WvW Skirmish Claim Ticket system and requirement for Conflux.

[Chaba.5410]

Just now, Anasate.5408 said:

WvW claim ticket reward track is about as fair as casino games. 

""it doesn't actually hurt your earnings (per hour of play) that dramatically if you end a week somewhere in platinum"

[vares.8457]

1 minute ago, Anasate.5408 said:

Unless I do the work. But I would rather do the work in a fair system. WvW claim ticket reward track is about as fair as casino games. 

If you don’t like it don’t do it. No one is forcing you and legendaries are not mandatory 

[Chaba.5410]

What Anet has already done to adjust the system:
 

 

[Anasate.5408]

Just now, Chaba.5410 said:

""it doesn't actually hurt your earnings (per hour of play) that dramatically if you end a week somewhere in platinum"

I would argue that an extra 4hrs of total time investment for a reward is not negligible.

[Anasate.5408]

1 minute ago, Chaba.5410 said:

What Anet has already done to adjust the system:
 

Not good enough.

[Anasate.5408]

4 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

If you don’t like it don’t do it. No one is forcing you and legendaries are not mandatory 

Yes, they are. Legendaries are the endgame.

[Chaba.5410]

WvW is endgame.

[Anasate.5408]

1 minute ago, Chaba.5410 said:

WvW is endgame.

Fashionwars is endgame.

[Chaba.5410]

5 minutes ago, Anasate.5408 said:

Fashionwars is endgame.

And that's why there was a player from PvE who joined our WvW guild a few years ago.  He's a skin collector and wanted to get all the WvW obtainable skins.  To do this he put the time and effort into finding a group to play with, just like you would do if you wanted to get into raiding.  We made sure to help him out.  He doesn't play with us regularly anymore and that's totally fine.  We still see him from time to time, especially whenever there's a WvW week event.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Anasate.5408]

24 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

And that's why there was a player from PvE who joined our WvW guild a few years ago.  He's a skin collector and wanted to get all the WvW obtainable skins.  To do this he put the time and effort into finding a group to play with, just like you would do if you wanted to get into raiding.  He doesn't play with us regularly anymore and that's totally fine.  We still see him from time to time, especially whenever there's a WvW week event.

So what's the point? That PvE players have strong incentive to play WvW, just like WvW players have strong incentive to play PvE? As demonstrated, Anet skews incentive towards PvE players who haven't been introduced to WvW. Since the poeple who replied so far have been attacking my motives, I can also point out that the discrepancy by itself makes a point about the state of WvW. One might argue that it's bad, I don't know, I don't have player statistics, Anet does. We're faced with 2 cases: 

Case1: WvW is statistically undesired by players and Anet is pushing players towards the game mode to make it palatable for the people who are still enamored by it.
This case returns the possibility of Anet and WvW players suffering from sunk cost fallacy.

Case2: WvW is statistically preferred by players and Anet is pushing players towards the game mode for their own sake.
This case returns the possibility of Anet catering to a single game mode that's already popular.

Draw your own conclusions from these 2 cases.

Regardless, I did not intend to enter a discussion about the state of WvW, I just want to draw attention to and discuss the time asymmetry of gear acquisition methods.

[Cyninja.2954]

12 minutes ago, Anasate.5408 said:

So what's the point? That PvE players have strong incentive to play WvW, just like WvW players have strong incentive to play PvE? As demonstrated, Anet skews incentive towards PvE players who haven't been introduced to WvW. Since the poeple who replied so far have been attacking my motives, I can also point out that the discrepancy by itself makes a point about the state of WvW. One might argue that it's bad, I don't know, I don't have player statistics, Anet does. We're faced with 2 cases: 

Case1: WvW is statistically undesired by players and Anet is pushing players towards the game mode to make it palatable for the people who are still enamored by it.
This case returns the possibility of Anet and WvW players suffering from sunk cost fallacy.

Case2: WvW is statistically preferred by players and Anet is pushing players towards the game mode for their own sake.
This case returns the possibility of Anet catering to a single game mode that's already popular.

Draw your own conclusions from these 2 cases.

Regardless, I did not intend to enter a discussion about the state of WvW, I just want to draw attention to and discuss the time asymmetry of gear acquisition methods.

Or

Case 3: rewards are not the primary concern for most players and the developers are trying to design reward incentives in a way which supports and enhances the game mode.

Handing out maximum rewards to players who are inherently not interested in the game mode or interested in fast and short term achievement of goals might not be the target audience here.

[Anasate.5408]

I just noticed that this topic was moved to the WvW forum. Why? I admit that the title is not well chosen, but the original post makes a logical comparison between 2 distinct game modes, using the analogous systems that exist between them.

[Anasate.5408]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Case 3: rewards are not the primary concern for most players and the developers are trying to design reward incentives in a way which supports and enhances the game mode.

This does not derive from the premise. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies.

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Handing out maximum rewards to players who are inherently not interested in the game mode or interested in fast and short term achievement of goals might not be the target audience here.

Didn't ask for fast and short term, just for a fair system.

[Cyninja.2954]

3 minutes ago, Anasate.5408 said:

This does not derive from the premise. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies.

Didn't ask for fast and short term, just for a fair system.

Fair can be a rather subjective word.

You are looking at this from a pure reward/time angle. If you bothered to consider time investment per player and how that might affect a game mode like WvW, that might not hold up.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Some more tickets per week wouldn't hurt.
As someone who only plays WvW, getting all tickets in like four days and then nothing is kind of a bummer.

[Anasate.5408]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

Fair can be a rather subjective word.

Fair is never subjective. "1=1" is a fair assessment of the value of a unit. "1~=0.9" is unfair even though the truth state of the statement is maintained.

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You are looking at this from a pure reward/time angle.

I'm looking at it from the only angle that allows for direct comparison. 

7 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

If you bothered to consider time investment per player and how that might affect a game mode like WvW, that might not hold up.

Please elaborate. That's what we're here for.

[Cyninja.2954]

Just now, Anasate.5408 said:

Fair is never subjective. "1=1" is a fair assessment of the value of a unit. "1~=0.9" is unfair even though the truth state of the statement is maintained.

I'm looking at it from the only angle that allows for direct comparison. 

Please elaborate. That's what we're here for.

Consider 1 team made up of players spending 1-2 hours per week in the mode meeting a team with players who invest multiple chunks of time in the hours.

Consider players going in, taking up the limited amount of slots on the maps to get their maximum rewards instead of committing a certain minimum amount of time.

Consider players sticking with the mode for a longer time, because rewards are back-loaded versus players leaving the moment they are done with their rewards.

Then consider players who primarily come into this mode for the mode and not for its rewards. Those players will eventually have all their rewards and to them, having similar minded players enter this mode is of more value than the PvE scourge of loot hogs.

Case in point: you aren't the first PvE player coming here wanting WvW rewards, you won't be the last. Every single time it's been about getting the shiny faster. Some of those voices /demands form the past, some of which even responded in this thread, by now have left the mode after they got their shiny. Getting them their shiny faster would have done nothing besides cycling them through faster (and potentially negatively affecting other game modes, especially raids, where the WvW legendary armor used to be the alternative acquisition method).

[XenesisII.1540]

There are many players who have completed the legendary rings already, so I don't think they should lower the bar on obtaining them now after those players put in the time and effort for it. Mind you they already have, since tickets from skirmish track are now a soft cap as you can earn more from OSR and weeklies.

If a player is considering to obtain the ring purely for stat swap purposes, it's a highly optional choice to chase because ascended rings have the same stats, and are quite easy to obtain in multiple ways.

If you're chasing the ring for it's cosmetic properties, I don't think it's too much to ask for some time and effort to obtain a cosmetic looks that is exclusive to the game mode. Especially if it's a legendary item, something that will be the very last thing you will ever need to farm for in that item slot.

Veterans of the mode have an easier time obtain these items, which is not unfair since they put in a lot of time before the items were even introduced, time served in a sense. The time gate is set to certain limits for each mode because of the effort required in them. Raids require you to run a semi competent group of around 10 to obtain it's rewards, but there is no solo mode. Meanwhile in wvw you can get to t6 participation and then go afk every 9mins watching netflix, then solo cap a camp to maintain the participation until you're done for the week, this can be done entirely solo, not much effort required, hence the minimal time required needs to be much more. So you can't sit there and say well coalescence only requires 36 hours, while conflux requires 60 and they should be the same! when the effort for them is totally different.

The more time and effort you put into wvw the faster you can obtain your rewards, especially if you're chasing all it's legendaries. But if you're just chasing a couple items, it's probably not worth your time and you can just carry on with ascended instead.

If anything pve people should be asking for another legendary ring in pve lands, instead of asking to nerf wvw stuff to make it easier for them, after all, it's already been done for the legendary gear in overworld. 🤷‍♂️

I need legendary accessories still, but I refuse to pve anymore, so I'll just use ascended, I'm not going to run to the general forums to complain they should make them easier to obtain, but they should add wvw versions at some point. The three main end game modes raids/fractals, wvw, spvp, should have their own separate legendary sets to collect. 😏☕

Edited December 12, 2023 by XenesisII.1540

[Player.2475]

The way WvW hands out weekly rewards is generally very poorly designed anyway.

Before November 2021, if you were in a bad match up and did not have any ranks, you needed 40 hours per week to get to the Diamond 6 reward chest (365 tickets). They reduced that to 24 hours, so that if you have commitment and no ranks, the absolute worst case scenario is 20 hours. That's still as much as a part time job, and with the old system you would need 22 weeks to get a full legendary set, or I think 7-9 weeks for any of the other WvW legendaries.  Playing less hours a week is disincentivized because the rewards are more backloaded, with I think 60% of the weekly skirmish tickets behind the last 50% of pips you need.

You can reduce this time by gaining ranks, but it takes almost a year of playing with every single exp boost in the game to reach silver rank, which reduces the weekly grind by about 3-5 hours depending on how bad your server is, but at that point, you should already have enough skirmish tickets to be able to afford every WvW legendary to begin with.

It's disgusting how long it takes.

That's almost 1000 hours in WvW just to get all the WvW accessories, backpack and 1 armor set, and a rank that reduces your part time job to being an in-office intern for 2 days a week.

Of course, the inclusion of the new weeklies improved that, by giving you 35 weekly skirmish tickets (P.S: if you ever manage to get lucky enough to ever do all 8 weeklies, you should play the lottery), but you need to play 5-10 hours of WvW for those every week anyway, so it's a bonus, not a good way to get skirmish tickets. The individual skirmish tickets you get from defending and seizing Tier 3 objectives don't matter. I don't think I ever get more than 5 of those in an entire week of playing.

Of course, you can reduce this by gaining ranks, but let me tell you as someone who has been playing WvW for 2 years --

Even at Gold rank, getting to that Diamond 6 chest feels like a chore. I feel terrible for new players getting into WvW for the rewards, because you really need to be unemployed or a student for a year if you want to get anything out of WvW in a reasonable amount of time.

I 100% support increasing the amount of base pips by another 2 or even 3. It would save new players 5 hours every week and make playing WvW for the rewards more bearable. Veterans would also save 1-2 hours but I doubt it would matter to them, they probably just like WvW anyway.

Be warned if you are in it for the rewards, though. You will hate every moment of it. You will resent yourself. You will live in eternal shame when you are an old man and have to tell your grandchildren (lol if you'll have any) that you spent 1000 hours doing something you did not want in a game that's 2 years away from hitting maintenance mode.
On the bright side, if you enjoy killing other players, you will keep coming back even after you get all of the rewards.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Player.2475

[Biziut.3594]

4 hours ago, Anasate.5408 said:

Wow. Everyone here is superficially arguing semantics or trying to gatekeep instead of addressing the topic.
This post is about:
1. Claim ticket acquisition curve;
2. Heavily skewed time requirement for Conflux, compared to PvE counterpart.

Just because it's a different game mode doesn't mean that the time involvement should be calculated differently. You're way off topic.

Not good enough. The math speaks for itself.

That's a "you" problem. Your achievements are yours, they don't have any bearing on the current state of the system. If a person is born with the ability to survive by eating only candy doesn't mean that there should be more candy shops in the world. You're just gatekeeping.

It's still 15 hours/week of "stomping a fool every 10 minutes or so". It requires your attention.

 Legendaries are indeed a long term goal. Trust me, I know, I have a nearly full armory. I worked hard for it, but I wouldn't mind if Anet made the items I got easier to acquire as it would not invalidate my achievement. Do you have anything to add that's actually on topic?

Finally someone who puts in a modicum of effort into addressing the topic. Honestly, thank you!
However, at the risk of repeating myself, I would like to point out that ticket acquisition is not linear. Because of this, if you don't put in 15 hrs per week, the total hour commitment only increases, as opposed to any other legendary system in the game. When a system gives compound returns, it does promote addictive behavior, and addictive behavior is toxic, hence the system is toxic. You can argue semantics all you want, whether or not it's intentional, it doesn't change the fact that it's a predatory design.
I don't find it discouraging, and I'm not stressing about it, I'm merely pointing out a flaw in the design.
Coalescence and raid armor are locked behind raiding just as Conflux and WvW armor is locked behind WvW. The systems are analogous to each other, which invites the opportunity for a direct comparison between the two. I am making that comparison.
 

Oh so we are the ones that supposed to give you arguments why this is a bad idea? Or maybe it should be you who should try convince community why your sugestion should actually be implemented. Just becouse You don't like the arguments me and other players gave You, doesn't make them any less valid. I watched first two pages of this topic, and literally no single commenter agrees with You. And if that don't make You rethink than maybe it's not the game flaw but a flaw in your thinking, know at least that You actually made no effort to convince anyone, becouse your whole initial post can be described with "Tickets toxic, gimme gimme best for free, if u disagree u toxic too".

As I said. Legendary are long term goal that helps (among other things) to keep players engaged in the content. Lacking this legendary does not gate you from participating in anything game has to offer. (Edit: especially in fashion wars xd). You are good to go with Ascended and even Exotic gear.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Biziut.3594

[Biziut.3594]

2 hours ago, Anasate.5408 said:

Fashionwars is endgame.

Yes and this floating balls are as fashionable as hanging multiple cables of christmas lights on yourself and than lighting yourself on fire.

So if it is fashion you are going for, than you are better off skipping on accesories as a whole. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 hours ago, Anasate.5408 said:

This does not derive from the premise. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies.

 

Usually when pointing out fallacies, you should link to the one in particular and explain why it is fallacious.

This is about as useful as those error messages that say "There was an error"

Btw,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Anasate.5408 said:

I'm looking at it from the only angle that allows for direct comparison. 

You mean the totally direct comparison of your OP between the maximum time lowest effort of someone stepping into WvW for the first time in their life and a highly optimistic and optimised raiding guild clearing all wings?

Yeah... such a good angle.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[TheGrimm.5624]

16 hours ago, Anasate.5408 said:

The ticket acquisition curve should at least be reversed to create a player friendly environment within the game mode. A negative feedback rewards system promotes responsible play time and caters to all player types, not just to enthusiasts of the game mode who also have a generous amount of play time at their disposal.

This is an end game item, it should take a while to acquire. The curve was also put into place so that veterans in the game mode would have an edge since they had put the time into it. This was on purpose. This is not an item you need, its a big shiny target to acquire over time. Forward loading WvW skills make sense to not over bias against newer players, but the tickets make sense so that the more time you put in adds up over time. Have to go with a -1 here.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

17 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

You mean the totally direct comparison of your OP between the maximum time lowest effort of someone stepping into WvW for the first time in their life and a highly optimistic and optimised raiding guild clearing all wings?

Yeah... such a good angle.

The "Guild FC in 6 hours" for Coal compared to just hopped into WvW time for Conflux, but calling others out when they are talking about how long it takes them at X rank is peak comedy.
What makes it go into the stratosphere is  "you can just do easy raids".

This actually reminds me of the WoW guy from a few days ago who complained about GW2 taking too long to level and gear for new players, but in WoW you can power level in a day then do M+ for gear and get to max ilevel in a few days. Same energy. This is bad grind, because it takes too long with no experience, it takes longer than that other thing that you can do in less time if you're part of an experienced group after gearing and learning roles and encounters.