Fractals of the Mists Fractures The Playerbase

[ronkul.1320]

IMHO I think that fractals' basic structure fractures the playerbase through both agony resistance requirements as you progress (i.e. ascended gear/legendary gear for the agony resistance slots and the infusions for the agony resistance which is usually just a gold barrier through crafting (the mats needed to level up crafting and to craft the equipment pieces) and agony resistance infusions through the TP) and the fractal level gating (which is more tolerable because higher level fractal players can play with lower level ones). Since fractals is designed as a group content, fracturing the playerbase through these mechanics is the antithesis of getting a group to progress fractal levels in the first place. The players usually start pooling at the higher level fractals as time progresses. Having progression through content is not a bad idea but fractals gives little incentive to team up and help progress lower fractal level players to higher level ones where the people are at. The daily and recommended fractal rewards (like pristine fractal relic currency) was put in place to alleviate this problem to come extent by grouping players together for a common goal and in the process progress those groups of players through the content. However daily fractals at higher levels also auto completes lower level daily fractals, thus doing a t3 fractal per se completes both t2 and t1 level daily fractals. I think that while this is good for rewarding players who have progressed father in fractal levels, it also disincentivizes those players from grouping with lower level fractal runners in their dailies and ultimately hurt those lower level fractal players from progressing their fractal levels (as they need a group to progress through the content as less of the playerbase is willing to do that as the playerbase overall pools at the top levels). I would suggest giving a unique currency and/or reward that rewards players doing each of the 4 tiers of fractal level ranges (one for t1, one for t2, one for t3, and one for t4) as an incentive to run those fractal levels with other people (maybe another daily currency). I think those rewards should be long term horizontal rewards that either rewards other BIS gear that fractals doesn't give (or slowly gives) or cosmetic or convenience/utility rewards.

On the same note of BIS gear, I think anet should focus on making ascended/legendary gear more utility/convenience oriented (i.e. like they did with stat swapping and account wide unlock for legendary gear) than performance oriented (the stat difference between BIS gear and more easily gotten exotic gear). I think that in calculating the cost (effort and/or gold and/or time invested) vs. reward aspect of these gear tiers (exotic gear vs. ascended/legendary gear) it should be cost vs. utility instead of cost vs performance. I think that the difference between the base stats of exotic and ascended/legendary gear should be lessen or eliminated all together, though maybe keep the stats increase from infusions because they are already low enough. I do not know what these specific horizontal/utility differences between the 3 tiers of gear would be but they should be "wanted" qualities but not "needed" qualities. The base stat differences between the gear tiers are small but make players feel like they are losing out in competitive edge when it comes to wvw and high end pve. Many new raid groups or raid practice groups strongly encourage having some ascended gear like weapons to participate because the slim margins make a difference with the enrage mechanics of the raid encounters. Raids and fractals also reward easier (gold wise) to obtain ascended gear which may be "needed" for raids and is definitely needs for fractals (which has the agony mechanic). So the equipment needed for these pve content is also the reward (a chicken and the egg problem). Crafting ascended gear is also a viable option but is too gold heavy gated for newer players to get into the content (remember CJH talking about "preparing" to do content?) which you either have to grind out or pay with gems to gold. I think that crafting should be more focused on being useful for legendary crafting than ascended crafting to keep the value of crafting stable (like making some crafting intermediaries but not all TPable like the ones for wvw ascended/legendary armor). In wvw in dueling, roaming, or gvg the gear difference makes it ambiguous on whether someone won through skill or not if it is a close call match. Recently ascended gear has been added via the wizard's vault mechanic but I think this is a band aid because the cap on the ascended gear gotten is low for the amount of time in between vault refreshes (which is 3-4 months for half a gear set that only uses base state combinations and not all combinations and does not include trinkets though you can somewhat get though laurels).

What are your thoughts on these issues and how would you alleviate them?

[Parasite.5389]

is there a TL:DR for this, because i had to turn on narrator to read this and it still makes no sense

[Fueki.4753]

Agony Resistance is supposed to gate players. It's been done on purpose.

Back, when fractals launched, you had three random fractals and then the Jade maw on uneven scales. the Agony Resistance gating was implemented to prevent players to get into scales that were too high for them.

You can think of the original it a bit like Mythic dungeon in WoW, which scales continuously. But since GW2 doesn't have any item level to gate higher scales behind, something else was needed. And that something turned out to be Agony Resistance.

And while the current Fractals system is different, Agony Resistance still is there to prevent you from going higher than you should go.

The other issues that I could identify within your wall of words are player-made issues that should not be solved by neutering systems.

[Biziut.3594]

I don't understand it eighter.

Delete agony requirement so newbie players can get into higher levels immidietly with their mix of green/blue/gold, and let them be disappointed that content is too hard? Game have to encourage You to get better gear somehow, thats what games are about.

Encourage high end players to carry the new players through low level fractals? And what will new player learn from the boss that is killed by single touch of this expirienced players?

Fractals are designed the way so everyone can get into them and slowly progress higher up, whlist learning the mechanics at optimalised difficulty. I wish more of the game content had this kind of ladder. Ladder that You are supposed to climb, not destroy and ask peoples who already climbed it to carry those on the bottom on their backs for the promise of a candy.

If You have problem joining, heres something You can copy and paste into LFG that will get You players to do T1 with. "T1 Daily, all welcome". You can later swap "T1" into other tiers and "all welcome" into roles requirements, once You climb high enough to need them.

 

[Phyb.6704]

AR should have been put into more areas of the game tbh. It actually gives you a reason to get ascended gear. The truth is legendary you can stat change with a click..... Exotic to legendary has very very very small stat dif that you can do all the content in exotic. The stats do not gate you and are really tiny. So what benefic does ascended have? Why even get it ? The AR. Sadly they used it for fractals and abandoned it everywhere else. I expected with soto it would be a thing since nayyos is through the mists. But nop. Seems like they just abandoned it. 

Also there is better ways to make gold then fractals. 
All the fractals are available as t1.

The stats on berzerk for example go from 45/32/32 to 47/34/34
There is NOTHING that such a small stat dif is going to stop you from easily doing.

Only thing is the CM's as far as content goes.
You can do all the t1 with 0AR. You just need a druid or barrier alac scourge. 

I have done all the t1's on a barrier alac scourge with a group of all 0 AR. Its not hard.
You are not gated from anything but the cm;s.

There is a currency. There is account bount stuff that drops in fractals and you get more of it per day by doing higher teir fractals. That stuff can be exchanged for gear and even account wide upgrades. You get it at t1 but get more of it at t4 so its faster. This is a time gate not an actually wall that blocks you from getting the currency*** which is account bound materials you exchange for stuff from the venders. 

wvw and pvp are w/e since the balance is kitten there is always 3-4 builds that melt everyone else regardless of having 2 more stat pts. 

 

Edited January 19 by ohericoseo.4316

[DanAlcedo.3281]

The moment Wvw Infusions give 5AR, I play Fractals again. 

It's to annoying to switch Infusions. 

And I'm not gonna pay money for +5 stats when I already get that from my Wvw Infusions. 

Edited January 19 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Linken.6345]

About your first point with a unique currency each tier that you can buy cosmetics and utility rewards

all that would do is t4 fractal groups would just do the lower tiers aswell since its easier with a coordinated team them to look for t3,t2 or t1 players and take a longer time to finish said fractals.

About the 2 gear tiers as others have said its exotic then ascended/legendary is already small its close to the same as 1 stat infusion for each piece already so your request is already made.

And what people say get weapon and trinkets since trinket gives more stats and weapon gives base damage strenght both can be got from open world pve namely the weapon especs/random drop and trinkets season 3-5 maps.

Sure the gold is okish for the time but  you can get more if you play openworld bud.

https://fast.farming-community.eu/open-world/solo-farming

So I see no issues with either of your problems.

Edit

And yea about the agony you dont even need a crafter anymore just materials you can get with gold from the tp then go to catbot in fractal lobby and have them make you up to +11 agony infusions I think

Edited January 19 by Linken.6345

[Wojciech.8024]

40 minutes ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

AR should have been put into more areas of the game tbh.
 

Agree! It is a pity that this mechanic is not used more widely.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

i think the problem to me is that agony resist is limited to fractals when it could've been used as generalised vertical progression mechanic. the game has enough horizontal progression for the last decade that some vertical progression wouldn't have hurt, honestly.

 

this is especially true now that you can straight up buy ascended gear from the vault, strike missions and so on.

Edited January 19 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Danikat.8537]

I'm an intermittent/casual Fractal player (I do them occasionally when I want something from them but not often) and the only problem I have with agony resistance is that it's character specific. I've got 10 level 80 characters but only ever do Fractals on 2 of them because it's not worth the hassle of getting agony resistance for the others (especially if they're already using other infusions), but that limits what I can contribute to a group above the lowest levels.

I've actually had the opposite experience in terms of which tiers are more popular, I see a lot more groups for Tier 1 and less for 2 and 3. I think it picks up again at Tier 4, but I've only done those a couple of times. I suspect a lot of people do the same as me - if they're doing a Fractal for the Wizard's Vault or for a collection or achievement they use the lowest tier that will qualify because it's likely to be easier and quicker. (If I just need to do 'a fractal' and it doesn't matter which one I tend to look for groups doing specific ones, especially if they need it for an achievement. When I made Ad Infinitum I really appreciated other people doing that.)

I disagree that it's a problem that ascended equipment mainly comes from the areas of the game which require it. As someone who had no intention of getting it when it first came out and took years to get even 1 character in full ascended I see that as a positive because it tells me I can safely ignore ascended unless I want to play those more difficult areas and if I do then starting to play it will help me get what I need to complete it. (I suppose that ties into agony resistance being character-specific, most of my level 80 characters are still using exotics because they don't do things which need ascended. Although they all have 1 legendary item because I made Ad Infinitum so I'd stop holding onto stupid numbers of spare backpacks.)

Also there already are alternatives besides crafting: you can get rings and accessories (which give the biggest stat difference) from laurel vendors on in Living World maps, some weapons and armour from achievements and a few pieces each season from the Wizard's Vault. It may not be practical to fully gear up a character that way but it's enough to get started, especially for Fractals where you mainly need it as something to slot agony resistance into.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Agony Resistance is supposed to gate players. It's been done on purpose.

Back, when fractals launched, you had three random fractals and then the Jade maw on uneven scales. the Agony Resistance gating was implemented to prevent players to get into scales that were too high for them.

Think a second about this argument. Agony Resistance was something that was preventing players from getting into scales that were "too high" due to Agony. It was always purely artificial restriction, that existed only to justify itself.

No, the real reason for it was twofold: first, it was there to slow down player progression through Fractals (by forcing players to grind for ascended and AR first, before they could progress further). Second, it was there to push players even more towards ascended grind, and thus justify introduction of that gear tier.

Basically, it is a gear progression system pushed into a game that was supposed to not have one. Also, due to how easy both infusions and ascended gear are now to obtain (and the fact that fractal levels are now capped at 100), it turned from content extender into a pure gold tax on fractals. Its original reasons have become completely obsolete by now, and the whole system is even more of a bad fit to the game than it was then (albeit one veteran players got used to, so rarely comment on it). Devs are completely aware of it, btw, and have made multiple comments in the past how they would have liked to revamp the system if not for the economic impact and fear of making billions of infusions already in the game obsolete (and potential player backlash that might have resulted from it).

Edited January 19 by Astralporing.1957

[firedragon.8953]

The reason why fractals are not dead like most other instanced group content is there is a built in gate system. It's not perfect, but fractals are much better at setting expectations for players of similar skill levels.

[kharmin.7683]

3 hours ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

AR should have been put into more areas of the game tbh. It actually gives you a reason to get ascended gear.
 

Hard disagree.  I think that it is great that there is something available for those players who want more difficult game play that is kept separate from open world.  Similarly, I find it nice that the competitive modes are likewise kept separate from open world so that players who don't wish to engage in such content aren't forced to deal with it.

Just as AR gate-keeps players from higher tiers, you seem to be suggesting that it should also be used to gate-keep certain areas of open world content?  Players, like me, don't want to be forced into getting ascended gear.  I've managed to make some ascended weapons because I wanted the skins for them but that's about the extent of it.  I'm glad that I don't feel the need to grind for ascended gear just to complete open world content.  I feel that this is inherent in the game's design.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Think a second about this argument. Agony Resistance was something that was preventing players from getting into scales that were "too high" due to Agony. It was always purely artificial restriction, that existed only to justify itself.

It's not just the agony that rose. The fractals themselves scaled as well. To slowly acclimate players to the rising numbers in higher scales, they were slowed down with the Agony system.

For top end players, it may not have been a problem to do higher scales from the start, if there had been no Agony, but more casual players would have had problems.

It could have been solved in a cleaner way, for example by letting people only access the levels they had already reached themselves, but they didn't do that.

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No, the real reason for it was twofold: first, it was there to slow down player progression through Fractals (by forcing players to grind for ascended and AR first, before they could progress further). Second, it was there to push players even more towards ascended grind, and thus justify introduction of that gear tier.

I don't disagree that that may have been part of their reason, but it certainly is not the entire reasoning.

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Basically, it is a gear progression system pushed into a game that was supposed to not have one. Also, due to how easy both infusions and ascended gear are now to obtain (and the fact that fractal levels are now capped at 100), it turned from content extender into a pure gold tax on fractals. Its original reasons have become completely obsolete by now, and the whole system is even more of a bad fit to the game than it was then (albeit one veteran players got used to, so rarely comment on it). Devs are completely aware of it, btw, and have made multiple comments in the past how they would have liked to revamp the system if not for the economic impact and fear of making billions of infusions already in the game obsolete (and potential player backlash that might have resulted from it).

At the end of the day, every game needs a carrot. An MMO simply can't sustain itself by trying to keep a playerbase alive with only intrinsic rewards. And without a gear treadmill, GW2 needed to find other ways.

I do agree that Agony Resistance is obsolete by now. But with the ample supply of infusions available these days, it's not too difficult to overcome.

Edited January 19 by Fueki.4753

[Teknomancer.4895]

4 hours ago, Parasite.5389 said:

is there a TL:DR for this, because i had to turn on narrator to read this and it still makes no sense

TL:DR  Wall of text full of run-on-sentences complaining about something that's been in the game since 4 months after launch.

Does that help?

[ronkul.1320]

8 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

At the end of the day, every game needs a carrot. An MMO simply can't sustain itself by trying to keep a playerbase alive with only intrinsic rewards. And without a gear treadmill, GW2 needed to find other ways.

Could anet not add more "carrots" in terms of more utility/convenience/customization to ascended gear like they did with legendary gear (i.e. stat swapping on the fly and account-wide unlock and free transmutation charges and free and easy sigil/rune swap)? There may be more ways that we have not thought of that could be "carrots" that would not be clear vertical progression stat-wise and gated via infusions (for agony resistance) for fractals. Gating can be useful like you all said but it is how it is gated that determines the value of the system. The current system is either a gold grind gate or a regular grind gate. It may not gate people who may "not be ready" for harder content based on their skills whether they are actually "ready" but gated unfairly or buy their way there with gold/grind and not be "ready." I think that the progression system of masteries was in the right direction with a horizontal approach but may need to be turned/changed to "check the skill readiness of players."

[ronkul.1320]

And being in the game for a long time does not mean that it is a good system. The said can be said of stuff in the game like the stronghold gamemode for spvp when it came out and was abandoned.

[kharmin.7683]

22 minutes ago, ronkul.1320 said:

Could anet not add more "carrots" in terms of more utility/convenience/customization to ascended gear like they did with legendary gear (i.e. stat swapping on the fly and account-wide unlock and free transmutation charges and free and easy sigil/rune swap)?

What, then, would be the incentive to go for legendary gear?

[ronkul.1320]

There is already some incentives already such as unlimited stat swapping (especially for stats that are harder to get like having to farm specific currencies or gold wise), account-wide unlock for all character (great for alt-holics), no transmutation charges needed (free fashion wars), and easy swap of sigils and runes for non-legendary runes and sigils. They could add more customization or other horizontal approaches for legendaries and add unique ones for ascended gear (that may or may not be included with legendaries). I mean convenience is still a pretty strong carrot (look at the unlimited hair style kit on TP, still pretty expensive). Any suggestions?

[ronkul.1320]

This may be an unpopular suggestion but anet could make it so that if you have a full set of legendary armor and trinkets (not weapons because you can have many combinations of them) you get free random hero point unlocks enough for all specializations per character account wide. Anet is already monetizing hero point unlocks in the gem store (already showing that it is already trivialized content) and they are easy to get individually in game but are tedious to get for true alt-holics (those with full legendary gear tend to have like 15 characters or more). Any other suggestions?

[ronkul.1320]

A friend of mine also had a suggestion (a bold one) where ascended and legendary gear can have the ability to choose individual stats for the stat combination and maybe even stack stacks of one stat instead of having many other different stats in the combination (like all one power stat). I commented saying that anet would have to balance that by either banning some stats combinations or limiting some stat cap values of certain stats in said stat combinations. These limitations/bans should be profession specific and/or elite specialization specific so that you can have a viable stat combination created for one build without having it OP on another build (like celestial elementalists). This could be unlimited choice (with the limitations) in legendary gear, while ascended gear you have to get/farm those stat options (like infusion stats) but still have access to legacy stat combinations (like berserker's or knight's or viper's) for those two gear tiers and exotic and below. This would open build crating even further. Your thoughts?

[Danikat.8537]

Hold on, why are all these suggestions ways to make ascended equipment more desirable/useful outside Fractals? I thought this thread was about problems getting groups or progressing through Fractals.

If the actual problem is you think crafting ascended gear is too expensive for the small stat boost (which isn't required in most of the game) we absolutely can have that conversation, but it's almost entirely seperate from what this topic says it's about.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, ronkul.1320 said:

Could anet not add more "carrots" in terms of more utility/convenience/customization to ascended gear like they did with legendary gear (i.e. stat swapping on the fly and account-wide unlock and free transmutation charges and free and easy sigil/rune swap)? There may be more ways that we have not thought of that could be "carrots" that would not be clear vertical progression stat-wise and gated via infusions (for agony resistance) for fractals. Gating can be useful like you all said but it is how it is gated that determines the value of the system.

legendaries, collections, Masteries, cosmetic infusions, the tiresome weapon crafting collections in the Icebrood Saga, side quests like regrowing Saladbolg, farming the invisible shoes

Arenanet has put in many carrots over the years.

But implementing Ascended gear was a response to players acquiring exotics far quicker than expected. So, even if they had not implement infusions and the Agony system, they'd have put in a gear tier above Exotics.

1 hour ago, ronkul.1320 said:

The current system is either a gold grind gate or a regular grind gate. It may not gate people who may "not be ready" for harder content based on their skills whether they are actually "ready" but gated unfairly or buy their way there with gold/grind and not be "ready." I think that the progression system of masteries was in the right direction with a horizontal approach but may need to be turned/changed to "check the skill readiness of players."

I never implied that I like the system or think it's a good one. I understand the criticisms people have for it these days, but I don't think it's an insurmountable hurdle that needs to be deleted.

19 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

Hold on, why are all these suggestions ways to make ascended equipment more desirable/useful outside Fractals? I thought this thread was about problems getting groups or progressing through Fractals.

If the actual problem is you think crafting ascended gear is too expensive for the small stat boost (which isn't required in most of the game) we absolutely can have that conversation, but it's almost entirely seperate from what this topic says it's about.

It may be one of these "I want to get things from this content, but not actually engage with it and its systems.", like we sometimes see for WvW/sPvP exclusive rewards. Just in this case, it's not exclusive rewards.

Or it might be a case of "I want legendary features without investing time/money into getting an actual legendary".

1 hour ago, ronkul.1320 said:

I mean convenience is still a pretty strong carrot

And that's why legendaries exist: to be the carrot for that convenience

Ascended gear is not intended to be that carrot.

[LSD.4673]

5 hours ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

The truth is legendary you can stat change with a click

Yeah if only. Legendary you can change with a series of pointless clicks, which have to be repeated for weapons/armour/trinkets. 

Gotta get people buying those equip templates, though, eh?

[Fueki.4753]

Just now, LSD.4673 said:

Yeah if only. Legendary you can change with a series of pointless clicks, which have to be repeated for weapons/armour/trinkets. 

Gotta get people buying those equip templates, though, eh?

I miss legendaries being actual items, able to be put into my bags and retaining their customization.