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Expanded Weapon Proficiencies Beta Feedback: Necromancer


Rubi Bayer.8493

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"Frustrating", that basically sum up my feed back on the weapon skillset.

Edit: Let me argument why it's frustrating for the sake of the confused one.

The AA: Beyond it's buged state, the slow base attack speed make it a "feel bad" weapon just like greatsword. Furthermore, the heal on it is both a promise of an overpowered bunker potential and the shadow of futur well deserved nerfs as soon as the the buged state is fixed. In my opinion, there shouldn't be any heal on the AA, this need to be removed even before they fix the bugs.

The concept: While life cost is a wasteful and unnecessary addition to the necromancer, the concept itself is full of potential and attractiveness. The biggest issue here? The execution of the concept. To put it bluntly it's not rewarding. The weaponset is balanced around the fact that you will use the follow up skills and make the sacrifice whereas the other weapons will ultimately have the same effectiveness without any sacrifice.

Skills effects: We got leaps that aren't leap finishers, we got blasts that aren't blast finishers, we even got projectiles that aren't projectile finishers. We got a dark theme necromancer with many dark fields that's unable to gain dark aura.

Edited by Dadnir.5038
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My first feedback from wvw perspective after some duels:

AA is too slow and has no real impact:  the weapon aa cast was veeery slow and unrewarding, you can neither pressure ur opponent with that nor getting really much heal from it. aa rotation feels like 3 sec for whole rota, but the tooltip casttimes where like 1/2+1/2+3/4= 1,75 sec. maybe too much aftercast on the aa. aa projectiles misses the target very easily when the target wiggles a little in movement.

2nd spell: castspeed and dmg+ effects are fine for short cd spell. but the projectile very easily misses the target. should have a better hitrate on maxrange (better homing  or hitbox on projectile)

- the gorment spell has no real gain, so i usually just didnt used it. i dont see why i should anyway since gorment spells dmg is mediocre but cost hell of life. (hitting me harder then opponent)

3nd spell (leaps): the leap is helpful but in my tests vs a mesm, between all the blocks/invulns my opponent used it was hard to hit it. like 9 of 10 casts went into blocks because the animation is very clear and easy to counter. maybe the second leap should have an unblockable to have a real gain for reactivating this spell with higher hitchance on 2nd leap. imo spell would be better to use, if it wouldnt leap to a target but the leap target area would be like an aoe placed with the mouse (like new warrior staff 2 leap)

4th spell: way too long casttime. i lietrally eat the whole spike of my opponent while casting it. and the dmg+ impact ist mediocre. and the gorment reactivation skill just is the same with a little chill on it. why spend 2k life for it?

5th spell: nice idea with the fear on recast, but its like i cast this spell and have to wait like 1 secs before it reaches my opponent and then to recast it. in the meantime i cannot really cast another spell because casttimes on other spells are to long so i would miss my timewindow for recast. so in the end i am stuck for like 2 sec in that spell feels not that great.

overall sword has potential and a cool design but feels unrewarding by the dmg numbers and slow in cast.

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After further testing on the autoattack capabilities it is clear that the necessity of projectiles to hover above ground is a very BIG problem. This prevents a necromancer from attacking for example in wvw an enemy on a tower (even i case where for example with staff you could autoattack right from below near the wall) or attacking anything that is not connected on the same flat floor surface. This behavior happens with skill 2 and skill 5 too.

This is truly dishearting because it is something that can be tested in a very short time and I cannot believe you weren't aware of this.

If you have limited resources please fix this above anything else, because it makes the auto attack and skill 2 and 5 unsable in those conditions. Just rework the projectile to behave like a real projectile not a hovering wave, because if it can be tollerable on 2 and 5 on autoattack it is horrible. And any competent pvp/wvw player will use this against you making the entire weapon useless.

Also please take a look at skill 3 leaps it kinda seems there some delay/after cast that doesn't make it smooth enough. And on this skill flip skill should be avalaible right away for douple tap to get more distance. As i said before 450 range imo is short, at least make it 600 on flip skill so there some reward

Edited by NecroSummonsMors.7816
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Ideas for improving auto attack chain:

  • Make it a true projectile, not a ground-hovering wave.  This stops small changes in terrain from making the skill fail, let alone large ones.
  • Speed up the projectile.  This helps it land against moving targets as well as speeding up the chain, since each wave has to hit before the next attack can begin.
  • Change legendary projectiles for better visibility of the skill's hitbox.  Also, legendary sword skins currently bug this chain to let you perform the entire chain with no target.

Ideas for improving Ravenous Wave/Satiate:

  • Satiate is the big offender here.  It hits the necro harder than the target above 50% and below, it's still only matching Ravenous Wave's damage.  Not worth the health sacrifice.  Give this some additional benefit like a boon theft or a 1/4 second daze.  Failing that, make the damage equal to Ravenous Wave on targets above 50% and really make it hurt those below.

Ideas for improving Path of Gluttony/Gorge:

  • Best skills in the kit, but really feel like these belong on Dagger and Dark Pact belongs here.  Having leaps forward on a ranged weapon is a strange choice.
  • Make these Leap finishers.  It's absolutely a leap and Necro could use ways to actually finish in their fields.
  • Given the risky position you put yourself in to corrupt the boons, perhaps add in extra healing for each boon removed this way, like Signet of the Locust has.
  • Range on the leap, especially Gorge, could stand to be longer.
  • There's an inconsistent delay before being able to use Gorge.  No idea what's causing it, since out of combat, you can use them back to back without issue, but in combat, you frequently can't.

Ideas for improving Hungering Maelstrom/Gormandize:

  • The cast time for Hungering Maelstrom is excessive for what it does.  Either reduce to 1/2-3/4 seconds or add more to it than just damage.
  • Remove the short cooldown before you can start casting Gormandize.
  • Gormandize really needs a visual indicator it actually hit.  I can't see it in combat.
  • Gormandize could use something to really show the necro feasting or consuming.  Right now, they spend health to just...I dunno, throw the target into the fridge?  Major flavor fail with the skill design.  Maybe inflict a debuff where the Necro steals a portion of incoming healing to the targets?

Ideas for improving Consume (Sword 5 part 2):

  • Make it remove Stability and Resistance before applying the Fear.  This sets it up to being a counterpoint to Wail of Doom where one can't be blocked and the other can't be resisted.  This also brings good utility for WvW/PvP, which the weapon is sorely lacking.
  • Give the Necro a benefit for catching the return like Tides of Time on Chrono shield does.  Perhaps a large return of health and/or boons like Superspeed (to stay in range of fleeing foes) and Quickness (to capitalize on the window of opportunity).  The fear is very difficult to land on players, and even in PvE it's unreliable.
  • Make it instant cast.  You already had the cast time of Devouring Visage and the travel time.  Let it return at no cast time.  Players can clearly see the projectile they need to avoid.
Edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180
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1 hour ago, Zero.3871 said:

5th spell: nice idea with the fear on recast, but its like i cast this spell and have to wait like 1 secs before it reaches my opponent and then to recast it. in the meantime i cannot really cast another spell because casttimes on other spells are to long so i would miss my timewindow for recast. so in the end i am stuck for like 2 sec in that spell feels not that great.

Could borrow the mechanic from thief axes and have the wave persist in place for a few seconds rather than disappearing immediately at the end of its range, in order to provide a bit of margin for error with timing for calling it back.

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Honestly, I like it- it has issues that need to be ironed out, as others have mentioned (avoidable AA, damage numbers low, and I'd say that the health-cost doesn't feel justified). My main issue is that this feels like what dagger should have been - so is dagger going to be in limbo now? I really like dagger (even if it's just an AA and two skills), but with the release of sword/sword it'll feel very redundant.

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DW swords are okay for ranged AoE kiting. Needs more damage overall and some skills to be fields/finishers. I'd still probably use it as a secondary set for Reaper, but not much else.

The chill in the AA chain and on 4 2nd makes this a good ranged kiting weapon that combos off Chilling Nova.

2 feels really slow and weak, using it on targets below 50% should hurt, but the base damage under 50% is the same as 3 AND costs you life. Maybe have it leave a combo field behind or something?

3 on the other hand feels really good to use and even if you use it twice, you recoup the lost life. Should be a leap finisher. Then you could have 2 make a field and use 3 to leap.

4 is good. Would make for a tasty blast finisher.

5 works. 25 sec CD is a bit much, 20sec would be better.

 

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Auto attack chain should be a little bit faster. Especially the 3rd skill of the chain feels very slow. As well I think, a little bit increasing the dmg would be great. Additionally I would like to see vulnerability application with the chain.

Skill 2 feels a bitt underwhelming. The sacrifice option feels a bit weak and should generate some life force as well.

Skill 3. I dunno. I like the leap, but I dont unterstand the second leab for the sacrifice variant. Would like to see for the sacrifice variant a backward leap and a 0.5s evade frame.

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It feels like these were made with PVP in mind.  I don't know why I'd want a range weapon with a leap in PVE, it's like a sniper running up to you and sticking the barrel in your chest before firing.  The damage and utility wasn't very good for all the extra button presses you have to do and the flux your health is at.

Healing yourself before you harm yourself feels like putting the cart before the horse

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13 minutes ago, Echostorm.9143 said:

It feels like these were made with PVP in mind.  I don't know why I'd want a range weapon with a leap in PVE, it's like a sniper running up to you and sticking the barrel in your chest before firing.  The damage and utility wasn't very good for all the extra button presses you have to do and the flux your health is at.

Healing yourself before you harm yourself feels like putting the cart before the horse

The leap is cool! I haven't the foggiest of the actual intent, but greatsword is missing mobility (though it technically has a gap closer with a pull). It would be interesting to pair duel swords with greatsword, use the sword skills, then finish off with the leap to get into range then swap to greatsword. Or dagger, for the 1-2 people who still use that.

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1 minute ago, Curennos.9307 said:

The leap is cool! I haven't the foggiest of the actual intent, but greatsword is missing mobility (though it technically has a gap closer with a pull). It would be interesting to pair duel swords with greatsword, use the sword skills, then finish off with the leap to get into range then swap to greatsword. Or dagger, for the 1-2 people who still use that.

It just doesn't feel like it belongs there to me, give the leap to Greatsword, it would be more use there as you say.

Nobody with a range weapon from a bow to a rifle ever thinks, "Boy, if only I could get within a few inches of my target before I shoot them"

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Great weapon. Really shows love for the class. It's a fun range option for power build's finally. Congratz Necros.

I also like the idea of ranged melee attacks but reflects/walls are a huge issue that both Thief Axe and Necro Sword suffer from.

Maybe capitalize on range melee being it's own thing and make both Thief and Necro weapons unblockable, even if you make walls reduce their damage~ it'd be better than just deleting them from existence. Especially when both weapons have projectiles that fully function like melee to the point you can't strike things above you. Either that or allow close range attacks from them unblockable for targets physically hit by the held weapon...  Large battles are just completely covered in permanent walls nowadays.

Aside from that, it's a perfect weapon design and might make Necros overpopulate Tyria like MCHs did when it was just too fun compared to everything else.

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As a necromancer main, I have been very excited about the idea of dual swords. After playing around with it in PvE and WvW, I think my biggest complain right now is that the auto attack chain is extremely slow, which makes it feel clunky. I really really really would like to play dual swords, but it's going to have to be faster for me to enjoy it fully. Currently it almost feels slower than greatsword, which kind of goes against the idea of having a one-handed sword to begin with (i.e. smaller = faster attacks).

On the plus side, I like the idea of having two skills where the second sacrifices health for another attack. The leap, especially, was a huge need for mobility, especially for reaper. The attack animations are also pretty cool!

Edited by IndigoAneirin.1590
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2 hours ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

 

  • Give the Necro a benefit for catching the return like Tides of Time on Chrono shield does.  Perhaps a large return of health and/or boons like Superspeed (to stay in range of fleeing foes) and Quickness (to capitalize on the window of opportunity).  The fear is very difficult to land on players, and even in PvE it's unreliable.

While I fully agree with the rest of your post, this would be a terrible idea. Tides of Time currently has to be balanced around the player catching the wave, which forces the mesmer, notably one of the more mobile classes, into playing catch with it while missing the wave due to enemy behaviour making it very punishing to miss it. While adding options for enemies to counterplay you is a great idea, necro is already slow enough both in movement and in animations that it would just pile on the weaknesses that the class has. It would be better to just buff the skill in other ways.

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29 minutes ago, Tidalwave.9384 said:

While I fully agree with the rest of your post, this would be a terrible idea. Tides of Time currently has to be balanced around the player catching the wave, which forces the mesmer, notably one of the more mobile classes, into playing catch with it while missing the wave due to enemy behaviour making it very punishing to miss it. While adding options for enemies to counterplay you is a great idea, necro is already slow enough both in movement and in animations that it would just pile on the weaknesses that the class has. It would be better to just buff the skill in other ways.

Fair points.  I'm honestly just spitballing ideas on it, of course.  It would be hard for Consume to be much worse than it already is.

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1 hour ago, Echostorm.9143 said:

It just doesn't feel like it belongs there to me, give the leap to Greatsword, it would be more use there as you say.

Nobody with a range weapon from a bow to a rifle ever thinks, "Boy, if only I could get within a few inches of my target before I shoot them"

It'd be nice to have, but greatsword is already pretty 'complete' IMO. A solid (semi) spammable damage skill, a utility/damage skill, a CC/gap closer, and a defensive AoE. It'd be heard to find room for another gap closer without nerfing something, IMO. Also, GS was designed with reaper in mind, which very pointedly has shroud2 as a gap closer.

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I agree that the AA is too clunky and has that weird ground hovering effect. 
As everyone else said, there needs to be some kind combo field finisher/effect (chill/blind) 

Just doesn't feel "complete"
Hope the devs listen to the beta testers...
After all, they want feedback right?

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Healing cost should scale? I actually thought signet of undeath scaled but it does not in game. Maybe the heal values are pinch low then, I either never notice/think about the cost.

Non-auto Damage values feel a bit high.

P5 is odd that it has an extra .5 fear duration compared to staff/war-horn. I like running max fear + terror talent before beta and extra .5 is very strong.

s4 is bit visually noisy and the aoe is larger then a dodge roll. I feel a lot of the hitboxes are big.
If s/s power budget is no finisher/fields, I don't think that is a drawback.

Hitting with s2/4 that kills a targets allows flip without any effect.

All flip skills deal more dmg than auto so you'd always do flip skill if you are not under pressure?

Bug? - s4 hits the target for dmg and life-siphon damage. All targets in the area are hit twice. Can deal 4k easy in pvp lobby with double crit.


Rotation thought process:
s2 is bread and butter for the lifeforce, flip only if they below 50% (auto better). s3 use off cool-down since it does more than auto and heals. While s3 is slow-ish it is still faster than auto3. s4 feels biggy with it's double hit, use off cooldown as it hits very hard and flip too. s5 hits once but applies a dot that hits again twice, hardest hitting skill. s5 flip only if cc needed or terror trait.

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Very happy to be getting more Necromancer weapons and I had fun even in this early state. The flavour of the skill names and basic idea of the current animations work well.

For the auto-attack, I was honestly a bit let down with another traditional melee weapon working as ranged. The damage being the same as the mainhand dagger isn't doing it any favours and my immediate idea is to tack on an extra hit in melee range. That way there would be a small added risk/reward of wanting to play close to deal more damage but obviously being in range for other close ranged attacks.

The gap closer is very strange to have as the 3rd skill on mainhand sword. Even for the purpose of being used right before weapon switching, the only reasonable switch would be Dagger which is so underused that I can't imagine anyone doing it, or Greatsword which has a pull on its own kit. I'd either do my previously mentioned idea of having the sword auto also have a melee element to them, or make the gap closer a disengage option where you launch away from the opponent instead with the health-drain version being a ranged beam attack of some sort.

In general, the health-drain skills also just feel a bit strict and laggy which I imagine is due to their early state but still worth mentioning. It feels very committal to want to use the health-drain version of a skill since it has to be used so soon after the regular version. I think it'd be nice to have a few move seconds where the skill was flipped over as the cooldowns are all 5+ seconds anyway. I also think this would add some cool situations where you intentionally delay the 2nd activation of a skill by a bit for a bigger burst of timing the health-drain versions of 3 and 4 together potentially.

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I think its fair to say I don't get the necro-swords and I'm not really sure about it is core risk/reward concept with burning your HP.

Negative:
1.)  Feels like a "win more" mechanic.  If you are gaining more life then you are loosing, you'll just use the sacrifice powers.  I rarely felt like I was left with an interesting choice.  It made easier battles easier and didn't really help difficult ones.  I found myself quickly switching away from them as soon as things got dicey.

2.)  Pointless Leap:  Why do we have a leap on a ranged weapon?   All the powers except the leap are 900 so it isn't like you need to get in close for any reason.

3.)  Life Force generation feel really low.  I hardly got any life force using swords which is critical for many builds.

4.)  Skills 2 & 4 feel dull.  They just are damage spams, nothing interesting there.  The Damage and then more damage activations feels uninspired.

5.)  Lack of synergy.  The various swords skills don't see to set each other up in anyway.  Nothing.  Not even simple synergy like the well of darkness on long sword and the pull to drag things into the pool.

I'd like to see something like moving chill off auto attack and onto other powers, then giving auto-attack a bonus where it heals more against chilled foes.  I'd also like to see range be relevant in some way, such as turning of the sac powers into a close range nova around the necromancer, if we are going to have a leap on a ranged weapon.

Positive:
1.)  Skill 5 feel very good, and is enjoyable.  It feels very rewarding and impactful to fire and then recall the orb.  Further it creates positive tension as the fear effect can give you a breather forcing a player to decide if the cost if HP is worth it or not in a way the other powers do not.  I wish at least one other power had this kind of positive tension.

Overall:
I strongly dislike necro-swords and would like to see them given more depth.  Despite concerns above I found them to work just fine with reaper, Scourge and Harbinger.  Lowering your total HP pool didn't seem to impact much as you'll either be healing up from your attacks or just not using sac powers.  None of the seem like must use abilities that create a strong tension about whether to use them or not except skill 5.

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I've been playing Necromancer since beta back in 2012, I have 4 Necromancer characters and my gamemode of preference is WvW. Just to preface where I'm coming from. I'm definitely bias, so take my feedback with a grain of salt! I want the world for necromancers 💗

The swords feel like they're being designed with sPvP in mind, which I must admit was disappointing for me. The Sword 1 and Sword 5 both being blockable/reflectable projectiles mean that they are essentially non-existent in WvW, a problem that other power weapons in the Necromancer's kit already suffer from (e.g. Necrotic Grasp, Soul Grasp, and Life Blast).

The damage numbers are very low. I know the idea was to create a tradeoff of damage for survivability with the self-healing built in, but you might as well have reworked necromancer dagger/warhorn to this effect since they already have this unrealized functionality built in. This is the main reason the weapons feel designed for sPvP because PvE and WvW both have dedicated healers and party dynamics as the meta. Choosing a survivability tradeoff for less damage makes less sense in these game modes. In WvW especially, if you're using the initial skills to set up the secondary effects, you're probably getting no value out of the extra healing without Blood Bank (which is another dps loss from taking Blood Magic) before you sacrifice health, and essentially help the enemy down you more quickly.

So, if the goal is for these weapons to be solely used in sPvP, I don't have any worthwhile feedback since I don't play in this gamemode. Otherwise, I'll post below how I would design swords differently.

First, I would create separate effects on the initial skills based on whether the necromancer is above or below a 50% health threshold. This should still create the desired "bruiser" playstyle without making the swords feel underpowered in gamemodes with a healing meta. Below are changes that I would make to the WvW versions of these skills. I’ll leave the PvE feedback to the people running benchmark tests.

Sword 1 - Change the skill to 130 range cleave with a higher damage coefficient. Replace the chill on Deathly Enervation with cripple. Above 50% health, deal 10% increased damage on the first two strikes, and 20% increased damage on the third strike. Below 50% health, send out a 900 range bolt of life-stealing energy that only strikes 1 enemy.
With access to 2 leap skills to help you stick to a target, you can be rewarded for closing the gap while healthy to deal a large amount of damage, or life-steal from a distance before re-engaging.

Sword 2 (swap this skill around with Sword 3 and increase this skill’s cooldown to 16s)
Ravenous Wave: Above 50% health, the wave pulses a second time after the initial hit for 50% less damage. Below 50% health, the wave generates an additional 1% life force for each target struck and applies 2s of blindness.
Satiate: Move the boon corrupt from Gorge onto this skill. Reactivate to strike targets struck by the wave and corrupt 1 boon. Remove the damage increase against low health targets.
Ideally, Satiate should only strike the first five targets struck by the wave's first hit if you're above 50% health to avoid a possible 10-person target cap of boon corruption. The extra blindness is of course there to help the necromancer mitigate damage at low health while generating additional life force. I also wanted to change the boon corrupt to 1 from 2 because the amount of boon strip in the game is high enough as it is.

Sword 3 (Swap this skill around with Sword 2 and decrease this skill’s cooldown to 10s)
Path of Gluttony: Add a leap finisher. Above 50% health, apply poison and weakness to targets struck. Below 50% health, steal health from targets struck.
Gorge: Add a leap finisher. Remove the boon corruption element from this skill. Deal 50% additional damage to targets below 50% health.
The idea I had here was for the necromancer to be able to trade effectively in combat. By applying poison and weakness, enemies will deal less damage and have more difficulty sustaining against you, or life-steal at low health so you can activate those powerful secondary skills. Gorge makes more sense as a chase-down ability to try to execute an enemy that's already close to death's door - at the cost of your own health of course. Using the secondary leap for boon corrupt in WvW also felt very clunky, which is why I would like to see it moved off this skill.

Sword 4
Hungering Maelstrom: Reduce the casting time to either 3/4s or 1/2s for a better feel, and also to help the necromancer land the skill during the short windows to reactivate other sword skills. Above 50% health, apply 10 stacks of vulnerability for 8s and 4 stacks of bleeding for 4s. Below 50% health, 5 stacks of vulnerability and life steal.
Gormandize: Add 4 bleed stacks for 4s.
The casting time on this skill makes it feel like a dps loss and unsatisfying to use. Rotations would feel smoother on a weapon that is very busy with 8 different skills to use by lowering the casting time. The extra bleed could help make this viable as an off-hand weapon in hybrid or condition specs, and also one of the necromancer's jobs in WvW is condition application to eat cleanses.

Sword 5
Devouring Visage: Make this skill ground-targeted and unblockable.
Above 50% health, pulse damage 4 times and also apply 2s of cripple per pulse.
Below 50% health, pulse damage 3 times and also apply 1s of blindness per pulse. Generate an additional 4% life force on the first target struck.
Consume: Make this unblockable as well.


Pie in the sky version of sword 5 because I don't know how difficult this would be to design and implement, but I think it would be more interesting and more versatile of a skill.

Devouring Visage remains the same, but at the end of its path, the orb stays in place for up to 1 second (maybe 2 seconds?). At the end of the 1 second duration, the orb will detonate (blast finisher?) and apply a variety of conditions (1.5s fear, 1.5s immob, 3 stacks of torment for 3s) within a 240 radius.
Once the orb detonates, you cannot reactivate the skill.
Consume: Reactivate the skill to bring the orb back to you,  and grant yourself and allies offensive boons. For each enemy struck by devouring visage or consume (up to 5 strikes) grant additional boons to yourself and allies.
Base boons: 5 stacks of might for 10s, fury for 3s.
Additional boons per strike: 1 stack of might for 10s, fury for 1s.
This would make the reactivation have some support
that the necromancer lacks on weapon skills, as well as giving the player more time to set up the reactivation path. It also creates a powerful zoning tool by threatening the detonation.

As for skill name changes?

"Hungering Cut" "Hungering Slash" and "Gluttony's Scythe" for auto-attack chain
"Ravenous Leap" instead of Path of Gluttony
"Engorge" instead of Gorge
"Deathly Bile" instead of Ravenous Wave
"Devour" instead of Satiate
"Voracious Maw" instead of Hungering Maelstrom
"Rip and Tear" instead of Gormandize
"Ravaging Hunger" instead of Devouring Visage
"Consume" is perfect as it is.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read my dissertation, and thank you for everything you do to make this wonderful game better! 💗

 

Edited by Equinox.4195
Forgot to add the part about giving swords some combo finishers.
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