What if I told you there is an actual "I Win" combo in this game that makes it pointless for the target to have a keyboard? 🧪🐤💀

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 12/12/2023 at 6:10 PM, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Would just be nice if people could muster the self-control not to tunnel-vision the class I was on.  Which, after all, is completely irrelevant to the issue.  As I keep saying, one could mentally substitute my thief with any class of their choice and it wouldn't matter.  This combo would still be unhealthy.

Not sure I agree here. Been hit by Moa across a range of classes including Teefs. I think glass cannon was your issue here. Killed many a player that applied the Moa but I admit I run tankier even while on Thief. So will have to -1, Moa has its place in gameplay. 

Edit: Maybe a middle ground would be to add a stunbreak in the Moa skills.

Edited December 18, 2023 by TheGrimm.5624
Edit: Middle ground

[Dawdler.8521]

7 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I take Moa in general as 'I can't kill you normally so going to take the easy route'.  Degen skill, and if I personally survive it and they don't, someone's getting sieged.

Your comparison would be valid if the target of said moa isn’t a meta elite spec and you are a core engineer.

Now, guess what percentage of encounters that would be… And why the targets of said moa isn’t running core.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Stab/dodge/stunbreak the pull and reflect the elixir 😉

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

34 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Stab/dodge/stunbreak the pull and reflect the elixir 😉

This guy gets it.

[Mikhael.2391]

that doesnt bother me nearly as much as thief or any other CC heavy class spamming cc and adding cooldowns on the already existing cooldowns from the last 5 inturrupts. this could easily be fixed so that at least if you stunbreak the cc you reset the cds instead of also having to wait and probably get cced again.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

On 12/17/2023 at 6:08 PM, MedievalThings.5417 said:

You've described every build with more than one stun/daze but for thief it's basilisk venom, and while it's not 10 seconds, it wouldn't have to be since you are downed and dead in less than 5 hits, while every skill you use is interrupted.  And sure, it plays out mechanically different, but has the exact same result, unable to get skills off, despite having used a stun break, when played against a good thief.  The video that was linked isn't some amazing broken OP thing, it's a thief who got caught unaware, reacted slowly, and died because of it.

No, no I haven't.  There is simply no other combo in the game besides CC + Moa that 100% completely locks out the target's skill bar in half a second, regardless whether they have 1 stunbreak or 3 (like the target in the clip).  No one has pointed to such a combo because there isn't one.  Every other combo is at least realistically possible to stunbreak followed by dodge, block, invuln, whatever.  With well-executed CC + Moa, you have 0.5 seconds to stunbreak from first hit or it's game over.

19 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Not sure I agree here. Been hit by Moa across a range of classes including Teefs. I think glass cannon was your issue here. Killed many a player that applied the Moa but I admit I run tankier even while on Thief. So will have to -1, Moa has its place in gameplay. 

Edit: Maybe a middle ground would be to add a stunbreak in the Moa skills.

Ok, but have you been hit by CC + Moa in 0.5 seconds and spent the next 3 on your back with your entire skill bar locked out despite having 3 stun breaks?  I've been Moa'd plenty, but never like this where you may as well not own a keyboard.  If Moa skillbar had a stunbreak, I'd shut up and go away.

18 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Your comparison would be valid if the target of said moa isn’t a meta elite spec and you are a core engineer.

Now, guess what percentage of encounters that would be… And why the targets of said moa isn’t running core.

You could roll a die and depending on what side it landed, I could have been running my core mesmer that day.  Last I checked, core mesmer is not a meta elite spec.  I have spent far more hours on core mes than thief in the last several months.  Had I been on core mes or any of my other mains, this discussion wouldn't have half as many posts--but somehow someone would still be whining about thieves.

13 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Stab/dodge/stunbreak the pull and reflect the elixir 😉

Did you miss the part where the unseen pull happens in 0.5 seconds before being Moa'd?  If you think you have 0.5-second surprise reaction time or that you are never ever surprised or caught off guard, I'd like to make a wager.

8 hours ago, Mikhael.2391 said:

that doesnt bother me nearly as much as thief or any other CC heavy class spamming cc and adding cooldowns on the already existing cooldowns from the last 5 inturrupts. this could easily be fixed so that at least if you stunbreak the cc you reset the cds instead of also having to wait and probably get cced again.

Says the Willlbender who's always whining about thieves.

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

You could roll a die

A 20 sided die where 1-19 are elites and 20 is core then.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

21 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Your comparison would be valid if the target of said moa isn’t a meta elite spec and you are a core engineer.

Now, guess what percentage of encounters that would be… And why the targets of said moa isn’t running core.

How does any of this make the combo less stupid?

Just because Moa's a meme on engi doesn't make OPs complaint any less valid.  Have yet to see in this thread a reason why a transform + CC combo should exist, only goal post moving.

Regardless, since you quoted me--meme builds more than anything are going to get BM from me if they miss, because I find all of them stupid and not funny stupid, it's dreamer level annoying sound stupid.  

[bq pd.2148]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Have yet to see in this thread a reason why a transform + CC combo should exist, only goal post moving.

if the transform was like polymorph in DnD, the issue in this thread would not exist, there you get HP based on the transformed creature and if depleted you will revert to your previous form with previous HP.

[TheGrimm.5624]

4 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Ok, but have you been hit by CC + Moa in 0.5 seconds and spent the next 3 on your back with your entire skill bar locked out despite having 3 stun breaks? 

Yes, but I build tanky since over a decade I have had a terribad connection so need to expect slow reaction time. Dropping targets while Moa is quite fun.

4 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

I've been Moa'd plenty, but never like this where you may as well not own a keyboard.  If Moa skillbar had a stunbreak, I'd shut up and go away.

This I think would be a better approach to address both glass and tank in resolving the issue.

 

[MedievalThings.5417]

13 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

No, no I haven't.  There is simply no other combo in the game besides CC + Moa that 100% completely locks out the target's skill bar in half a second, regardless whether they have 1 stunbreak or 3 (like the target in the clip).  No one has pointed to such a combo because there isn't one.  Every other combo is at least realistically possible to stunbreak followed by dodge, block, invuln, whatever.  With well-executed CC + Moa, you have 0.5 seconds to stunbreak from first hit or it's game over.

 

I've been permadazed 1v1 (with 2 stunbreaks on my bar) vs several classes, most notably ele, but has happened multiple times.   Easily 10 seconds of me with no skill bar, having burned both breaks and instantly re-dazed, waiting for my skills to come back because I was full minstrel and not an easy kill.  I've been perma-knocked down by warrior (with 3 stun breaks on my bar). You can't come here saying nothing else can essentially remove your skill bar when this is exactly what basilisk thief can do as well, or any other CC heavy build. If I can't cast any skills during a 3 second fight, how is that any different...it isn't.  As for the .5 second window to react, that's all the time most burst builds give you to react.  Has nothing to do with moa.

Edit - And toss elixir X is 3 seconds.

Edited December 19, 2023 by MedievalThings.5417

[Leger.3724]

"I was on the receiving end of an unfun mechanic that's not really OP while playing an entire build riddled with unfun mechanics that are also not really OP. Sympathize with me and nerf what killed me but don't touch my build!"

Should Moa be in the game? No, probably not. But there are way bigger problems with this game from design to balance. And then to top it off there are things way more prevalent and unfun than moa as implied above... like thief. Of course the thief mains don't understand this because they're having fun with their evades, stealth and teleports. They don't seem to understand the other person in their dinky little - run in, lose the trade, run out - routine isn't having much fun and is feeling annoyed/harassed. 

 

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

4 hours ago, MedievalThings.5417 said:

I've been permadazed 1v1 (with 2 stunbreaks on my bar) vs several classes, most notably ele, but has happened multiple times.   Easily 10 seconds of me with no skill bar, having burned both breaks and instantly re-dazed, waiting for my skills to come back because I was full minstrel and not an easy kill.  I've been perma-knocked down by warrior (with 3 stun breaks on my bar). You can't come here saying nothing else can essentially remove your skill bar when this is exactly what basilisk thief can do as well, or any other CC heavy build. If I can't cast any skills during a 3 second fight, how is that any different...it isn't.  As for the .5 second window to react, that's all the time most burst builds give you to react.  Has nothing to do with moa.

Edit - And toss elixir X is 3 seconds.

Any form of "perma-CC" is certainly anti-fun and a discussion for another topic.  Some have suggested brief CC-immunity/stability following use of stunbreaks, or a diminishing returns system (decreasing duration) to discourage overuse of CC on the same target.

Still, the situations you described are not the same as the one in this discussion.  You're describing matchups where available CCs simply outnumber available stunbreaks.  But stunbreaks are not the only way to get out of perma-CC scenarios.  And the first CC that occurs is not an automatic death sentence.  Break the CC, then avoid what comes next, whether by active mitigation, line-of-sighting, or outranging (porting/running).

Contrast that to the situation in this discussion: If you don't break the first CC, in 0.5 seconds, by surprise, it's game over.  What you describe is problematic, and arguably somewhat more so in that it is possibly more common.  But it is also much more matchup-dependent.  CC spam is going to feel much more oppressive to a necro or anything without high stab-up time or mobility.  But CC + Moa is oppressive to anything.  Because it does not matter what spec or how many stunbreaks.  The skillbar will be totally locked out in 0.5 seconds, regardless.  The only salvation is being tanky enough to survive the burst, but no savvy engi is going to target a tank with this combo anyway.
What you describe does not make CC + Moa any less unhealthy and problematic when it does happen.  Both can be unhealthy and problematic at the same time.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

1 hour ago, Leger.3724 said:

"I was on the receiving end of an unfun mechanic that's not really OP while playing an entire build riddled with unfun mechanics that are also not really OP. Sympathize with me and nerf what killed me but don't touch my build!"

Should Moa be in the game? No, probably not. But there are way bigger problems with this game from design to balance. And then to top it off there are things way more prevalent and unfun than moa as implied above... like thief. Of course the thief mains don't understand this because they're having fun with their evades, stealth and teleports. They don't seem to understand the other person in their dinky little - run in, lose the trade, run out - routine isn't having much fun and is feeling annoyed/harassed. 

People continue to prove the updated title of this discussion.

Somewhere there is an interesting social experiment to be conducted: Show a clip like the one here with a thief-skill bar, and show the exact same clip with say... a core warrior skill bar.  Compare the responses.  Anyone with a pulse on community sentiment can predict the results.  Spoiler: There would be infinitely more sympathy and agreement about a certain skill interaction being degen and unhealthy, in response to the latter.  And a lot less off-topic responses and derailing to boot.

[kash.9213]

6 hours ago, MedievalThings.5417 said:

I've been permadazed 1v1 (with 2 stunbreaks on my bar) vs several classes, most notably ele, but has happened multiple times.   Easily 10 seconds of me with no skill bar, having burned both breaks and instantly re-dazed, waiting for my skills to come back because I was full minstrel and not an easy kill.  I've been perma-knocked down by warrior (with 3 stun breaks on my bar). You can't come here saying nothing else can essentially remove your skill bar when this is exactly what basilisk thief can do as well, or any other CC heavy build. If I can't cast any skills during a 3 second fight, how is that any different...it isn't.  As for the .5 second window to react, that's all the time most burst builds give you to react.  Has nothing to do with moa.

Edit - And toss elixir X is 3 seconds.

Even just in context of this games combat, 3 seconds is way different and actually forgiving than 10 seconds. Even on my Specter which is maybe 90% the standard raid build I can probably take a 3 second sequence even if it's kind of sharp unless there's a few secondary mods going off like life steal on interrupt or something. 10 seconds can allow a more packed sequence to unload right into you and probably get some stuff from the fight opener starting to cycle back around. 

[Kuya.6495]

Engineer and thieves aside, moa is a pretty unfun skill to be on the receiving end of and even more so when it's used by a stealthed enemy so there was never a chance to counter it.

 

If the enemy has stealth and moa, there is no counter play to be had except, hope the enemy is so bad he fails to capitalize on the moa.

[Chaba.5410]

4 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Any form of "perma-CC" is certainly anti-fun and a discussion for another topic.  Some have suggested brief CC-immunity/stability following use of stunbreaks, or a diminishing returns system (decreasing duration) to discourage overuse of CC on the same target.

Not really.  It's this topic because in your video you are essentially perma-CC'd and that's why this combo was so effective against you.  If the brief CC-immunity that "some" have suggested were implemented, you would have been able to escape even in moa form.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Dawdler.8521]

8 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Contrast that to the situation in this discussion: If you don't break the first CC, in 0.5 seconds, by surprise, it's game over.  What you describe is problematic, and arguably somewhat more so in that it is possibly more common.  But it is also much more matchup-dependent.  CC spam is going to feel much more oppressive to a necro or anything without high stab-up time or mobility.  But CC + Moa is oppressive to anything.  Because it does not matter what spec or how many stunbreaks.  The skillbar will be totally locked out in 0.5 seconds, regardless.  The only salvation is being tanky enough to survive the burst, but no savvy engi is going to target a tank with this combo anyway.
What you describe does not make CC + Moa any less unhealthy and problematic when it does happen.  Both can be unhealthy and problematic at the same time.

99 out 100 times I’m standing there completely unable to do anything with all skills spinning for 2-10s straight it’s not moa. It can be just one ele or something knocking/dazing me down repeatedly. Often several.

What you are saying is basically that a roamer is just as problematic as a boonball when it comes to the strength of boonballs. I mean yeah you can have all the boons solo, I guess.

[TheGrimm.5624]

6 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Engineer and thieves aside, moa is a pretty unfun skill to be on the receiving end of and even more so when it's used by a stealthed enemy so there was never a chance to counter it.

 

If the enemy has stealth and moa, there is no counter play to be had except, hope the enemy is so bad he fails to capitalize on the moa.

Why does this feel like a political ad induced by a foreign country during a primary election? Stealth, Stun, Daze, Moa Engis assault forces unite? 

Maybe wear some armor and be less glass cannon? 

So who is up to a warband of all Engis to try this out on a boon ball? 

[Dawdler.8521]

3 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

So who is up to a warband of all Engis to try this out on a boon ball? 

Already done and 50+ supply drops in the same place lags out the server and basically instakill another 50 man trying to push through.

Until they learn not to run straight into it in which case the meta zerg crush the engies because they’re pretty kitten at zerging without anything else.

[TheGrimm.5624]

11 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Already done and 50+ supply drops in the same place lags out the server and basically instakill another 50 man trying to push through.

Until they learn not to run straight into it in which case the meta zerg crush the engies because they’re pretty kitten at zerging without anything else.

lol, so hold one, you had a 50 player Engi group all equipped with Moa?

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

lol, so hold one, you had a 50 player Engi group all equipped with Moa?

No supply drop wtf would everyone use moa by the time the last person throws that slow elixir the enemy zerg will already be coming out of moa nuking you lol. Or you just moad half your own engie zerg.

[ArchonWing.9480]

7 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

No supply drop wtf would everyone use moa by the time the last person throws that slow elixir the enemy zerg will already be coming out of moa nuking you lol. Or you just moad half your own engie zerg.

But that's the best WvW strategy. Moa yourself and then run away. letting your other moa'd team mates die so you can escape.

Edited December 20, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[MedievalThings.5417]

3 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

But that's the best WvW strategy. Moa yourself and then run away. letting your other moa'd team mates die so you can escape.

I...have done this.  Moa'd right as a reflect wall went up, knowing it was coming (and out of dodges) I turned and prepared.  The 2 people next to me were sacrifices I was willing to make.

[Kate.3679]

0.5 seconds is more than enough to stunbreak if you were paying attention.