Legendary Relics are Coming Soon

[witchyivy.7980]

6 minutes ago, Minna.7895 said:

I do believe it is the last one, and that's also the one I believed most of the "we" to argument over, but someone earlier pointed out that this also means (hidden but included) for being able to do that potentially uninteresting content you have to firstly BUY it aswell and made that out to be the worst point of it (and potentially the reason for the change? I dunno) - anyways that was where that elitespec reference came in that I answered to.

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying!

7 minutes ago, Minna.7895 said:

This whole 19 pages topic is really weird though in general. This change has so many layers (of wrong) that affect different players in different ways, I guess that might be the reason.

So true. Well, I'm hoping we'll get a little more detail from Anet soon.

[Chille kasper.2946]

I’m wandering what relics will be included in this legendary relic?😅

[yann.1946]

3 hours ago, Minna.7895 said:

(I know it wasn't directed at me but anyways:)

No of course not, they were

a) content in itself in my opinion just like weaponmastery or the new weapons are, they were not part of legendary gear in any way (apples/bananas)

Don't relics fullfil a similar role? Enabling builds etc. of course in a way smaller degree.

3 hours ago, Minna.7895 said:

b) you were able to have them unlocked as soon as the expansion dropped and not only after the first playthrough or whatever achievements - there are always enough hp in coretyria+ former expansions to have them ready to go instantly

This was only through after hots hps reqs reduced substantially. And that only works if you have played the class before. If I make a new character I can use the legendary gear immediately, the same can't be said about elite specs. 

I would argue that the new legendary relics reqs are less restrictive then elite specs where.

3 hours ago, Minna.7895 said:

But ofc I do see that this was mostly focused on the "having to BUY the expansion to get access" thing, I'm not even sure that that is the biggest issue with the current change, to me it really is more the "don't get access instantly even if you bought it" thing - but yeah they should just behave like any other legendary gear and be available (even if you didn't buy but as I said, not my biggest complaint).

I understand the annoyance and fair that comes from the change. But I was mostly responding to the complained about having to buy expacs.

My opinion on the relic itself is slightly more nuanced.

[Linken.6345]

2 hours ago, Chille kasper.2946 said:

I’m wandering what relics will be included in this legendary relic?😅

From what they said it will be all core and all the SotO ones even the ones that may come with patch 4,  expac 5 and beyond you will have to buy said expansion and then unlock them.

[WRay.2391]

22 hours ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

I actually think it's likely Anet underestimated or didn't consider the amount of push back they would get from legendary rune owners. I don't think they originally intended to give any compensation towards the legendary relic, then they realised they had to do something, then after thinking about it a while they decided it was easiest or best just to give it to anyone who had a legendary rune.

Note that if I'm correct then this isn't a case of not being transparent, it's a case of having to adapt to the situation. They can't tell you things they haven't decided or realised yet.

If that is truly what they think then yes they should perhaps say that. However, I'm pretty sure Anet don't think that, it's what you think. As mentioned above I think Anet misjudged the depth of feeling over the legendary runes but let's face it Anet have made legendary relics work this way because that's how they want them to work.

It's conceivable they could also be a model for future legendaries but they might not be too, or there might not be any further legendaries for years - either way it would be foolish for Anet to say anything about things in the future until it's firmly planned. That's not a case of failing to be transparent, that's sensible business practices!

It's obviously opinions, but I'm pretty confident they didn't think legendary runes nerf by adding relics at all, and I know I'm not alone here.

You told they are transparent, but transparency and "sensible business practice" are usually at opposite side of the spectrum, I hope you acknowledge that at least.

[Minna.7895]

10 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

Don't relics fullfil a similar role? Enabling builds etc. of course in a way smaller degree.

No, they don't. Relics are part of gear, not build. (Anet even made a clear distinction themselves between those two, mostly to double dip with the template system)

10 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

This was only through after hots hps reqs reduced substantially.

Because of the backlash it got changed, correct. 

10 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

And that only works if you have played the class before. If I make a new character I can use the legendary gear immediately, the same can't be said about elite specs. 

But you can only do that if you played enough beforehand (no matter on what class) and invested huge amounts of gold to craft the legendary gear aswell. With the new relic they call legendary but isn't you can't do that- no matter if you played the class before or the game enough to get legendary gear. Kinda the whole point of this debacle.

10 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

I would argue that the new legendary relics reqs are less restrictive then elite specs where.

apples vs. bananas // gear vs. builds , and btw even if we just talk relics and not the specific case of legendary - because that is what you have to look at cause there is no "legendary elite specialisation", it's no gear.

Last but not least- we don't know yet exactly how restrictive the normal relics (or the unlock for legy) will be, but I don't think there is anything less restrictive than earning hp for unlocking elites, they are as easy and straightforward as it gets. If the current relics are anything to go by- earning hp is way less restrictive (kill one single mob or press f (hp) vs. give npc 250 currency or do this and that specific achievement with maybe even 5-10 tasks (1 single relic))

10 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

 

I understand the annoyance and fair that comes from the change. But I was mostly responding to the complained about having to buy expacs.

My opinion on the relic itself is slightly more nuanced.

 

Maybe this could be a direction for compromise between anet and playerbase though? To unlock the new relics you gotta buy the new expac, but if you do they will be available immediately? Like you know all other legendaries are anyways, because that is usually kinda the point in making them, especially runes. Why especially runes: Even if you take the older not so inflated price they were around ~300 gold?, so full set (let's be realistic it was always about the 6th runebonus + the convenience) ~1800/2100g ... seeing that even the most expensive runes were around 10-15g, the most used ones more around 2-8g and many good and also often used ones even way under ... you'll never break even. I doubt many people would have even bothered if those changes were made known at the time, or will bother much in the future for that matter. Maybe when the prices drop really low again one day.

[GeraldBC.4927]

On 2/19/2024 at 2:19 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Problem is that if they are fine with changing a precedent like that, they may decide to change other precedents as well. Also, the change itself may seem minor, but the consequences of that change are anything but. Basically, it's a first step on a path where Legendaries are no longer "future-proofed" against any forms of gear grind. And once a first exception is made, it becomes much, much  easier to add a second one.

That is the primary fear behind complains. It's not about the change itself, but the implied change in design direction behind it.

Also, if it's indeed so minor, they should have no issue with dropping that idea, right?

The question I'd like to ask is: Do they need to be 'future-proof'? The reason to get legendaries should be so you can flip them around willy-nilly, not to lock yourself out of playing the newest thing in the future. The latter seems rather anti-fun and if they're ditching that, I'd say good riddance.

I was looking forward to grinding the new content to collect components and craft the legendary relic, but if it's true that we just get the legendary relic gifted for having legendary runes, then there's game mechanically no reason for me to do so. 

That's also the same reason why I don't mind power creep being locked behind new content, at least if getting there involves actually grinding the new content. Getting to share in the power creep is your reward for engaging with the new content. 

[Astralporing.1957]

10 minutes ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

The question I'd like to ask is: Do they need to be 'future-proof'?

Do they need to? No. Practically nothing about design principles of any game is a "have to". Tehere are always multiple options to choose, and quite often they are equally valid,  just appealing to different players. However, once you do decide on certain design, and certain playerbase, and create some assumptions about the future of the game, thn you change them at your peril.

In short, there's nothing that makes devs need to keep their word to the playerbase, but if they won't, the loss of trust is not something that's easy to repair.

14 minutes ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

The reason to get legendaries should be so you can flip them around willy-nilly, not to lock yourself out of playing the newest thing in the future. The latter seems rather anti-fun and if they're ditching that, I'd say good riddance.

I do not intend to lock myself out of playing the newest thing in the future. What i do not want is having to prepare to have fun. That's what i consider to be anti-fun.

17 minutes ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

That's also the same reason why I don't mind power creep being locked behind new content, at least if getting there involves actually grinding the new content. Getting to share in the power creep is your reward for engaging with the new content.

Personally, i'd rather avoid both power creep and the need to grind in order to keep up. Because being allowed to work to stay at the same spot is hardly a reward.

[Ashantara.8731]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Personally, i'd rather avoid both power creep and the need to grind in order to keep up. Because being allowed to work to stay at the same spot is hardly a reward.

This.

I miss the days where you mainly played for the fun of the content. Now it's mainly "grind, grind, grind."

[yann.1946]

4 hours ago, Minna.7895 said:

No, they don't. Relics are part of gear, not build. (Anet even made a clear distinction themselves between those two, mostly to double dip with the template system)

While I understand that anet made the distinction. Relic do serve more to the actual build side. Since they are mostly about skill interactions etc. that is the reason somw people complained about the summoning type runes disappearing. Their build got taken away. 

4 hours ago, Minna.7895 said:

Because of the backlash it got changed, correct. 

Yes.

4 hours ago, Minna.7895 said:

But you can only do that if you played enough beforehand (no matter on what class) and invested huge amounts of gold to craft the legendary gear aswell. With the new relic they call legendary but isn't you can't do that- no matter if you played the class before or the game enough to get legendary gear. Kinda the whole point of this debacle.

Yes. But this could Al be done on one class. On the other hand skill points have to be gathered on every new class. Now the initial investment is bigger for legendary gear, but the gains are also bigger.  

This point doesn't really matter for the bigger case though

4 hours ago, Minna.7895 said:

apples vs. bananas // gear vs. builds , and btw even if we just talk relics and not the specific case of legendary - because that is what you have to look at cause there is no "legendary elite specialisation", it's no gear.

 

4 hours ago, Minna.7895 said:

Last but not least- we don't know yet exactly how restrictive the normal relics (or the unlock for legy) will be, but I don't think there is anything less restrictive than earning hp for unlocking elites, they are as easy and straightforward as it gets. If the current relics are anything to go by- earning hp is way less restrictive (kill one single mob or press f (hp) vs. give npc 250 currency or do this and that specific achievement with maybe even 5-10 tasks (1 single relic))

This to me is an important point. How difficult will the relics be to get. Personally, I don't think any singular relic is difficult to get. But a broader analysis would be important.

For me, the price is more important then the difficulty though. But only by a little bit.

They should be just enough to make people interact with the new content. (The once associated with the exotic weapon collection are slightly to intensive in this context)

4 hours ago, Minna.7895 said:

Maybe this could be a direction for compromise between anet and playerbase though? To unlock the new relics you gotta buy the new expac, but if you do they will be available immediately? Like you know all other legendaries are anyways, because that is usually kinda the point in making them, especially runes. Why especially runes: Even if you take the older not so inflated price they were around ~300 gold?, so full set (let's be realistic it was always about the 6th runebonus + the convenience) ~1800/2100g ... seeing that even the most expensive runes were around 10-15g, the most used ones more around 2-8g and many good and also often used ones even way under ... you'll never break even. I doubt many people would have even bothered if those changes were made known at the time, or will bother much in the future for that matter. Maybe when the prices drop really low again one day.

While I have no problem with the principle, and even think that is better. Because ATM if you don't have a specific expac legendaries are a strict power increase and not just a qol.

But this will be perceived as worse, because of the need to pay money (see the person I responded to originally for example)

[yann.1946]

12 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

This.

I miss the days where you mainly played for the fun of the content. Now it's mainly "grind, grind, grind."

I don't think much has changed though. It's just that the people who keep grinding stay longer between update cycles.

[Labjax.2465]

9 hours ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

The question I'd like to ask is: Do they need to be 'future-proof'? The reason to get legendaries should be so you can flip them around willy-nilly, not to lock yourself out of playing the newest thing in the future. The latter seems rather anti-fun and if they're ditching that, I'd say good riddance.

I was looking forward to grinding the new content to collect components and craft the legendary relic, but if it's true that we just get the legendary relic gifted for having legendary runes, then there's game mechanically no reason for me to do so. 

That's also the same reason why I don't mind power creep being locked behind new content, at least if getting there involves actually grinding the new content. Getting to share in the power creep is your reward for engaging with the new content. 

To keep the following point focused, let's just imagine that going into POF release, you have the legendary armory back then and you can have full legendaries by that point. Would going into it in that state "lock you out of playing it as the newest thing"? POF's big thing, from what I recall, was mounts. Not gear related at all. When I played it first time, I remember having to do some figuring out on what order to do mount unlocks and mastery points in to make sure I could go smoothly through it, but I don't remember any gear grind.

Why it is that Anet used to be able to do that kind of progression as a selling point for goals pertaining to new content and is now resorting to cutting up existing gear and moving it elsewhere, I don't see the justification or the sense when at least some of their team(s) (dunno if same people by now) proved so many times over that you don't strictly need gear grind goals in order to give people interesting forms of progression to chase. I mean, one of the things I was doing at times between working on legendaries (when I was playing the game) was chasing achievement point goals. I would also chase wardrobe unlock goals. Or mount race goals. Or jump puzzle goals. It's not as though the game was lacking for ideas on how to give people stuff to do that isn't gear grind. I put a significant amount of energy into beating the clock tower puzzle one halloween, or getting gold on some of the toughest beetle races. I still miss sometimes, how it felt, challenging myself with those kind of goals: struggling, evaluating, doing reflection on my approach and on myself, and eventually overcoming. All without a single piece of gear involved.

I just don't understand how they can look at a game littered with creative experiments in horizontal progression, one of them so influential (mounts) it showed up in some form in another game, and we are supposed to believe vertical is needed to keep people's attention.

[Ashen.2907]

10 hours ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

not to lock yourself out of playing the newest thing in the future.

Having "future proof" legendaries does not, in any way, lock one out of playing the newest thing in the future. Every piece of content released has been played by people with legendaries.

[Healix.5819]

4 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Why it is that Anet used to be able to do that kind of progression as a selling point for goals pertaining to new content and is now resorting to cutting up existing gear and moving it elsewhere, I don't see the justification or the sense when at least some of their team(s) (dunno if same people by now) proved so many times over that you don't strictly need gear grind goals in order to give people interesting forms of progression to chase.

It's not like cutting up existing gear is going to be a regular occurrence. Runes forcing you to take stats or bonuses you don't want has been complained about from the beginning. This change should have happened back when they dropped stats from trait lines over similar complaints. No other pieces are like this, so it'll never happen again.

The legendary change wasn't really needed for relics. It does allow for more possibilities, but they could have done the same thing with ascended relics. If they just wanted you to collect them all, they could have simply locked a great reward behind the collection, which is how they'd do this for the existing legendaries. What this change does allow is for them to continue trickling out legendaries for all of the remaining slots that would have otherwise never had one.

[Linken.6345]

29 minutes ago, Healix.5819 said:

It's not like cutting up existing gear is going to be a regular occurrence. Runes forcing you to take stats or bonuses you don't want has been complained about from the beginning. This change should have happened back when they dropped stats from trait lines over similar complaints. No other pieces are like this, so it'll never happen again.

The legendary change wasn't really needed for relics. It does allow for more possibilities, but they could have done the same thing with ascended relics. If they just wanted you to collect them all, they could have simply locked a great reward behind the collection, which is how they'd do this for the existing legendaries. What this change does allow is for them to continue trickling out legendaries for all of the remaining slots that would have otherwise never had one.

You mean under water breather thats the only slot left?

Edit

Because legendary harvesting tools wont happen Anet want you to pay more then once for those if your lazy.

Edited February 24 by Linken.6345

[Healix.5819]

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

You mean under water breather thats the only slot left?

Glyphs, enrichments, chips and arrays. For infusions and cores, they'll need to finally make a choice about stats; they've been holding back the higher stat infusions the entire time. Legendary bait could allow bait to be pulled from the material storage, but it would either be easy to get, or implemented as a UI change, since its purpose would be to solve the bait problem.

The aqua breather is reserved for the underwater expansion that has been hinted from the beginning, but will probably never happen. It'll be like the existing legendaries if they ever do it.

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

Because legendary harvesting tools wont happen Anet want you to pay more then once for those if your lazy.

They're possible and they'd probably make more money by doing it, but no matter what they do, people are going to complain. They would require materials (could be traded) that were salvaged from the infinite tools (probably requiring ascended kits to attempt); you'd need multiple tools per legendary.

Edited February 24 by Healix.5819

[Labjax.2465]

4 hours ago, Healix.5819 said:

It's not like cutting up existing gear is going to be a regular occurrence. Runes forcing you to take stats or bonuses you don't want has been complained about from the beginning. This change should have happened back when they dropped stats from trait lines over similar complaints. No other pieces are like this, so it'll never happen again.

The legendary change wasn't really needed for relics. It does allow for more possibilities, but they could have done the same thing with ascended relics. If they just wanted you to collect them all, they could have simply locked a great reward behind the collection, which is how they'd do this for the existing legendaries. What this change does allow is for them to continue trickling out legendaries for all of the remaining slots that would have otherwise never had one.

It sounds like you are talking about something else (correct me if I'm wrong). I am talking about taking away something people already had and repackaging it. I am not talking about changing the form of something that was there, but ensuring that it is still effectively the same thing in terms of what people have earned. Had legendary relic change functionally been: "we thought rune bonuses were annoying and complicated, so we moved all of them to relics and here is some compensation to ensure your progress on relics effectively matches your progress on runes," I doubt many would have complained. Instead, they moved them to relics for the purpose of tying them to new (paid) content incentive/rewards, effectively paywalling what people already had and introducing a kind of gear grind. And they are introducing a design inconsistency into the legendary system, which would suggest that they plan to either let the game be more confusing going forward, or use the confusion they are introducing as an excuse to also make other legendaries not be future-proof going forward. The first one of those two is at odds with the idea of relics making the game easier to understand and the second is at odds with what legendaries are known for being.

[Omega.6801]

8 hours ago, Healix.5819 said:

It's not like cutting up existing gear is going to be a regular occurrence. Runes forcing you to take stats or bonuses you don't want has been complained about from the beginning. This change should have happened back when they dropped stats from trait lines over similar complaints. No other pieces are like this, so it'll never happen again.

The legendary change wasn't really needed for relics. It does allow for more possibilities, but they could have done the same thing with ascended relics. If they just wanted you to collect them all, they could have simply locked a great reward behind the collection, which is how they'd do this for the existing legendaries. What this change does allow is for them to continue trickling out legendaries for all of the remaining slots that would have otherwise never had one.

You know they could just keep inventing slots? I mean it's hard speculation but the ideas are out there, in this and in other threads on the topic of relics and ANet introducing a new type of gear this late into the game. It's their game they can do with it what they want. If they want to remove 10% of the stats from ascended/legendary amulets and move it over to a new category of gear, they can do it. Again, very speculative, but they can do it and since it happened with relics I'm not so sure about "it will never happen" as I was two years ago.

[Ziltus.6803]

Any idea what will happen to those free  relic chests that came with SOTO launch? Some of us opened the chests for the same few popular relics like thief, flock etc but if we know how the leggy relic works, many will probably open the chests for different relics to unlock as many different relics as possible. Just wonder if Anet is gonna do anything about it?

[Linken.6345]

40 minutes ago, Ziltus.6803 said:

Any idea what will happen to those free  relic chests that came with SOTO launch? Some of us opened the chests for the same few popular relics like thief, flock etc but if we know how the leggy relic works, many will probably open the chests for different relics to unlock as many different relics as possible. Just wonder if Anet is gonna do anything about it?

Just salvage all relics to get symbols out of them mate.

Core relics should be auto enabled.

[Gehenna.3625]

8 hours ago, Ziltus.6803 said:

Any idea what will happen to those free  relic chests that came with SOTO launch? Some of us opened the chests for the same few popular relics like thief, flock etc but if we know how the leggy relic works, many will probably open the chests for different relics to unlock as many different relics as possible. Just wonder if Anet is gonna do anything about it?

As far as I understand it, the legendary relics will include all core relics and SoTO relics. They specifically mentioned this for SoTO relics, but I suspect that it also goes for core relics. There are still achievements related to these relics (collections) and I would think that you still have to get the individual relics to complete these collections.

[raykor.6723]

Six months of waiting for the legendary relic and it still didn't include any of the missing rune effects. Is it asking too much for a statement from ANET? I just want to know if they are planning to someday bring back the missing effects or are they permanently gone from the game.

[Luthan.5236]

The legendary for having 1 free rune (I did not make more than 1) arrived correctly. A box at the bottom right next to the green star (for indicating the new story chapter). I wonder about the recipe: The achievement shows mostly normal stuff. Not tooo expensive compared to the other legendary stuff. The Facet thing seems interesting though. Says you need 1 relic for that thing you need to craft 25 times or so. Means 25 relics. (Then the lucent crystals - they should not be that expensive.) If this can use any relic (even the ones from achievements and cheap from WvW vendor) it should not be that expensive ...

... or so I thought. Wiki lists the price alraedy not too high but having to do it 25 times can be costly. Seems the 3 times 250 lucent crystals (and that *25) can drive the price a bit. I wonder if prices for lucent motes/crystals will increase making it even more costly.

On the other hand: The charm prices might drop then. Not needed here and people only rushed at them for making 1 legenary rune.

[Sobx.1758]

27 minutes ago, Luthan.5236 said:

I wonder if prices for lucent motes/crystals will increase

They already did, always might increase more though 😄

Edited February 27 by Sobx.1758

[Labjax.2465]

4 hours ago, raykor.6723 said:

Six months of waiting for the legendary relic and it still didn't include any of the missing rune effects. Is it asking too much for a statement from ANET? I just want to know if they are planning to someday bring back the missing effects or are they permanently gone from the game.

No it's not too much. In fact, it's very little to ask. And them unpinning this thread won't magically cease it and the other concerns brought up.