confidence that there isn't a single weapon right now that is "complete".

Great Sword:  Tracking issue's on Binding Blade and Leap of faith, useless symbol.

Sword MH:  Zealot's defense tracking issue's with it rooting you.

Long Bow:  Deflecting shot too slow, symbol useless.

Axe:  Everything too slow, long cd's, useless symbol.

Mace:  Bugged out Protector's Strike that doesn't trigger at random times, useless symbol, slow auto-attack

Scepter:  Worst tracking Auto's, useless symbol.

Off-hand Sword:  #4 is absolutely terrible in both design and damage output.

Focus:  Long cd's, boring design with no utility.

Torch:  Terrible tracking, never been utilized.

Hammer:  Everything....seriously....everything.

With a history this bad of weaponry, one can conclude that pistols will be terrible as well.

[Nero.7369]

Nice a ranged condi weapon! 🙂

Animations
Hello Engineer Pistol Animations 😄
I like it, adepted perfectly to the blue class animation wise.
The Charged Shot Animation looks dope

Gameplay Design
Piercing yay 🙂

Symbol - Might be questionable to place the symbol below the guard and not below the target. Could also create an interesting interaction tho in a competitve environment. Not sure if you worded the skill 3 projectilbehavior just strange and this is just a fire combofield with the additional effect that it will also pulse burn when comboed. Or all sort of projectils will inflict burn now.  I guess this will be just a combo field and we get some 100% projectil combo finishers.

Skill 5 - as dope as it looks, i really hope the slow charge is worth it! 😄

Really looking forward to get hands on these pistols.

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Nero.7369

[Batalix.2873]

12 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Guardian was never that - or more precisely, was never just that. One of the things that was apparent when guardian was first announced was that while you could build it as a paladin, it also encompassed other themes like the arcane knight concept. Fire and burning were also secondary themes in both monk and paragon, professions that lorewise combined to form the GW2 guardian (with some contribution from ritualist, and perhaps dervish as well).

Also, this is Guild Wars 2, a game that was advertised from the beginning as "bring the player, not the profession". While some of the other roles proved to be more complex to narrow down, a profession being defined as never having the ability to fill a DPS role was not going to happen.

Sure, but then why is it so difficult to build a non-fire Guardian? Why are the especs so many slight variations on non-choice?

And as for not filling a DPS role, Druid existed as a pure support espec for a long time, not to mention Herald and arguably Scrapper and Tempest. Inasmuch as a profession can just switch specializations, not every espec needed to be DPS-oriented and I think buildcraft and playstyle niches in the game have visibly suffered from a shift away from that design space. Most content in the game has such a low DPS check anyway it's not like support builds would have needed to do much DPS to clear.

"Bring the player, not the profession" is just one of several marketing euphemisms that I am coming to realize were either easily abandoned, or otherwise hiding really poor design principles. I don't think overtuning support and ranged build DPS is catering to any semblance of player skill; it's just making the game easier and more unidimensional. And I don't think that having all professions play along slight variations of DPS + support, and condensing skills into auto-boons, wells, and very similarly applied condi/ranged  damage is affording much meaningful choice in job fantasy. As others have said, the game is more and more like a "choose your color" autoattacker, and I would pinpoint FB as the start of this decline.

[Super Hayes.6890]

20 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I like how most of the complaining in this thread is coming from non guard mains whining about their profession not getting good stuff.

You are correct! That is the only reason I stopped by 🤣

[Loules.8601]

22 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Yeah but core guardian had like maybe 4 fire skills, and had a much more diverse identity: symbols, wards, shields, light magic, holy magic.

It was the defense tank. A protector. Nothing about this nor the prior few especs--especially Willbender--respected that. It's just all aggression now.

I'm one part disappointed that "burninating" is the popular conception of a protector class, and one part miffed that I couldn't get at least one espec that was a legit magic tank on Guardian. FB was close but FB should never have had the DPS capacity it did.

There's no really "light magic" or "holy magic" in Guild Wars 2 universe. IIRC the last time that we see "holy magic" - in GW1. After that some story reasons and no holy magic in GW2 at all. Blue fire of guardians - the closest thing to "holy magic" that they have right now. 

Blue fire was one of the main themes of guardian from the day-1. It was basically guardians only noticeable condition damage part (and virtue with fire). We have only 1 fire specialisation - Firebrand (and basically only in cDPS version). Willbender not connected to fire theme (so is DH). Yep, it has fire - like all other Guardian kit. Same as every weapon has symbols. 

I can understand that you don't like some spec choices by devs (I personally dislike DH) but saying that Guardian centred  around fire theme in recent times - plainly wrong. It's no more or less than it always was. We have cDPS version of Firebrand for fans of fire theme but even many (if not most) of FB support builds don't use fire book at all. Fire theme got it minute (years) of fame with cDPS FB and that's end for this, so you're massively exaggerating. 
About pistols and fire - one of noticeable features of Guardian: very limited number of damaging conditions. Somewhat rare bleed and burning (in which Guardian probably strongest in the game). So it's not like we have a big amount of choices for design of condi weapons. Pistols around bleeding not sounds very Guardian-like so here we are. I can't understand what are you expecting in this particular situation. 

[Batalix.2873]

51 minutes ago, Loules.8601 said:

There's no really "light magic" or "holy magic" in Guild Wars 2 universe. IIRC the last time that we see "holy magic" - in GW1. After that some story reasons and no holy magic in GW2 at all. Blue fire of guardians - the closest thing to "holy magic" that they have right now. 

Blue fire was one of the main themes of guardian from the day-1. It was basically guardians only noticeable condition damage part (and virtue with fire). We have only 1 fire specialisation - Firebrand (and basically only in cDPS version). Willbender not connected to fire theme (so is DH). Yep, it has fire - like all other Guardian kit. Same as every weapon has symbols. 

I can understand that you don't like some spec choices by devs (I personally dislike DH) but saying that Guardian centred  around fire theme in recent times - plainly wrong. It's no more or less than it always was. We have cDPS version of Firebrand for fans of fire theme but even many (if not most) of FB support builds don't use fire book at all. Fire theme got it minute (years) of fame with cDPS FB and that's end for this, so you're massively exaggerating. 
About pistols and fire - one of noticeable features of Guardian: very limited number of damaging conditions. Somewhat rare bleed and burning (in which Guardian probably strongest in the game). So it's not like we have a big amount of choices for design of condi weapons. Pistols around bleeding not sounds very Guardian-like so here we are. I can't understand what are you expecting in this particular situation. 

It kind of amazes me the semantic and logical hoop-jumping people do to try to justify how narrowed-down Guardian's aesthetic has been since launch.

Doesn't matter what I'm calling it, light magic, holy magic, healing magic, spirit magic, blinding magic, whatever. Whatever Guardian's aesthetic is: on Mace, on Staff, on Shield, on Hammer, on Greatsword, on 2 of its three virtues and most of its skills--It. Is. Not. Fire. Magic. A "wrathful" fire side to Guardian was always so slight compared it its much broader theming as a protector. It's in the freaking name: Guardian.

And frankly I just do not understand why people (a) enjoy a class that does virtually nothing but burn things and (b) have somehow convinced themselves that this is good, fun, varied design. It's fascinating, just how angry and single-minded Guardian's design has become, and yet Guardian players just can't get enough of that kit. Doesn't seem how many non-variations on "burning zealotry" you get, you eat that kit up.

And, you know what I would have expected, had this game actually adhered to design principles resembling core/HoT/PoF? No stupid edgelord pistols on the defense tank profession. No fire theming. Maybe something ward- or spirit-themed around a warhorn or OH mace. Just because most guardian players are basic libertarians who can't get enough of a very narrow Guardian = SWAT Police Dudes with Katanas fantasy doesn't mean the devs needed to give into that and gut Guardian's identity.

Good for you guys for having what you want, I guess, but from most perspectives what you all wanted and celebrate is garbo. Guardian hasn't been a Guardian since at least Dragon Hunter, if not earlier.

EDIT: Also claiming burning themes from GW1 is disingenuous. Monk had precisely ONE skill that inflicted burning, Ray of Judgment. Paragon had a few more skills: Anthem of Flame, Blazing Finale, Blazing Spear, Burning Refrain, Burning Shield, Holy Spear, and Glowing Signet, but honestly there isn't much Paragon in either Guardian or Warrior outside of shouts. Arguably Warrior's banners and icon take more from Paragon than anything Guardian has.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, Nero.7369 said:

Symbol - Might be questionable to place the symbol below the guard and not below the target. Could also create an interesting interaction tho in a competitve environment. Not sure if you worded the skill 3 projectilbehavior just strange and this is just a fire combofield with the additional effect that it will also pulse burn when comboed. Or all sort of projectils will inflict burn now.  I guess this will be just a combo field and we get some 100% projectil combo finishers.

They explained why the Symbol is being placed below to Guardian. I think it's the reasonable thing to do, as enemies may simply walk out of it, if it was placed below them.

And I think the symbol will still be a Light field, despite the Burning interactions with melee attacks and projectiles.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Twilightmage.8309]

i really hope it has decent power scaling as well. I want a fun ranged wep to pair with longbow. Scepter is too dang slow and staff isnt much of a power wep.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Does anyone remember Staff Guardian years ago with the burns before the range on staff nerf with vampire runes (again years before relics) in wvw?

 

This is going to be absolutely nerfed into the ground for this very reason lol. 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

5 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

It kind of amazes me the semantic and logical hoop-jumping people do to try to justify how narrowed-down Guardian's aesthetic has been since launch.

Doesn't matter what I'm calling it, light magic, holy magic, healing magic, spirit magic, blinding magic, whatever. Whatever Guardian's aesthetic is: on Mace, on Staff, on Shield, on Hammer, on Greatsword, on 2 of its three virtues and most of its skills--It. Is. Not. Fire. Magic. A "wrathful" fire side to Guardian was always so slight compared it its much broader theming as a protector. It's in the freaking name: Guardian.

And frankly I just do not understand why people (a) enjoy a class that does virtually nothing but burn things and (b) have somehow convinced themselves that this is good, fun, varied design. It's fascinating, just how angry and single-minded Guardian's design has become, and yet Guardian players just can't get enough of that kit. Doesn't seem how many non-variations on "burning zealotry" you get, you eat that kit up.

And, you know what I would have expected, had this game actually adhered to design principles resembling core/HoT/PoF? No stupid edgelord pistols on the defense tank profession. No fire theming. Maybe something ward- or spirit-themed around a warhorn or OH mace. Just because most guardian players are basic libertarians who can't get enough of a very narrow Guardian = SWAT Police Dudes with Katanas fantasy doesn't mean the devs needed to give into that and gut Guardian's identity.

Good for you guys for having what you want, I guess, but from most perspectives what you all wanted and celebrate is garbo. Guardian hasn't been a Guardian since at least Dragon Hunter, if not earlier.

EDIT: Also claiming burning themes from GW1 is disingenuous. Monk had precisely ONE skill that inflicted burning, Ray of Judgment. Paragon had a few more skills: Anthem of Flame, Blazing Finale, Blazing Spear, Burning Refrain, Burning Shield, Holy Spear, and Glowing Signet, but honestly there isn't much Paragon in either Guardian or Warrior outside of shouts. Arguably Warrior's banners and icon take more from Paragon than anything Guardian has.

I miss my RoJ monk in gw1 "Can of Raid". I membah in HA RoJ groups? I membah

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

They explained why the Symbol is being placed below to Guardian. I think it's the reasonable thing to do, as enemies may simply walk out of it, if it was placed below them.

And I think the symbol will still be a Light field, despite the Burning interactions with melee attacks and projectiles.

Making it ground-targeted would give the player the opportunity to make that call. As described, it sounds like a significant portion of the weapon's power budget is going to be assuming the target is in the symbol. I'd also say that in many environments, putting the symbol at your feet is just as risky, since you might be the one who's forced off it. Heck, in PvE content, it's often more likely to be the player that has to move off the symbol than the enemy.

[draxynnic.3719]

10 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

EDIT: Also claiming burning themes from GW1 is disingenuous. Monk had precisely ONE skill that inflicted burning, Ray of Judgment. Paragon had a few more skills: Anthem of Flame, Blazing Finale, Blazing Spear, Burning Refrain, Burning Shield, Holy Spear, and Glowing Signet, but honestly there isn't much Paragon in either Guardian or Warrior outside of shouts. Arguably Warrior's banners and icon take more from Paragon than anything Guardian has.

Monk also had a skill that caused their ally-targeted spells to pulse fire around the target, and monk weapons were either light or fire, so an autoattacking monk in GW1 would often be flinging fire around. 'Holy fire' is a very common theme, and while guardians aren't drawing power from the gods, they are basically the 'cleric of a philosophy' concept. And as you might be aware, D&D clerics do have offensive spells as well.

A prerelease interview explained that the core of guardian was the merging of monk and paragon traditions. The actives of the core virtues, especially Justice, are essentially GW2 equivalents of paragon abilities. The link might not be as obvious as you think it should be because guardians stopped using spears and adopted other weapons instead, but guardian weapon skills are descendants of the magic-imbued spear skills of paragons.

Ultimately, it's one of GW2's design pillars that professions are broader than in most MMOs. You absolutely can make a defensive-focused guardian if you want to - there are several ways, in fact. If you want a game where the paladin archetype is purely a defensive tank, you are free to go and play one of the many MMOs out there that take that approach.

Edited November 19, 2023 by draxynnic.3719
Minor spelling error.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I'm hype to use pistols on my condi firebrand build. Axe is fun but having a ranged option is nice. 

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Making it ground-targeted would give the player the opportunity to make that call. As described, it sounds like a significant portion of the weapon's power budget is going to be assuming the target is in the symbol. I'd also say that in many environments, putting the symbol at your feet is just as risky, since you might be the one who's forced off it. Heck, in PvE content, it's often more likely to be the player that has to move off the symbol than the enemy.

Ground-targetted may be a solution, but if the choices only are "below me" or "below enemy", than "below me" is the superior option in this case. For people who want to fight in melee range, it makes little difference if the symbol is below them or the enemy. Meanwhile, for people who want to be at range, it's probably more beneficial to have it below themselves. There also are enemies who move around and are not unlikely to leave the symbol in doing so.

Players on the other hand (usually) possess enough brain cells to return to their symbol, if possible. If you can't easily remain on (or return) to your symbol, you probably have other things to consider than only doing as much damage as possible.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[draxynnic.3719]

6 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Ground-targetted may be a solution, but if the choices only are "below me" or "below enemy", than "below me" is the superior option in this case. For people who want to fight in melee range, it makes little difference if the symbol is below them or the enemy. Meanwhile, for people who want to be at range, it's probably more beneficial to have it below themselves. There also are enemies who move around and are not unlikely to leave the symbol in doing so.

Players on the other hand (usually) possess enough brain cells to return to their symbol, if possible. If you can't easily remain on (or return) to your symbol, you probably have other things to consider than only doing as much damage as possible.

I'm inclined to disagree here, mostly because from the description, there is a significant amount of damage coming out of the symbol (the symbol pulses burning when an enemy within the symbol is hit by the guardian - that might be limited to one stack per pulse, but one stack of burning per second, plus whatever baseline damage the symbol does, is a lot of potential damage to leave on the proverbial table). If you're in competitive, you're not likely to be able to afford to stay still to get the most out of the symbol to begin with. If you're playing in PvE, then a lot of the time, you're more concerned about having to dodge attacks and mechanics than the enemy moving as long as you employ some forethought on when you use the symbol. And the exceptions tend to be things like the mordrem/kryptis mounted chargers, stoneheads, and the like that move so far that you'd need to leave the symbol to chase them down anyway.

This is all rendered largely irrelevant, though, given that ground-targeted symbols on ranged guardian weapons isn't exactly groundbreaking technology. Just make the symbol ground-targeted like every other symbol on a ranged weapon. Best of both worlds, and even gives you the choice of placing the symbol in a third location altogether if that's more favourable for some reason.

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'm inclined to disagree here, mostly because from the description, there is a significant amount of damage coming out of the symbol (the symbol pulses burning when an enemy within the symbol is hit by the guardian - that might be limited to one stack per pulse, but one stack of burning per second, plus whatever baseline damage the symbol does, is a lot of potential damage to leave on the proverbial table).

If you are going to play in melee in PvE, you and the enemy are likely both being in the symbol anyway. So it doesn't matter, if the symbol spawned below you or the enemy.

If you are played ranged in PvE, the pulsing from hitting an enemy only matters ones the enemy closed in on you. This also means, the enemy (if it's a melee enemy) would have left the symbol, if it spawned below the enemy, Thus, having the symbol under you benefits you more.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

If you're in competitive, you're not likely to be able to afford to stay still to get the most out of the symbol to begin with.

I don't think they had much of competitive in mind when they designed the Pistols. Both WvW and sPvP feel like little more than afterthoughts since at least 2015.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

If you're playing in PvE, then a lot of the time, you're more concerned about having to dodge attacks and mechanics than the enemy moving as long as you employ some forethought on when you use the symbol. And the exceptions tend to be things like the mordrem/kryptis mounted chargers, stoneheads, and the like that move so far that you'd need to leave the symbol to chase them down anyway.

As I wrote above, if you can't easily remain on (or return) to your symbol, you probably have other things to consider than only doing as much damage as possible.

This includes playing around enemy mechanics and enemies running around/away a lot.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

This is all rendered largely irrelevant, though, given that ground-targeted symbols on ranged guardian weapons isn't exactly groundbreaking technology. Just make the symbol ground-targeted like every other symbol on a ranged weapon. Best of both worlds, and even gives you the choice of placing the symbol in a third location altogether if that's more favourable for some reason.

Just because it has been done before, doesn't mean they have to repeat it.

Also, not everyone likes ground-targetted abilities, so turning all Symbols into ground-targetting would inevitably reduce the fun of playing Guardian for some people.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Fueki.4753