Mastery Points are a scourge in GW2

[someguy.4107]

   Never gave Masteries much thought until seeing "Astral Ward Mastery Extended" on the last patch preview. Reflecting on my experiences from the first mastery to the last (currently 530) revealed how absolutely awful the Mastery system is. Recently, my brother got his Griffon mount. After congratulating him I tell him how to fly, build speed, etc. He replies that he can't. There was no Swoop or disengage skill while airborne... He spent 100g for a more efficient glider because he didn't have the Griffon masteries done. I take him to some IBS strikes for easy ascended gear. We kill the boss then are presented with three large, shiny chests... That he can't open. Killed the boss. No masteries so no loot. 

   A large portion of Mastery Points are the ability to press "F" on things. Mount masteries are even worse for locking baseline features behind another time gate. Even the masteries that make sense, like "Crystal Champion" that give additional abilities to mounts, could have been fun quests to unlock the new skills. Instead, it's more time gated Mastery Point shenanigans that kills player expectations. I couldn't count the times I wanted to bring a friend along to a new area only to remember that they either: can't exist in the area, can't interact with anything/anyone or sometimes can't even loot open world containers. 

   I think Masteries were introduced in HoT to prevent players from blazing through the expansion. I'm probably wrong but who really knows? In the modern GW2 Mastery Points make it impossible to bring new players anywhere outside of the core game. Even when players achieve big milestones, like getting their griffon/ or x, they can't relish in the accomplishment due to having to continue to grind for the masteries tied to said achievement. It's akin to crossing the finish line only to have to run another lap. Yeah you did it, but the stands are empty and the lights are off now. Yeah you got your fishing pole, but you need to grind for 20-30 hours so you can cast farther than 5ft.

   I think it's too late to remove the Mastery system. It's tangled in so many things. Wanted to at least get some feedback on how this system negatively affects players experience, inclusion and expectations. Does anyone else have these problems, or am I alone here?

[Teknomancer.4895]

You missed mentioning peak masteries: grind boring content, so you can grind that boring content better. Not even kidding.

[kiroho.4738]

Tldr: "I hate masteries, because I want all features for free without any effort".

 

That's not how games work.

Edited February 21 by kiroho.4738

[someguy.4107]

22 minutes ago, kiroho.4738 said:

Tldr: "I hate masteries, because I want all features for free without any effort".

 

That's not how games work.

Actual TLDR: I wanted to play non-core GW2 with my brother and couldn't because he didn't have all the masteries to press "F" on things.

These features weren't free. Both of us paid money for the content. Content that's time gated with the Mastery system. It sucks when my brother unlocks the next mount and I can hear him audibly sigh at how inferior his is to everyone else's. 

[Sobx.1758]

3 minutes ago, someguy.4107 said:

Actual TLDR: I wanted to play non-core GW2 with my brother and couldn't because he didn't have all the masteries to press "F" on things.

These features weren't free. Both of us paid money for the content. Content that's time gated with the Mastery system. It sucks when my brother unlocks the next mount and I can hear him audibly sigh at how inferior his is to everyone else's. 

So he couldn't play because he didn't have some masteries? That doesn't sound right.

44 minutes ago, someguy.4107 said:

I take him to some IBS strikes for easy ascended gear. We kill the boss then are presented with three large, shiny chests... That he can't open. Killed the boss. No masteries so no loot. 

Ah, now it's clear. See, the tldr isn't that "he couldn't play without masteries" (exotics are so bad now? -no, they aren't). It's that you wanted to instantly progress drag him through content to ascended while -from the sound of it?- he can't be bothered playing the game.

Masteries are k for players actually playing the game. And don't confuse that with me talking about "long term players", unlocking some masteries isn't hard or long even for new ones, as long as they actually want to play the game.

[Omega.6801]

I felt that way, whenever a Mastery gated something like story or map progression.

Other than that my perception of Masteries is just different. It's not like I can't relish in my accomplishment because achieving something I have to grind even further, the accomplishment is maxing out the Mastery. It's not that I reach the finish line and then I have to run another lap, the race is just a lap longer. If you know what I mean.

Not to say that the system is perfect. Far from it. Masteries that are only useful in a single map are just bad design and things like the IBS chest feel very bad if you're the only one in the squad who can't open them.

[idpersona.3810]

14 minutes ago, someguy.4107 said:

Actual TLDR: I wanted to play non-core GW2 with my brother and couldn't because he didn't have all the masteries to press "F" on things.

These features weren't free. Both of us paid money for the content. Content that's time gated with the Mastery system. It sucks when my brother unlocks the next mount and I can hear him audibly sigh at how inferior his is to everyone else's. 

While that does sound frustrating (I can sympathize, I play with my family members when they feel like it), a change in perspective may help. As opposed to wanting him to do things at your speed, slow down to his. If he can't get across a ravine or something for example (PoF) take the longer route and work with him to get those points he needs for longjump (as an example I played through).

Realize that your mastery level isn't the default. There are ways around all or most of this obviously, but there is something to be said for re-experiencing the game through a slower play-through. The extra loot from those chests doesn't really count for much. And knowing what you know, you can help him make better decisions on where to spend his initial mastery points to improve his play-through experience.

Edited February 21 by idpersona.3810

[someguy.4107]

I give up. I wanted to show family and friends some cool bosses, maps, etc., and it sucked when they didn't get rewarded for completing the same content. Wanted to open up some feedback that maybe others didn't think about. I didn't for the longest time. Yet, this tread turned into me being the worst person ever, and I need to change my perspective about peoples disappointment.

[kiroho.4738]

16 hours ago, someguy.4107 said:

Actual TLDR: I wanted to play non-core GW2 with my brother and couldn't because he didn't have all the masteries to press "F" on things.

It's called progession.

But what content exactly couldn't you play together?

 

17 hours ago, someguy.4107 said:

I take him to some IBS strikes for easy ascended gear. We kill the boss then are presented with three large, shiny chests... That he can't open. Killed the boss. No masteries so no loot. 

So you did play together...
Your friend just did not get the bonus chests.

It is as I said -> You want stuff for free without any effort.

 

Edited February 22 by kiroho.4738

[Sobx.1758]

13 minutes ago, someguy.4107 said:

I give up. I wanted to show family and friends some cool bosses, maps, etc., and it sucked when they didn't get rewarded for completing the same content. Wanted to open up some feedback that maybe others didn't think about. I didn't for the longest time. Yet, this tread turned into me being the worst person ever

Or, who knows, maybe he could be bothered playing the game, maybe it's just that you made it into a goal that you'll drag a new player through strike missions "for easy ascended gear". Let the new player learn and enjoy the game instead of rushing him to endgame just because you're there.
Want to show him the game? Take him to ibs, it's not like ow and meta events don't have bosses and after he gets masteries "for the loot", get to SMs.
Then again, if you just wanted to show him content then... you did, even if he didn't max out on the rewards. Either it's about showing him the content or about skipping everything just to carry him to "easy ascended gear". What I know is in your OP you literally wrote you "took him to strike missions for easy ascended gear". Nobody here makes you into a "worst person ever", people literally commented on what you wrote.

Edited February 21 by Sobx.1758

[Randulf.7614]

1 hour ago, someguy.4107 said:

    I think Masteries were introduced in HoT to prevent players from blazing through the expansion

Partly yes, but their history is a bit deeper than that. Masteries were developed from a community idea on the forums. We had something called the "collaborative development initiative" (CDI) after the disasterous reception to the original version of LS1 and headed by a lead developer, ideas were put forth, analysed and refined. One of the leading popular ideas was horizontal progression based on metroidvanias. This developed into the masteries system that was added to HoT

Edited February 21 by Randulf.7614

[idpersona.3810]

8 minutes ago, someguy.4107 said:

I give up. I wanted to show family and friends some cool bosses, maps, etc., and it sucked when they didn't get rewarded for completing the same content. Wanted to open up some feedback that maybe others didn't think about. I didn't for the longest time. Yet, this tread turned into me being the worst person ever, and I need to change my perspective about peoples disappointment.

Mind you, you'll feel how you feel. But (for my part) that wasn't my point. You still get rewards. Just not bonus rewards. But in the end, it's not like those bonus rewards make or break fun (again, imo). They're just that. A slight bonus. There are tons of ways to rush your brother's progress. Jump on a mesmer or a turtle mount and you can get your brother to a lot of spots he would otherwise need to wait on. If you want ascended gear, just throw some of your gold at his account. It doesn't cost overly much to max out a crafting profession. And then each ascended piece is about 30-35g.

Speaking for me, the rewards aren't the fun of playing with family.

In the end, it's a game. Explore the world. Follow along. He's still seeing those bosses. He's still getting rewards. The maps are still beautiful.

Edit: oh, and to add: if you are on NA and need help at any point, just reach out if you see me on.

Edited February 21 by idpersona.3810

[synk.6907]

I've always viewed masteries as a kind of way to add levels without changing the level cap. Your gear and build aren't impacted, but you still need to level up in the content to Do All of the Things.

 

Interesting to me is on the first read of the OP it sounds like OP forgot this happened and was expecting a new(er) account to just jump in. Not arguing for/against, just observing.

Edited February 21 by synk.6907

[Teknomancer.4895]

15 minutes ago, synk.6907 said:

I've always viewed masteries as a kind of way to add levels without changing the level cap. Your gear and build aren't impacted, but you still need to level up in the content to Do All of the Things.

To be fair though, requiring a mastery just to open a lootbox is not-great design.

"Cool, you did all of the stuff required to open the Wizard's Tower! Run in and get your loot while it remains open!"

Except not, if you don't have the "graciously allowed to play a required minigame before you open a lootbox filled with mediocre junk" masteries.

That is simply bad design.

[Omega.6801]

4 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

To be fair though, requiring a mastery just to open a lootbox is not-great design.

"Cool, you did all of the stuff required to open the Wizard's Tower! Run in and get your loot while it remains open!"

Except not, if you don't have the "graciously allowed to play a required minigame before you open a lootbox filled with mediocre junk" masteries.

That is simply bad design.

True. If you're not going for the legendary armor, SotO masteries don't offer much outside of the Skyscale stuff. The ability to open a chest is not a great reward, the chest should be the reward and to have a second tier of that Mastery wasted on the ability to open even bigger chests doesn't help either.
I like Masteries the most that give you mobility options, the metroidvania stuff. Masteries that give abilities usually fall a bit flat, depending on what it is.

[synk.6907]

4 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

To be fair though, requiring a mastery just to open a lootbox is not-great design.

Absolutely valid take! I absolutely get where OP, you, and others are coming from here. They have to give some kind of reward for unlocking more levels, but not all of them feel that interesting or engaging. I kind of rolled my eyes when I first looked at SotO content and saw two masteries for basically the same thing, lesser and greater chests, for example.

Edited February 22 by synk.6907

[Tiamat.8254]

One of the biggest problems I have is the majority of masteries are pretty useless outside of the expansions or, like the recent skyscale masteries, feels like a con when I already have the skyscale masteries from previous expansion.

However, I do think the system is good, just implementation is poor. When bouncing mushrooms were introduced, why are there none anywhere else in the world? The grapple in draconis Mons, awesome mastery, but only available in one map. 

I do not agree with them being available as soon as you get the game or expansion, but they have made improvements to it where you can buy potions of mastery experience from the AA store. 

[Flowersunshine.7385]

HoT masteries really made HoT-map traversel from nearly impossible to just time consuming. Now these masteries were grindy af. Any masteries after didn't take nearly as long to complete. And as soon as you have the raptor and bunny, you can get pretty much everywhere - maybe with exception TD, the wallow mastery is really needed there.

Since most masteries are movement related, I don't think they are the barrier that they were in the time they were first introduced. Exception might be autoloot, but I'm a great fan of first letting people enjoy central Tyria before they are dragged everywhere else. But I'm a filthy casual. On the other hand, if you mainly want strikes and raids, no need for masteries there really.

Edited February 22 by Flowersunshine.7385

[DanAlcedo.3281]

The word grind lost all meaning. 

Character/Account progression isn't wanted anymore it seems. Better get everything from just login in. 

This IS the age of Participation thropy kids after all. Only thar even participating is to much now. 

[Ashen.2907]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So he couldn't play because he didn't have some masteries? That doesn't sound right.

Of course it doesnt sound right, because thats not what he said. 

[Ashen.2907]

Overall I dont mind the mastery system, but I am not at all fond of many of those tied to a specific are rarely to be used again. I absolutely despise having to have a mastery to open the chest after defeating a boss. Nope, keeping nine other players alive and buffed was not sufficient effort to get full rewards for the mission.

[Manpag.6421]

I think Path of Fire actually has the best masteries, because very few of them are outright barriers to progress, outside of needing Canyon Jumping on raptor to get past a certain point in the map. Even then, there are enough tools around that a player without it can be easily helped past that.

Put it this way: to unlock griffon, you need to complete the PoF story. Just completing those story chapters gives you 12 mastery points, precisely the amount you need to max out griffon. You get another mastery point for unlocking each of the PoF mounts, so that's another 5 just for doing bare minimum progress through the expansion and unlocking griffon. There are 40 mastery insights (the ones you just walk up to and channel) spread across the maps, which can be teleported to if someone physically lacks the right masteries to get there themselves, and another 28 earnable through achievements in those maps that vary from quite challenging and time consuming through to very easy. That's enough to unlock all the rest of the mount masteries and then some, though not all are needed so you could very easily prioritise just the ones relevant to griffon. LWS4 gives you access to even more, with 27 easy mastery insights available across all the maps (which is also plenty enough to max out Crystal Champion, which is more useful than a lot of the shared mount masteries). I don't think it's wrong for the game to give you mounts as a tool to explore the world, then expect you to use them to fully power them up.

HoT, IBS, and SotO, though, I think miss the mark a bit. With all of them, you have some universally useful, absolutely must-have masteries like gliding, United Legions Waystation, and skyscale masteries, and then a bunch that are either needed to traverse select maps, get loot in select maps, or not die to select map mechanics. They suck if you don't have them and find yourself needing them, but also feel like a waste of mastery points compared to the more widely useable ones.

I also quite like how EoD did it, because they're kind of all optional, and all useful for totally different things. Not all masteries will appeal to all players, but there's plenty enough mastery points to max out all of them, and with them being so optional/situational it's much easier to prioritise and only max the ones important to you first.

[Ashantara.8731]

I have to agree that many Masteries are utterly useless, making them feel like a pointless grind.

I started building up my alt account late December, and I have already fully equipped three builds with ascended gear and 150 AR. My advantage is that I know the game inside out and therefore knew what Masteries to level first (and where), what content to play (example: how to get into T4 Fractal groups when the account is still T1), etc.

We can't pretend in good conscience that the bulk of existing Masteries isn't overwhelming for new players. This is a serious issue, I am sure, and we shouldn't be downplaying it or calling those new players "lazy".

Edited February 22 by Ashantara.8731

[Padrion.7382]

21 hours ago, someguy.4107 said:

 I think it's too late to remove the Mastery system. It's tangled in so many things. Wanted to at least get some feedback on how this system negatively affects players experience, inclusion and expectations. Does anyone else have these problems, or am I alone here?

Well, getting mastery points is THE main endgame content and the heart and soul of horizontal progression. If getting them was trivial or if they had next to no impact there wouldn't be any progression nor much reason to keep on playing post lvl 80. I personally think the system is nothing short of brilliant. I have my gripes with a lot of systems in GW2 but masteries are certainly not one of them. Therefore the "problems" you describe are the exact reasons I have so much fun in this game.

Edited February 22 by Padrion.7382

[Teknomancer.4895]

7 minutes ago, Padrion.7382 said:

I personally think the system is nothing short but brilliant.

Agreed, the mastery system itself is a great way of achieving the "horizontal progression" the game was aiming for.

But as discussed earlier, a lot of the individual masteries within that system are straight up hot garbage.